Over burning/over draft

[therealdbeau]

Now I don't have your same stove but I had to do considerable modding to my stove to get it not to overheat. I've blocked off all of the "Boost air" inlets and even reduced my secondary tubes about 60% and now all is well. I wouldn't be worried about blocking off that boost air hole. @begreen told you in post #2 that this hole is not essential to stove operation and is only there to aide in starting the fire.

As far as I'm concerned these stoves are mandated to burn clean in the most not-ideal circumstances so if you have a relatively ideal install you are at risk of overheating. Of course I only have experience with my stove. I know a few folks with stoves that have no problems at all but they also aren't nerds like me so maybe they just don't know.

 

[begreen]

Dad always used to say the most important nut in a car is the one behind the wheel.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

Now I don't have your same stove but I had to do considerable modding to my stove to get it not to overheat. I've blocked off all of the "Boost air" inlets and even reduced my secondary tubes about 60% and now all is well. I wouldn't be worried about blocking off that boost air hole. @begreen told you in post #2 that this hole is not essential to stove operation and is only there to aide in starting the fire.

As far as I'm concerned these stoves are mandated to burn clean in the most not-ideal circumstances so if you have a relatively ideal install you are at risk of overheating. Of course I only have experience with my stove. I know a few folks with stoves that have no problems at all but they also aren't nerds like me so maybe they just don't know.

Thanks again to all of you for your help. Yes we are going to keep the air booster pipe hole closed as it seems to be the issue. All appears to work well with it closed off and as long as we are not creating a smoke dragon or worst... then we are happy with the stove.

Now we just have to deal with PE and the stove store about the warranty and incurred cost thus far. ( at 65$ an hour our pension income does not have that kind of budget).

If PE had sent the correct manual with it and trained the sales rep and the tech to know the ins and outs of the stove... none of this would have been necessary.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

Dad always used to say the most important nut in a car is the one behind the wheel.

Sorry for any confusion I might have brought to this issue... newbie at chats/ tech and cyber world... but not knew at burning wood... raised with it and have always had one or two wood stoves in my homes. After almost 70 years of dealing with it ( wood hogs and all), I think it is not rocket science to see if a stove is working correctly.
Just wish the companies would be honest with the customer.
You have all contributed more good information than we got from PE or the stove store.
The stove should be sold with additional plugs or something to accommodate the person who has the ideal situation and does not need an air booster.
Will upload some pictures when I have time.

 

[bholler]

What temps do you start shutting the stove back at? If your chimney was higher I would expect excessive draft that would require restricting it in some way. But yours isn't that tall I find the issue very odd and the fact that a damper didn't effect it is very strange.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

What temps do you start shutting the stove back at? If your chimney was higher I would expect excessive draft that would require restricting it in some way. But yours isn't that tall I find the issue very odd and the fact that a damper didn't effect it is very strange.

We usually start shutting it down between 500-600 not higher than 600 and now that the air booster pipe is closed that seems to work well.
But before descovering the air booster pipe we could not follow the manual starting fire instruction as it would not shut down until all the wood was burned... it had no secondary burn.
We didn’t have a double wall chimney probe thermometer at that time so cannot say an accurate temperature. But the single wall thermometer we had would be 600-700 or more and would get very hot if we did not shut the damper early... but even at that it continued to burn the wood and did not get a second burn or shut down the flames more than you would expect if it was set at half.

 

[begreen]

There is no such thing as an air booster in my knowledge of this stove. The incorrect terminology is confusing the issue.

We didn’t have a double wall chimney probe thermometer at that time so cannot say an accurate temperature. But the single wall thermometer we had would be 600-700 or more and would get very hot if we did not shut the damper early... but even at that it continued to burn the wood and did not get a second burn or shut down the flames more than you would expect if it was set at half.

That is much too hot and too late for shutting down the air. 600-700º surface flue temperature equates to about 12-1400º inside the flue! Running steadily at that temp can do damage. 600º via a probe thermometer is a safe temp to shut down the air. Secondary burn should follow.

These stoves do not run like the pre-EPA stoves of the 1980's and earlier. There is a learning curve, but run correctly they produce reliable, steady heat. This is true regardless of manufacturer.

 

[Highbeam]

You’re worrying too much.

Burning those wood species in a modern noncat you should expect internal flue temperatures between 500 and 800 with the intake control fully closed. Don’t worry, your chimney is rated for 1000 continuously. The “normal” range on my flue probe meter is anything from 400 to 900.

We will be seeing more of these types of posts as noncat manufacturers try to reduce emissions even further.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

There is no such thing as an air booster in my knowledge of this stove. The incorrect terminology is confusing the issue.


That is much too hot and too late for shutting down the air. 600-700º surface flue temperature equates to about 12-1400º inside the flue! Running steadily at that temp can do damage. 600º via a probe thermometer is a safe temp to shut down the air. Secondary burn should follow.

These stoves do not run like the pre-EPA stoves of the 1980's and earlier. There is a learning curve, but run correctly they produce reliable, steady heat. This is true regardless of manufacturer.

Call it what you want... the second little hole with a small pipe welded on and open from the outside of the stove and going into the stove is now tapped shut by the wet certified stove tech and it seems to have corrected the issue.
We do not believe we have a chimney issue but rather a stove design issue and that was causing it to not burn 8-10 hours and did not have a second burn and would stay over 600 with the hole open.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

You’re worrying too much.

Burning those wood species in a modern noncat you should expect internal flue temperatures between 500 and 800 with the intake control fully closed. Don’t worry, your chimney is rated for 1000 continuously. The “normal” range on my flue probe meter is anything from 400 to 900.

We will be seeing more of these types of posts as noncat manufacturers try to reduce emissions even further.

Well if that’s true why did it not operate as stated in the manual and as we were told by the store??? And why did closing that hole make a difference???
If we ran it according to the instructions we had to get up in the night to put more wood in it.
Retired people with little money and even less energy who are trying to set up their offgrid retirement dream and have good new reliable equipment do not need to be worried about or make shifting a stove they just paid over &2000 for. Are we asking too much from companies today to make a good product and back it???
We do very much appreciate the new technology and environmental features and more efficiency of the stoves today and that’s why we bought one... but it needs to work properly and be safe... don’t need two old farts trying to climb out a window at night due to a fire...

 

[begreen]

The stove is an excellent product. It very likely is working correctly, but there is a learning curve. A good dealer should instruct people transitioning from older stoves on proper burning methods.

This video may be helpful

 

[bholler]

We usually start shutting it down between 500-600 not higher than 600 and now that the air booster pipe is closed that seems to work well.
But before descovering the air booster pipe we could not follow the manual starting fire instruction as it would not shut down until all the wood was burned... it had no secondary burn.
We didn’t have a double wall chimney probe thermometer at that time so cannot say an accurate temperature. But the single wall thermometer we had would be 600-700 or more and would get very hot if we did not shut the damper early... but even at that it continued to burn the wood and did not get a second burn or shut down the flames more than you would expect if it was set at half.

Yes way too late to start shutting back. That is probably your main problem.

 

[Highbeam]

Well if that’s true why did it not operate as stated in the manual and as we were told by the store??? And why did closing that hole make a difference???
If we ran it according to the instructions we had to get up in the night to put more wood in it.
Retired people with little money and even less energy who are trying to set up their offgrid retirement dream and have good new reliable equipment do not need to be worried about or make shifting a stove they just paid over &2000 for. Are we asking too much from companies today to make a good product and back it???
We do very much appreciate the new technology and environmental features and more efficiency of the stoves today and that’s why we bought one... but it needs to work properly and be safe... don’t need two old farts trying to climb out a window at night due to a fire...

I believe that there is a misunderstanding and I bet it mostly has to do with the huge differences between surface flue temperatures, internal flue temperatures, and stove top temperatures. My noncat is cruising along right now with internal flue temperatures of 800 and surface flue temperatures of 400. Totally normal.

The second problem here is the common struggle when moving from an old smoke dragon to a clean burning noncat. That struggle will only become more common as manufacturers take more burn rate control away from users to keep these stoves burning hot and clean.

 

[Highbeam]

Yes way to late to start shutting back. That is probably your main problem.

I don’t agree. Remember, these are probe temperatures. That’s just 250 surface temperature. Barely into the normal range and we all know the value of charring a fresh load.

I run wide open past 300 surface flue temperature which corresponds with 600 internal on every load. Don’t close the air to the cruise setting until 400 which is actually 800 internal.

No wonder this guy is confused.

 

[bholler]

I don’t agree. Remember, these are probe temperatures. That’s just 250 surface temperature. Barely into the normal range and we all know the value of charring a fresh load.

I run wide open past 300 surface flue temperature which corresponds with 600 internal on every load. Don’t close the air to the cruise setting until 400 which is actually 800 internal.

No wonder this guy is confused.

And to me that is to late but you are looking for lots of heat fast out of that stove. Which is what he is now getting and doesn't want. If they want to slow the stove down they need to shut back further.

 

[Highbeam]

Be careful, trying to run this modern noncat like a smoke dragon with abnormally low flue temperatures is a recipe for pollution and creosote in the flue. Too much creosote and you’ll have a chimney fire and risk burning the house down! Probe temperatures under 500 mean flue skin temperatures under 250. That is the danger temperature for condensing that tar into your flue as it cools even more floating up the chimney.

The proper way to get less heat from a modern noncat is to burn smaller fires more often. You can also reduce the air sooner but not so soon that you smolder the load!

 

[Highbeam]

And to me that is to late but you are looking for lots of heat fast out of that stove. Which is what he is now getting and doesn't want. If they want to slow the stove down they need to shut back further.

Oh no, I do the same thing with my house stove. Every load sees internal flue temperatures at startup of over 800 before the long 24 cruise at 400 internal. Every stove should be properly warmed up to burn off water and those highly volatile gasses before setting low for a cruise. I know my house stove’s owners manual requires a proper startup.

Try to be environmentally conscious and safe.

 

[bholler]

Oh no, I do the same thing with my house stove. Every load sees internal flue temperatures at startup of over 800 before the long 24 cruise at 400 internal. Every stove should be properly warmed up to burn off water and those highly volatile gasses before setting low for a cruise. I know my house stove’s owners manual requires a proper startup.

Try to be environmentally conscious and safe.

Yes but the way you run your house stove has no bearing at all it is a completely different type of stove. And yes every stove should be warmed properly but with some setups you need to start shutting back some before you get there to keep the temps from climbing to high. I am not saying shut it all the way at that point. Just start shutting back in steps sooner. It will still burn cleanly but it will burn longer with a lower heatoutput.

 

[mar13]

From the very first post:
"The chimney is a16 foot stainless steal double wall (6’ in house) located in centre of the house ( approximately 2’ above ridge). It is 9 years old and in good condition. Have run other stoves on it. We are located in the woods not in the open and get very little wind.

The stove has been over heating and we have not been able to control it to be shut down. When the damper is shut down the stove will still run hot (600 plus , chimney temperature) until the wood is all burned. It’s too hot for the night."

and in a later post from the OP:
"We didn’t have a double wall chimney probe thermometer at that time so cannot say an accurate temperature. But the single wall thermometer we had would be 600-700 or more and would get very hot if we did not shut the damper early..."

What is the rough conversion of an surface thermometer temperature on a double-wall to the interior flue temperature? I'm sure there's a long lag time from flue to surface.

Regarding costs of labor, perhaps the tech would cut the hours charged in, say, half, because of their "learning on the job"? I can empathize with that pit-in-the-stomach feel when you get a big unexpected bill.

Just an FYI for all reading the thread, here are their start instructions from the 2017 manual which is available online. (Why you were given a 2013 manual????)

Lighting a fire
WARNING: Never use chemicals or any other volatile liquid to start a fire.
1.
Adjust air control to “High” position(all the way to the left) and open door.
2.
Place crumpled newspaper in the centre of the heater and criss-cross with several pieces of dry kindling. Add a few small pieces of dry wood on top.
3.
Ignite the paper and leave the door ajar approimately 1/2"(13mm) - 1"(25mm) until the wood kindling is fully engulfed in flame.
4.
After the kindling is fully engulfed add a few small logs. Close door.
5.
Begin normal operation after a good coal base exists and wood has charred.

Normal Operation
1.
Set air control to a desired setting. If smoke pours down across the glass (waterfall effect) this indicates you have shut the control down too soon or you are using too low a setting. The wide range control panel makes finding the desired setting for your application easy. As every home's heating needs vary (ie. insulation, windows, climate, etc.) the proper setting can only be found by trial and error and should be noted for future burns. (my bold font)
2.
To refuel, adjust air control to high, and give the fire time to brighten. Open the door slowly, this will prevent backpuffing.
3.
Use wood of different shape, diameter and length (up to 18"(457mm)). Load your wood endwise and try to place the logs so that the air can flow between them. Always use dry wood.
4.
Do not load fuel to a height or in such a manner that would be hazardous when opening the door.
5.
For extended or overnight burns, unsplit logs are preferred. Remember to char the wood completely on maximum setting before adjusting air control for overnight burn.

WARNING: Always keep loading door closed when burning. This heater is not designed for open door burning.
WARNING: No alteration or modification of the combustion air control assembly is permitted. Any tampering will void warranty and could be very hazardous.
WARNING: Do not use grates or andirons to elevate the fuel. Burn directly on the fire bricks. Replace broken or missing bricks. Failure to do so may create a hazardous condition.

Restarting After Extended or Overnight Burns
1.
Open door and rake hot embers towards the front of the heater. Add a couple of dry, split logs on top of embers, close door.
2.
Adjust air control to high and in just a few minutes, logs should begin burning.
3.
After wood has charred, reset air control to desired setting.
4.
To achieve maximum firing rate, set control to high "H". Do not use this setting other than for starting or preheating fresh fuel loads.

DO NOT OVERFIRE THIS HEATER: Attempts to achieve heat output rates that exceed heater design specifications can result in permanent damage to the heater and chimney.
​

 

[bholler]

Be careful, trying to run this modern noncat like a smoke dragon with abnormally low flue temperatures is a recipe for pollution and creosote in the flue. Too much creosote and you’ll have a chimney fire and risk burning the house down! Probe temperatures under 500 mean flue skin temperatures under 250. That is the danger temperature for condensing that tar into your flue as it cools even more floating up the chimney.

The proper way to get less heat from a modern noncat is to burn smaller fires more often. You can also reduce the air sooner but not so soon that you smolder the load!

Starting to shut back at that point will just slow the climb a little and lower the peak temps. It will not smoulder if done right. The op just needs to figure out their stove on their setup

 

[Inthewoods2019]

From the very first post:
"The chimney is a16 foot stainless steal double wall (6’ in house) located in centre of the house ( approximately 2’ above ridge). It is 9 years old and in good condition. Have run other stoves on it. We are located in the woods not in the open and get very little wind.

The stove has been over heating and we have not been able to control it to be shut down. When the damper is shut down the stove will still run hot (600 plus , chimney temperature) until the wood is all burned. It’s too hot for the night."

and in a later post from the OP:
"We didn’t have a double wall chimney probe thermometer at that time so cannot say an accurate temperature. But the single wall thermometer we had would be 600-700 or more and would get very hot if we did not shut the damper early..."

What is the rough conversion of an surface thermometer temperature on a double-wall to the interior flue temperature? I'm sure there's a long lag time from flue to surface.

Regarding costs of labor, perhaps the tech would cut the hours charged in, say, half, because of their "learning on the job"? I can empathize with that pit-in-the-stomach feel when you get a big unexpected bill.

Just an FYI for all reading the thread, here are their start instructions from the 2017 manual which is available online. (Why you were given a 2013 manual????)

Lighting a fire
WARNING: Never use chemicals or any other volatile liquid to start a fire.
1.
Adjust air control to “High” position(all the way to the left) and open door.
2.
Place crumpled newspaper in the centre of the heater and criss-cross with several pieces of dry kindling. Add a few small pieces of dry wood on top.
3.
Ignite the paper and leave the door ajar approimately 1/2"(13mm) - 1"(25mm) until the wood kindling is fully engulfed in flame.
4.
After the kindling is fully engulfed add a few small logs. Close door.
5.
Begin normal operation after a good coal base exists and wood has charred.

Normal Operation
1.
Set air control to a desired setting. If smoke pours down across the glass (waterfall effect) this indicates you have shut the control down too soon or you are using too low a setting. The wide range control panel makes finding the desired setting for your application easy. As every home's heating needs vary (ie. insulation, windows, climate, etc.) the proper setting can only be found by trial and error and should be noted for future burns. (my bold font)
2.
To refuel, adjust air control to high, and give the fire time to brighten. Open the door slowly, this will prevent backpuffing.
3.
Use wood of different shape, diameter and length (up to 18"(457mm)). Load your wood endwise and try to place the logs so that the air can flow between them. Always use dry wood.
4.
Do not load fuel to a height or in such a manner that would be hazardous when opening the door.
5.
For extended or overnight burns, unsplit logs are preferred. Remember to char the wood completely on maximum setting before adjusting air control for overnight burn.

WARNING: Always keep loading door closed when burning. This heater is not designed for open door burning.
WARNING: No alteration or modification of the combustion air control assembly is permitted. Any tampering will void warranty and could be very hazardous.
WARNING: Do not use grates or andirons to elevate the fuel. Burn directly on the fire bricks. Replace broken or missing bricks. Failure to do so may create a hazardous condition.

Restarting After Extended or Overnight Burns
1.
Open door and rake hot embers towards the front of the heater. Add a couple of dry, split logs on top of embers, close door.
2.
Adjust air control to high and in just a few minutes, logs should begin burning.
3.
After wood has charred, reset air control to desired setting.
4.
To achieve maximum firing rate, set control to high "H". Do not use this setting other than for starting or preheating fresh fuel loads.

DO NOT OVERFIRE THIS HEATER: Attempts to achieve heat output rates that exceed heater design specifications can result in permanent damage to the heater and chimney.
​

Thanks for the information, unfortunately the stove we have has a new system for boosting the fire ( air booster pipe??? What ever the technology is) and that is not described in the manual as it just came out this last year.
So the video on fire starts and the manual do not discuss that feature and in our situation IT seems to be the problem.
But the manual does say WARNING: do not modify combustion air control assembly etc... well there’s a piece of tape over the pipe that was drafting the stove too much. Done by a wet tech... go figure now what????

 

[bholler]

Thanks for the information, unfortunately the stove we have has a new system for boosting the fire ( air booster pipe??? What ever the technology is) and that is not described in the manual as it just came out this last year.
So the video on fire starts and the manual do not discuss that feature and in our situation IT seems to be the problem.
But the manual does say WARNING: do not modify combustion air control assembly etc... well there’s a piece of tape over the pipe that was drafting the stove too much. Done by a wet tech... go figure now what????

I would suggest removing the tape and shutting back sooner.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

The stove is an excellent product. It very likely is working correctly, but there is a learning curve. A good dealer should instruct people transitioning from older stoves on proper burning methods.

This video may be helpful

Thanks but it doesn’t mention the air booster pipe hole ( or any other air outlets on the front of the stove. )
With it open we can not control the fire... it drafts too much.

 

[Highbeam]

Thanks for the information, unfortunately the stove we have has a new system for boosting the fire ( air booster pipe??? What ever the technology is) and that is not described in the manual as it just came out this last year.
So the video on fire starts and the manual do not discuss that feature and in our situation IT seems to be the problem.
But the manual does say WARNING: do not modify combustion air control assembly etc... well there’s a piece of tape over the pipe that was drafting the stove too much. Done by a wet tech... go figure now what????

So is this the brand spanking new “LE” model that is 2020 compliant?

 

[Highbeam]

Thanks but it doesn’t mention the air booster pipe hole ( or any other air outlets on the front of the stove. )
With it open we can not control the fire... it drafts too much.

That’s the point. They don’t want you to control the burn rate. The only way they could pass these new emissions regulations was by forcing the thing to run full blast all the time.

Blocking off holes is likely a violation of federal law!