Outdoor boiler advice

[Plum Hollow]

I am new to this site and have already learned a lot. We live in Canada in a large (about 3,000 sq ft) two unit farm house. Currently we heat using an oil furnace for the one unit and a wood/oil combo furnace for our side. Both furnaces are in the basement with no dividing wall between them. Because insurance companies are getting nervous about houses heated with oil and with even more so with wood/oil combo furnaces we are starting to look into our options for the future. We live on 400+ acres of mostly woodland so firewood is not an issue, but we are in our late 50's and don't want to keep processing 20 cords a year - 10 cords would be lovely!

Seems like we could go with a high efficiency wood furnace in the basement and duct it thru the existing ductwork. The other obvious option would be to install an outdoor wood gassification boiler.

Any advice for us? Does anyone know how insurance companies look at gassification furnaces? Any recommendations as to which brands are better than others? I understand that we need a backup heating source to keep the insurance company happy - any recommendation as to what to use (propane or electric are the options for us)

 

[ihookem]

There is no doubt a gassifier is safer. The exhaust funes are low enough that it can hardly ignite paper. It also burns all the creosote if you use dry wood. Having it outside should make the ins. co. happier too. No way to burn down a house when the boiler is outside. If you have 3,000 sq ft. house you should easily get by with 10 cords a yr. I go through 4 in my 2200 sq ft ranch. It is very efficient house though. If you decide 10 cords is too many , insulter your house if not already , and that day you will notice less wood useage. One bad thing about a gassifier is you need to split it down to about 4" x4 " logs.

 

[GENECOP]

I have been liking what I see in the Portage, outdoor Gasifier......Just remember whatever you hear about the amount of wood needed, double it....all the numbers are assuming perfect conditions, dry wood, nicely insulted structure....

 

[stee6043]

I have been liking what I see in the Portage, outdoor Gasifier......Just remember whatever you hear about the amount of wood needed, double it....all the numbers are assuming perfect conditions, dry wood, nicely insulted structure....

For a gasser? Assuming dry wood should be a give.

Hah. The above was a great post. Phone died half way through.

What I meant to say was "No need to double any wood estimates. Gassers won't run with junk wood so I wouldn't bother doubling wood consumption to account for such".

There...that's better.

 

[maple1]

Between a modern indoor wood furnace, and an outdoor wood boiler, I would lean heavily to the furnace. Should use much less wood, and be a much cheaper install. Maybe a Max Caddy?

And although I have developed an aversion to oil, that might be the best choice for you for backup heat. But do you already have propane on-site? If so, I might also consider using that & getting rid of the oil all together. I guess no natural gas there? Electric would likely be my last choice - unless maybe you truly would be using it very little.

What is the situation for getting wood in the basement & storage of it? A lot of the decision making factors come down to personal preferences & situational issues. I can set pallets of wood in my basement entry way with a tractor, then wheel them in beside my boiler with a pallet jack. Stuff like that makes a huge difference - but not always possible. My insurance guy didn't seem too concerned with what I did - think the only thing he said was it should have a CSA sticker on it. But better to call & ask first than find out later you can't insure.

 

[The Weimar]

I have a Central Boiler E Classic 2400 OWB, using about 8 cord of dry, seasoned wood per season to heat 3500 sq ft. Working pretty well other than the repairs that were made to the unit itself. If I was you, Plum Hollow, I would narrow it down to two or three manufacturers and then do some research on the warranties and their repair procedures, including the dealer from which you purchase. That would be the deal breaker for me at this point. It seems that a number of folks on here use Gasifiers, whether indoor or out, with great success. The EKO's stories (and others that claim to be 'indoor') seem a bit unclear to me, as they are an indoor type but so many folks have them outside in their own little shanty, which is exactly what an OWB is. Either way, as long as you burn good, dry wood, you won't be disappointed.

The Weimar

 

[leon]

I am new to this site and have already learned a lot.

We live in Canada in a large (about 3,000 sq ft) two unit farm house.

Currently we heat using an oil furnace for the one unit and a wood/oil combo furnace for our side.

Both furnaces are in the basement with no dividing wall between them.

Because insurance companies are getting nervous about houses heated
with oil and with even more so with wood/oil combo furnaces we are starting
to look into our options for the future.

We live on 400+ acres of mostly woodland so firewood is not an issue, but we are in
our late 50's and don't want to keep processing 20 cords a year - 10 cords would be lovely!

Seems like we could go with a high efficiency wood furnace in the basement and duct it through
the existing duct work. The other obvious option would be to install an outdoor wood gasification boiler.

Any advice for us? Does anyone know how insurance companies look at gassification furnaces?
Any recommendations as to which brands are better than others? I understand that we need a backup
heating source to keep the insurance company happy - any recommendation as to what to use
(propane or electric are the options for us)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------=====================================================================================================

Depends,



1. How many of these furnaces are UL or CSA approved wood burning appliances?

2. Are you assuming your insurance company is frowning on the use of fossil fuel oil heat
or did you receive a nastygram via Canada Post telling you that your household insurance
premium will increase due to you use of fossil fuels????????????????

a. your shared common basement is an immediate red flag to an insurer due to the
the lack of a fire wall/fire break and that is an immediate stop sign.

a1. An insurer is going to want to inspect the home and the basement location and I doubt very
seriously a new installation would be allowed unless a concrete wall was installed.


b. Any fossil fuel burning appliance has to be UL or CSA or have a steam pressure
vessel approved stamp/plate so no worries there.

3. I am switching to coal as of this year-AFTER hauling wood for 33 years, I am older and I
wish I could have a afforded a coal stoker way back when, but I will eliminate my oil bill
completely when I remove both boilers which i should have done 29 years ago when I had the
old oil boiler removed based on my plumbers saying it was leaking, UH HUH.

4. You essentially have a huge house and at a minimum of 2 zones- my poorly insulated home
has a single loop and a domestic hot water coil.


5. A forest eater is still forest eater.

6. Unless you have a place to store dry wood (closed shed) or access to dry wood the point is
kinda moot.

7. an outdoor coal stoker from Portage and Maine with oxygen barrier pex is an option but
you looking a $20,000.00 Canadian loonies +- with installation

a. Anthracite coal is available in Ontario.


8. A coal stoker boiler put in a job built specific garage for the boiler and a water storage tank
with two circulator's and an oil tank with a set back distance to conform to National Plumbing
code would be be much less of a problem to get insured and you could set it up to be powered
by a generator to keep the home heated in an emergency by wiring it to be plugged in to an
outlet rather than being hard wired.

a. Coal stoker wiring is no different than fossil fuel or wood boiler wiring, Period. Don't let anyone
tell you any different.

b. Any licensed plumber can install these boilers or furnaces and maintain them as the care and
maintenance of them is very simple. Many owners have installed them themselves.

b. There are several Keystoker boilers in residential use in Ontario, Canada.

9. another option is the use of heat pumps which I am sure Ontario Hydro would offer rebates or
financing for same.

10. Think, think some more, then think some more, before you make a life altering decision
involving a forest eater. If I had been able to afford the extra $2,000.00 (US) for the coal
stoker installation 32 years ago when anthracite was 70 dollars a ton I would have been
hoarding 70 tons of coal in a heartbeat in 1982 and gradually been replacing it over time with
more. I would have several ugly coal piles next to my home but I would not be made a
victimized by my monthly oil budget payments (even with the oil boom).



a. FYI from what I remember one ton of anthracite coal it is equal in heat value to 2 cords of
wood or one tank of fuel oil.
======================================================================


Like I said it "Depends", I am sorry I used wood as coal is much more economical and efficient --
especially with an old home or a one room school house converted to living space.


I would also look at a steam installation in your basement as a single pipe steam system is
even more cost effective even though its installation cost is greater IN THE BEGINNING AND
The heat Value is greater using low pressure steam ( less than 15 pounds pressure).

My growing up with steam heat means I can and will tell you is an eye opener as the heating is much more uniform. even with single pipe radiators by windows.

I wish I had it in this place period.

You can also regulate the temperature in each room with radiator mounted manual thermostats if desired.

You have to have separate pumps and pipe loops to accomplish this with hydronic heat and or forced air heat using a a radiator in duct work.

 

[woodsmaster]

Although rare, propane explosions do happen. Just lost a relative to one last week. I think I'd go with oil or electric backup just for that reason.

 

[Plum Hollow]

Spoke with the township office re. setbacks, zoning etc and with an outdoor furnace installer to get some basic questions answered. Looks like an outdoor furnace option would cost us about $20,000+ by the time we install it, pipe to both furnaces, change the furnaces to something other than oil and bury the pipe. Another idea might be to install a wood furnace in our side of the house and a propane furnace in the other. Probably could get the ducts sorted so the propane furnace could be considered our backup heating source (although with the propane shortage last winter, wood should be considered the backup source!). Any thought on that idea? Any recommendations?

 

[woodsmaster]

If the back up is mostly for the insurance company, electric is probably the cheapest to install if your current service will handle it and you have somewhere to put baseboard or wall mounted fan heaters.

 

[leon]

Spoke with the township office re. setbacks, zoning etc and with an outdoor furnace installer
to get some basic questions answered.

Looks like an outdoor furnace option would cost us about $20,000+ by the time we install it,
pipe to both furnaces, change the furnaces to something other than oil and bury the pipe.
Another idea might be to install a wood furnace in our side of the house and a propane furnace
in the other.

Probably could get the ducts sorted so the propane furnace could be considered our backup
heating source (although with the propane shortage last winter wood should be considered
the backup source!. Any thought on that idea? Any recommendations?

=====================================================================================================


A dual fuel Keystoker KAA-4-1 with a domestic hot water coil would run you
about $5,177.00 plus import fees freight and installation(plumbing, heat exchanger's wiring.
purchased from a keystoker dealer on this side of the border- there may be a keystoker dealer
in Ontario by now.

You could keep the KAA-4-1 in the basement and keep your oil as a back up
and have a dual fuel boiler unit.

As i said the boilers wiring could simply plug into a three gang receptacle
to allow you to run an extension cord to the boiler if the power is out.

There are some well done videos that home owners have made about owning
forest eaters and having to feed them at three in morning on youtube

 

[philupthegastank]

my neighbor has a an outdoor wood boiler, he heats his trailer and his bar/grill with it, and uses hot water for both and went through 24 cords of wood last year.

 

[heatingcostssuck]

=====================================================================================================


A dual fuel Keystoker KAA-4-1 with a domestic hot water coil would run you
about $5,177.00 plus import fees freight and installation(plumbing, heat exchanger's wiring.
purchased from a keystoker dealer on this side of the border- there may be a keystoker dealer
in Ontario by now.

You could keep the KAA-4-1 in the basement and keep your oil as a back up
and have a dual fuel boiler unit.

As i said the boilers wiring could simply plug into a three gang receptacle
to allow you to run an extension cord to the boiler if the power is out.

There are some well done videos that home owners have made about owning
forest eaters and having to feed them at three in morning on youtube

Leon,

I know you said there are lots of coal dealers in Ontario, can you list some? I have found
zero in the Eastern Ontario region, which is where Plum Hollow and I are in.

Heating coal in Eastern Ontario is as elusive as an unopened Molson Canadian.

 

[leon]

Here are a few of them, I hope this helps you both


Kingston supply

Graybill and Shantz coal and wood dealers Waterloo

www.anvilfire.com blacksmith forum

ERI trading 905-545-3211
[email protected]

cleantech? Industries Inc. Mississauga

I am sure if you contact Reading Coal, Centralia Coal sales, Blashak Coal Company they can tell you about more coal dealers

 

[ewdudley]

Heating coal in Eastern Ontario is as elusive as an unopened Molson Canadian.

Become your own coal dealer.

For (I would guess, hard to say with the border and all) less than $6,000 up front (I don't know what that is in metric dollars these days) you can have a 22.5 ton (20.41 metric ton) load of bagged rice coal sitting in your driveway.

Ideally you'd have good sized FEL or an industrial forklift that can handle 2500 pound pallets easily, but if you can round up a crew of two guys you can unwrap the pallets and toss the bags on the ground fast enough to keep the driver happy. With two men (that is to say two full-sized 65 year old farm boy types, not kids these days) and a proper wheelbarrow you can move 22.5 ton of bagged coal and stack it inside in less than two hours, assuming you've got about 1000 cubic feet of space somewhere out of the sunlight to put it.

That's for (I would guess) at least four years of fuel with no felling, hauling, splitting, stacking, drying, or risk of taking your ear off with the saw.

If you can come up with a way to deal with bulk coal you could save (I would guess) $1500 a load or more.

 

[CoalFire2]

Here are a few of them, I hope this helps you both


Kingston supply

Graybill and Shantz coal and wood dealers Waterloo

www.anvilfire.com blacksmith forum

ERI trading 905-545-3211
[email protected]

cleantech? Industries Inc. Mississauga

I am sure if you contact Reading Coal, Centralia Coal sales, Blashak Coal Company they can tell you about more coal dealers

I noticed a typo and wrong number on coal source. I've bought from Frank at ERI Trading many times aND can recommend him. Here's his info:

Frank Cipriani
[email protected]
905-545-2311

Here are a few of them, I hope this helps you both


Kingston supply

Graybill and Shantz coal and wood dealers Waterloo

www.anvilfire.com blacksmith forum

ERI trading 905-545-3211
[email protected]

cleantech? Industries Inc. Mississauga

I am sure if you contact Reading Coal, Centralia Coal sales, Blashak Coal Company they can tell you about more coal dealers

Here is the correct contact info