Over burning/over draft

[Inthewoods2019]

We have a Pacific Energy Super 27 wood stove purchased January 2019.

The chimney is a16 foot stainless steal double wall (6’ in house) located in centre of the house ( approximately 2’ above ridge). It is 9 years old and in good condition. Have run other stoves on it. We are located in the woods not in the open and get very little wind.

The stove has been over heating and we have not been able to control it to be shut down. When the damper is shut down the stove will still run hot (600 plus , chimney temperature) until the wood is all burned. It’s too hot for the night.

Had tech from store that sold it come and run draft test. They said the chimney was over drafting... after two days they discovered the air booster pipe (they didn’t know about it nor did the sales rep in the area nor was it in the manual that came with the stove ( dated 2013).

So they put heat tape over the air booster pipe and it has been working much better.

But now the company does not want to pay for the tech visits and the store is charging us and they are all saying it’s our chimney that’s the issue.

PE wanted them to put two chimney dampers on (as one made no difference in the draft). They then said to install a 45 and 90 pipe on our straight chimney... to create resistance and / or put a smaller 5” cap on the top.

Also this model has the new override system that is to cool the stove if you forgot to shut the damper... but prior to plugging the air booster pipe the stove got out of control a couple of times and it didn’t seem to cool itself down.

1: Can this stove be run with the air booster pipe plugged?

2: What is the point of the air booster pipe?

3: Are we responsible for the bill?

4: How do we determine if our chimney is the issue?

5: Is our chimney not the ideal already?

6: Does anyone have experience with the overdraft cooling system?

7: The store wants us to bring it to them so they can try it on their chimney. ( they have tried a new identical stove and said it works fine) their chimney has a 90 and a 45 as they have other stoves hooked on to one main chimney. Seems to me that would not be comparing apples with apples...as ours is straight etc.

8: Should you have a chimney damper on an air tight?

Any advice or opinions would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[begreen]

There are some misconceptions and misunderstandings here. Modern stoves are not airtight. They do not run like old pre-EPA stoves and are designed to not smolder. A controlled amount of air is allowed in the firebox. This is typically via the door glass airwash and secondary air. As the air is closed down the vacuum in the firebox increases. This pulls combustion air through the secondary passages and out at the top of the fire for more efficient and complete combustion. This means more heat burning less wood and a cleaner chimney. 600ºF stove top temp is in the normal range. If less heat is desired, build a smaller fire with say 4-5 splits. And turn down the air a bit sooner. A flue thermometer can be a good guide for this, better than the stove top temperature.

There is no boost pipe. The stove has a small boost air supply that is focused on the front bottom of the fire. This is to help get the fire going. It is not essential for operation, especially if one is burning good dry wood. Our stove's boost air intake hole is taped over.

Based on what has been described it sounds like the chimney is not the issue, nor the stove. There is a learning curve with any new stove. We've all been through this. You've bought a great stove and it will heat the house well, but it is designed to pollute much less than old smoke dragons of yore. Tell us a bit more about teh wood being burned, how the stove is loaded and how the air control is being managed.

 

[Woody Stover]

I don't see how the stove can be over-drafting on 16' of chimney. I'd think you should be able to slow it down just by cutting the air control, even if you got too much wood burning at the start of a new load (which might result in a loss of control on a taller chimney.) Maybe the ash dump door is stuck open and leaking air into the box?

 

[begreen]

This is not a cat stove. The fire doesn't die down to a smolder when the air control is closed. With the right combo of very dry wood, a loosely loaded the fire can be hot with the air fully closed, especially if the wood pieces are relatively thin 2-3" splits. Closing off the primary air in this case will still be feeding the airwash and will encourage robust secondary combustion as the wood rapidly outgases as it heats up. In these conditions a 600F stove top is pretty normal.

 

[Zack R]

Use less wood and turn the air down sooner so the fire won't be as hot. Sounds like you are getting great performance from some nice dry wood and the new stove, you just have to throttle back based on your heating needs.

 

[therealdbeau]

Is the stove actually overheating? have you seen it glowing anywhere at all?

I don't think you have a problem really if the stove isn't actually overheating. It is designed to get very hot. If you want less heat put less wood in it. Unfortunately, this kinda cuts back on your burn time.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

There are some misconceptions and misunderstandings here. Modern stoves are not airtight. They do not run like old pre-EPA stoves and are designed to not smolder. A controlled amount of air is allowed in the firebox. This is typically via the door glass airwash and secondary air. As the air is closed down the vacuum in the firebox increases. This pulls combustion air through the secondary passages and out at the top of the fire for more efficient and complete combustion. This means more heat burning less wood and a cleaner chimney. 600ºF stove top temp is in the normal range. If less heat is desired, build a smaller fire with say 4-5 splits. And turn down the air a bit sooner. A flue thermometer can be a good guide for this, better than the stove top temperature.

There is no boost pipe. The stove has a small boost air supply that is focused on the front bottom of the fire. This is to help get the fire going. It is not essential for operation, especially if one is burning good dry wood. Our stove's boost air intake hole is taped over.

Based on what has been described it sounds like the chimney is not the issue, nor the stove. There is a learning curve with any new stove. We've all been through this. You've bought a great stove and it will heat the house well, but it is designed to pollute much less than old smoke dragons of yore. Tell us a bit more about teh wood being burned, how the stove is loaded and how the air control is being managed.

Thanks for your help. The wood is two seasons dry split mostly maple, some tamarack and the occasional birch. It is kept in a shed and the company we bought the stove from tested the wood and it was well with in dry limits.

We have a double wall chimney inside with a thermostat from them inside and that’s what reads over 600 when the damper leaver is closed and will stay there until all the wood is burned to ash. The tech that came to do a draft test said that’s not normal as it should shut down more.

We (he) discovered two holes (one with a very small pipe welded in going from the outside underneath the stove in to the firebox front shield... beside it is another small drilled hole that appears to go from the outside underneath stove to the tube inside the shield). We were told by them the one with the pipe was called an air booster pipe for starting the fire and that is the one they tapped closed and the stove seems to be working better.

Now when we move the damper leaver the fire responds.

It would not burn for 8 - 10 hours before but seems to be better now.

It did not matter if we put 2 -3 splits in or filled it, the damper didn’t control the fire with that booster pipe open.

We were told 400 - 600 chimney temperature is normal but prior to closing the booster pipe it was running over 600 with the damper closed.
The glass always kept clear but now it will be a bit dark in the morning.

We were told the small drilled hole is to wash the glass... but what is the point of the booster pipe as it seems to cause too much draft.??? They are both located to the right of the damper and there’s no way to shut or control the booster.

The stove starts fine without it... but we have no fire control with it???

Are we liable for the bill???
The manual is not up to date!
The sales rep , the repair tech and the store dealer did not know about this stoves features and incurred over 8 hours labour. They still say it is our chimney how can we tell?
Can we run this stove with the air booster pipe closed and what is the best way to do that?

 

[Inthewoods2019]

Is the stove actually overheating? have you seen it glowing anywhere at all?

I don't think you have a problem really if the stove isn't actually overheating. It is designed to get very hot. If you want less heat put less wood in it. Unfortunately, this kinda cuts back on your burn time.

ya that’s an issue not getting the burn time and using more wood. Plus safety concerns and insurance !

 

[begreen]

We're able to run our larger PE stove with a 500º stove top peak temp. It takes a little practice, but heating in milder weather is possible. The burn time will be shorter, but if one starts a smaller fire in the morning and lets it go out as the sun takes over warming the house, then interior temps stay moderate.

Pictures would help a lot so that we can see what you are seeing. Can you post some of this booster pipe? It also sounds like maybe an outside air kit was installed, but not sure. Pictures may help.

If you have a probe thermometer, then a chimney temp of 600º is a little high, but not terrible. Closing down the air sooner can help drop that flue temperature.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

Use less wood and turn the air down sooner so the fire won't be as hot. Sounds like you are getting great performance from some nice dry wood and the new stove, you just have to throttle back based on your heating needs.

Does matter if we put one split or fill it up the damper does not control the fire unless the air booster pipe is plugged close

 

[Inthewoods2019]

I don't see how the stove can be over-drafting on 16' of chimney. I'd think you should be able to slow it down just by cutting the air control, even if you got too much wood burning at the start of a new load (which might result in a loss of control on a taller chimney.) Maybe the ash dump door is stuck open and leaking air into the box?

We don’t have a ash tray in ours... so that’s a non issue however the tech Changed the gasket in it just to make sure it wasn’t leaking. We took all the bricks out and checked for leaks in the fire box and all seems well. The only thing that helped was tapping the air booster pipe closed. But is this going to affect the workings of the stove???

 

[Inthewoods2019]

We're able to run our larger PE stove with a 500º stove top peak temp. It takes a little practice, but heating in milder weather is possible. The burn time will be shorter, but if one starts a smaller fire in the morning and lets it go out as the sun takes over warming the house, then interior temps stay moderate.

Pictures would help a lot so that we can see what you are seeing. Can you post some of this booster pipe? It also sounds like maybe an outside air kit was installed, but not sure. Pictures may help.

If you have a probe thermometer, then a chimney temp of 600º is a little high, but not terrible. Closing down the air sooner can help drop that flue temperature.

We have not had the top of the stove hot/ red but we have had the chimney temperature over 1100. Also not being able to slow it down for the night is a bit disconcerting.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

I don't see how the stove can be over-drafting on 16' of chimney. I'd think you should be able to slow it down just by cutting the air control, even if you got too much wood burning at the start of a new load (which might result in a loss of control on a taller chimney.) Maybe the ash dump door is stuck open and leaking air into the box?

Yes that’s our thoughts as well. But what’s with this air booster pipe??

 

[begreen]

We don’t have a ash tray in ours... so that’s a non issue however the tech Changed the gasket in it just to make sure it wasn’t leaking. We took all the bricks out and checked for leaks in the fire box and all seems well. The only thing that helped was tapping the air booster pipe closed. But is this going to affect the workings of the stove???

You are using an unknown terminology. Can you post a picture of this "air booster pipe"?

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I have the same firebox (probably an older version by now) and have found the stove a very easy breather.

I'm interested in this tube you're talking about. Please post a pic.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

You are using an unknown terminology. Can you post a picture of this "air booster pipe"?

Sorry about the technical ignorance but just going by the term we were told from the sales rep that sold us the stove. At any rate we can take a picture when the stove is cold maybe tomorrow and then I’ll post it.

But I think we are talking about the same pipe you said you had taped close. It is located down by the draft leaver on the front. There’s also another drilled/cut hole beside it... that doesn’t have a pipe in it and does not go into the fire box.

But once the tech put tape over the other pipe/ hole the excessive burns stopped and we could control the fire with the draft leaver.

Now it gives us a good 10 hour burn and even if the stove is being started from a cold start we have no problem lighting it with out this air booster pipe ( or what ever it is called).

Unfortunately the manual that came with the stove was printed in 2013 and does not have any of the newer technologies in it. So I am sorry for the lack of proper terminology.

Now this stove also has an over heat feature that ( here we go again with terminology... whatcha call it), that we were told was located in the back of the stove underneath and is connected to the chimney to allow cooler air to be brought in to the chimney should the damper be accidentally left open and the stove starts to overheat.

Are you familiar with that feature it’s apparently a new feature and going to be part of all the stoves from now on??

So if we leave the air booster pipe (????) closes will it interfere with this other feature or any other functions of the stove?

Thank you everyone for your help and responses... we appreciate it and you are all wonderful!

 

[bholler]

What draft reading did they get? Do you have a damper installedi if so whatweffect did it have on the draft reading? Can you describe your burning procedures?

 

[Inthewoods2019]

I have the same firebox (probably an older version by now) and have found the stove a very easy breather.

I'm interested in this tube you're talking about. Please post a pic.

Will get a picture up as soon as the stove is cool. It is a very new feature so you may not have it or so we were told.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

What draft reading did they get? Can you describe your burning procedures?

The draft test read around 1.2 -1.3 if I remember correctly.
We have season dry wood and from the initial set up of the stove we followed the book that came with the stove. But after we left it to burn/ charcoal the wood as they said and slowly set the damper down the fire continued to burn the wood ( not like a second burn). It really only looked like the damper was set at half... once the tech taped the air booster pipe ( what ever it is called) shut the stove started to respond and we are now able to control it better.

He put a chimney damper in and it made no difference. Only closing that hole did.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

We're able to run our larger PE stove with a 500º stove top peak temp. It takes a little practice, but heating in milder weather is possible. The burn time will be shorter, but if one starts a smaller fire in the morning and lets it go out as the sun takes over warming the house, then interior temps stay moderate.

Pictures would help a lot so that we can see what you are seeing. Can you post some of this booster pipe? It also sounds like maybe an outside air kit was installed, but not sure. Pictures may help.

If you have a probe thermometer, then a chimney temp of 600º is a little high, but not terrible. Closing down the air sooner can help drop that flue temperature.

Yes I’ll get pictures as soon as we can.
The temperature is a prob thermometer inside the chimney. But with the air booster pipe hole closed we seem to be able to control the fire and temperature.
When we say over heat I maybe using another wrong term... it is more an inability to control the fire and not be able to get the proper burn time... no matter what size fire ( amount of wood) it’s not responding to the draft/ damper control.

 

[bholler]

The draft test read around 1.2 -1.3 if I remember correctly.
We have season dry wood and from the initial set up of the stove we followed the book that came with the stove. But after we left it to burn/ charcoal the wood as they said and slowly set the damper down the fire continued to burn the wood ( not like a second burn). It really only looked like the damper was set at half... once the tech taped the air booster pipe ( what ever it is called) shut the stove started to respond and we are now able to control it better.

He put a chimney damper in and it made no difference. Only closing that hole did.

So when you are reaching 1100 in the chimney where is the air set at?

 

[Inthewoods2019]

So when you are reaching 1100 in the chimney where is the air set at?

That happened a couple of times before we got the air booster pipe hole taped close. The damper draft control was closed. We had two large spit dry maple in that would have been a good size fire box load. Now with that hole closed it doesn’t get over 600, but we try to keep it around 400-500.
They keep saying it is our chimney that has too much draft but when they put a chimney damper in it made no difference in the draft.

 

[mar13]

I remembered an earlier related thread that I stumbled upon, so I did some searching ("begreen tape"). This may be relevant, especially since the T5 is essentially the same as the Super 27.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/reducing-alderlea-t5-combustion-air.102027/

I'm getting a bit nervous reading this thread as I'll have a straight ~22 ft chimney that will be connecting to my future T5 which I've committed to getting. Will let you all know next winter.

(8+ hours of labor... ouch!)

 

[Woody Stover]

I'm getting a bit nervous reading this thread as I'll have a straight ~22 ft chimney that will be connecting to my future T5 which I've committed to getting.

You'll be able to get it working right.
, with a damper (or two) if necessary.
I'm on the other end of the spectrum. I'm putting in a T5 at my SIL's house, and since she only has 14' I was worried about not enough draft, especially when it's warmer out. This post is reassuring:

I have the same firebox (probably an older version by now) and have found the stove a very easy breather.

 

[Inthewoods2019]

I remembered an earlier related thread that I stumbled upon, so I did some searching ("begreen tape"). This may be relevant, especially since the T5 is essentially the same as the Super 27.

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/reducing-alderlea-t5-combustion-air.102027/

I'm getting a bit nervous reading this thread as I'll have a straight ~22 ft chimney that will be connecting to my future T5 which I've committed to getting. Will let you all know next winter.

(8+ hours of labor... ouch!)

Thanks for your efforts... that does sound very much like our issue but with a different design stove.
But that’s our concern if the air booster pipe is tapped closed are we going to have a smoke dragon issue...boom boom
It does not back draft at all now and is easy to light, so do we need to open the hole a bit or just leave it?
It does not appear to have any leaver or means to close it. If this can be an issue for some and cause too much draft why don’t they send a plug or optional leaver so we don’t have to McGiver a brand new stove that cost over 2000$