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iceman

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2006
2,403
Springfield Ma (western mass)
Today I spoke with pe in regards to what overfire is... in specific temps... I was told that thermometers can greatly vary in temp, so take them as a guide but they are not a sure thing... I explained how my stove got to 800 and stay there for about 2hrs ... my question was is this "overfiring"? To my surprise I was told no! Since nothing internal/external was glowing red and there was no other signs of overfiring...so I asked if iat this temp and was it was ok.. I was told that a insert at 800 can be different from a freestanding stove...... and the front of the stove is where the most heat is ... so if it was a free standing stove it could be 800 on the front and 650 on top... that was my take on it


Sooooo will those who have a pe freestanding please check the temp on the front of the stove and compare it to the top ...


More to come ......
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
89,564
South Puget Sound, WA
The Alderlea is cooling down now, 418°F about 5" in front and left of the flue, 305°F on the cast iron door, blower off, measured with IR gun.

Are you getting your measurements with the blower on or off? With blower on I could see how the front might be hotter than the top. But it is starting to warm up outside, so I won't be able to check that.
 

Todd

Minister of Fire
Nov 19, 2005
9,402
NW Wisconsin
At what temp does steel start to glow? I thought I read 900 somewhere?
 

iceman

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2006
2,403
Springfield Ma (western mass)
BeGreen said:
The Alderlea is cooling down now, 418°F about 5" in front and left of the flue, 305°F on the cast iron door, blower off, measured with IR gun.

Are you getting your measurements with the blower on or off? With blower on I could see how the front might be hotter than the top. But it is starting to warm up outside, so I won't be able to check that.

i can see that too. i am using a insert but was curious to see how hot your stove during a burn cycle on the top middle where most people use as a guide.. since i have an insert i can only go off the front.. I am not sure if our stoves are built the same because of that? But i was wondering if my front is 800 what would the top be? With a fan blowing i would guess maybe not as high, but i was shocked and relieved to hear that 800 was ok and not considered overfire by them (pe)

on another note, i know there is a thread about wood being to dry, as was told to me from pe ...... YES wood can be to dry… The explanation was epa stoves always have air going in it. Its simple fuel to air ratio, the drier the wood the more energy released. If the wood is less than 10% it will release more energy, possibly causing extreme temps. Since you can’t close the air off all the way thats whats lead it to extreme temps. That may cause overfire.. They calculate mc at 15-20% for what they considered “best operating practices” if wood is stacked and split outdoors for 1-2 yrs it should be 15-20% (this is from pe) its ok if its longer usually as 3 yrs it will be around 15% or so… But packing a firebox full of 10% or less wood could very well lead to a bad situation for the stove as temps may get to hot…
 

marreque

Member
Feb 22, 2010
110
Fall River, Massachusetts
my T5 likes to be at around 500-550 on the top set on low. i will check the front next time i light it up.
 

Northeaster1

New Member
Oct 10, 2008
119
Nova Scotia
2 years ago, we bought a PE Pacific (mid-sized) insert, and started using it. The 1st couple of times that we ran it up into the 800 range, I was concerned, as it was a new stove for me. I discussed it a bit here, and ended up calling PE tech dept. Although the guy did not want to quote actual numbers for overfire (likely due to liability, etc) he basically said that during testing they hooked up a big fan to the stack, to pull the ari through (read more draft than we are getting, although we have lots of draft!). He said we would not hurt it. He called overfiring burning through a whole load of wood in less than 4 hours, whihc would require the draft left quite open, I would say.

We now have two winters using it, abut 2 cord per winter, and our temps are almost always in the 800-900 range, after reloading, getting a good burn on, and then closing the draft (usually in about 2 - 3 steps, over 15 minutes or so). It then settles in on a very nice 2ndary burn, temps keep rising till 800-900 and thne settle there, before slowly fallling back. I don't even give it a 2nd thought anymore, when I see the temps in that range. Keeps the creosote dow as well. I sweep about 2xs / year and get a couple of gallons of dry soot each time.

Stop worrying, and start enjoying the heat!
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
89,564
South Puget Sound, WA
I sweep about 2xs / year and get a couple of gallons of dry soot each time.

That seems quite high, especially for only 2 cords/yr.. We got like 3-4 cups with the first sweep in 4 years. Is this an exterior flue?
 

iceman

Minister of Fire
Nov 18, 2006
2,403
Springfield Ma (western mass)
BeGreen said:
I sweep about 2xs / year and get a couple of gallons of dry soot each time.

That seems quite high, especially for only 2 cords/yr.. We got like 3-4 cups with the first sweep in 4 years. Is this an exterior flue?



I thought the same thing maybe he meant couple of cups.... can't imagine that much with 2 cord unless ext chimney with no liner?


But its good to know that those temps are ok to burn
 

Northeaster1

New Member
Oct 10, 2008
119
Nova Scotia
(didn't mean to steal the thread)

It is an external chimney, with no liner.

I did mean gallons - I didn't measure though, but in a normal bucket (which I believe is 5 gallons) I usually have 1/3 full or so of soot. IIRC, once was only a fee cups, and once or twice seemed like 1/3 - 1/2 bucket.

Wood was good and dry last year. Not as dry the year before.

Likely would have less soot if I insulated the liner, but I have plenty of draft, and sweeping is easy, so haven't bothered.

Have block off plate, and sealed top, and stove seems to work great. When I load it full, for those overnight burns, the house gets very warm in the wee hours. I actually would not want more heat out of the stove, or more draft to burn through the wood quicker (and lessen the coals in the morning.)
 

precaud

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2006
2,307
Sunny New Mexico
iceman said:
Today I spoke with pe in regards to what overfire is... in specific temps... I was told that thermometers can greatly vary in temp, so take them as a guide but they are not a sure thing...

That is totally true. I have two, they track each other pretty well up to 300 or so and then read dramatically different from there up. When one is reading 750, the other is just 575.

I think people worry too much about overfiring. I think the real worry is with a runaway (uncontrollable) fire. As long as you can still control the burn rate with the air control, I wouldn't worry so much about what the temps read.
 

Sisu

Feeling the Heat
Sep 28, 2009
467
Ontario
My PE Pacific insert does dip into the 800 range occasionally when it is running 24/7. It also started getting cracked welds too, which were repaired last year. When I inspected the welds during the annual chimney sweep, I noticed some of the internal welds were cracking again.

When I spoke to Cory Iversen from Pacific Energy last year to deal with the issue, he stated that 800 range is not overfiring. He also stated that cracks in the internals have been observed before for stoves that are run 24/7 and are nothing to worry about.

Anyway, I emailed him this September with the pictures I took and I haven't received a reply yet. I called him in September only to be told he was out until Sept. 27. I called after the 27th, and left a voice message along with sending another email. Still no reply.

I have a nagging suspicion that he is avoiding me. I just wanted to get feedback as to whether or not these cracks will continue and eventually become external. I am not in a rush though. My 5 year warranty was extended into the end of 2011, so I have one more burn season to see if the cracks progress.

Any way the point of this message is that these stoves burn hot; and like what has already been stated you can't damper it down to reduce the temperature when it does take off. But make sure you inspect the welds of your PE stove too. Also, I hope to hear from PE soon. Their customer service so far is not as good as last year.
 
O

oldspark

Guest
"Any way the point of this message is that these stoves burn hot; and like what has already been stated you can’t damper it down to reduce the temperature when it does take off."
At what temp do you think this happens, so far with the small fires I have had in my summit (500 stack and 400 stove top after start up) if I dial the air back the stack drops off right away and the top drops after a bit. I am sure this depends on amount of draft and wood amount and dryness (my wood below 20%). Waiting untill the stove got to 500 to 600 degrees whould have my stack at 600 to 700 degrees which is actual 1200 or so if I had a probe type thermometer. :gulp:
 

precaud

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2006
2,307
Sunny New Mexico
...he stated that 800 range is not overfiring.
I totally agree. It is almost impossible to burn a fire of any reasonable size in my Quad without top plate temps going above 750. It's a sign of good, efficient operation, and the 3/8" top plate is there for that reason.

Remember, on these stoves, the top plate is the primary heat exchanger, and heat transfer efficiency increases dramatically as surface temps go up. Btu per hour per sq ft goes from 1,150 at 400F to 4,980 at 800F.
 

Sisu

Feeling the Heat
Sep 28, 2009
467
Ontario
oldspark said:
"Any way the point of this message is that these stoves burn hot; and like what has already been stated you can’t damper it down to reduce the temperature when it does take off."
At what temp do you think this happens, so far with the small fires I have had in my summit (500 stack and 400 stove top after start up) if I dial the air back the stack drops off right away and the top drops after a bit. I am sure this depends on amount of draft and wood amount and dryness (my wood below 20%). Waiting untill the stove got to 500 to 600 degrees whould have my stack at 600 to 700 degrees which is actual 1200 or so if I had a probe type thermometer. :gulp:

A full load of wood usually peaks in my Pacific Insert at between 750-800s. If I have been burning 24/7, sometimes parts of the baffle and/or side rails will glow a bit when the secondaries are burning as the stove reaches the peak temp. I will usually wait until the stove dies down to 200 before adding more wood. I will open it fully to burn the new wood to about 300 and then damper it down until it is fully dampered. The stove increases in temperature and the secondaries will be burning as it slowly reaches the peak temp and then gradually tapers off. The damper is fully closed, so there is no control left. Also, I have done the dollar bill test, so I know my door gasket is properly sealed.

I don't know if the inserts are different than the free-standing stoves. As far as I know, the internal firebox design is the same, so I would assume they are the same sort of animal. Maybe some Summit owners can add some more info.
 
O

oldspark

Guest
Sisu, I wonder what temp your stack is at 750-800 stove top, I do not feel comfortable with a 1200 to 1400 actual stack temp!
 

Sisu

Feeling the Heat
Sep 28, 2009
467
Ontario
oldspark said:
Sisu, I wonder what temp your stack is at 750-800 stove top, I do not feel comfortable with a 1200 to 1400 actual stack temp!

That I have no idea, since it not really accessible being an insert. I should clarify that 750-800s is not the stove top. I have the thermometers set up above the left and right sides of the door.
 

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precaud

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2006
2,307
Sunny New Mexico
Where are you guys pulling these numbers from? Under normal operating conditions, your stove top is always going to be hotter than your stove pipe. You're blowing this way out of proportion.
 
O

oldspark

Guest
precaud said:
Where are you guys pulling these numbers from? Under normal operating conditions, your stove top is always going to be hotter than your stove pipe. You're blowing this way out of proportion.
Not on start up and re load, I have preached this since I joined the forum last spring and I get shot down all the time, on a start up and reload your stack temp is going to be very high and I do not know why very few people monitor the stack temp.
 

precaud

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2006
2,307
Sunny New Mexico
Those are short-term events and velocity in the stack is higher during them, so stratification within the stack is higher. Maybe in the very center of the stack it gets that high, but not on the circumference, and that's what matters to chimneys. Again, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.
 
O

oldspark

Guest
precaud said:
Those are short-term events and velocity in the stack is higher during them, so stratification within the stack is higher. Maybe in the very center of the stack it gets that high, but not on the circumference, and that's what matters to chimneys. Again, I think you're blowing this way out of proportion.
It that hot on the surface of the stove pipe so why not the chimney, I do not think I am blowing this out of proportion, too high a stack temp is too high a stack temp period. Been burning for a long time and I know when the stack it too hot, I think this is why some people can not get there stove backed off because the stack it pushing 1200 degrees or more.
 

begreen

Mooderator
Staff member
Nov 18, 2005
89,564
South Puget Sound, WA
oldspark said:
precaud said:
Where are you guys pulling these numbers from? Under normal operating conditions, your stove top is always going to be hotter than your stove pipe. You're blowing this way out of proportion.
Not on start up and re load, I have preached this since I joined the forum last spring and I get shot down all the time, on a start up and reload your stack temp is going to be very high and I do not know why very few people monitor the stack temp.

I've not seen our stack temps exceed 700, with a probe thermometer under normal conditions with the T6, including at startup. This is measured using the older gen probe Condar on double-wall pipe and not one the new ones that were testing about 100+ degrees too high last season. The hottest I have seen it go was a brief foray to 900 °F when I deliberately simulated some of the user problems mentioned here by loading the stove on a hot coal bed with very dry wood. Even then, with stove top at 800, the stack was only about 100 deg. hotter.

Truth be told though, I have temporarily disabled the EBT with an aluminum foil plug. This may be stopping a larger post ignition flame traveling up the flue.
 
O

oldspark

Guest
Just this morning I had a stack temp of 450 to 500 stack (surface) while the stove top was 400, you are telling me this is not normal? I was told to double the surface mount compared to a probe type.
 

precaud

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2006
2,307
Sunny New Mexico
I keep my thermos 12" up on the pipe above both stoves. As BG knows, I definitely run my stoves on the hot side, and I have never seen anything anywhere near the stack temps you are claiming. And I have had a few runaway fires, with some sappy pieces of pine. No offense, but I'll remain totally skeptical until I see some evidence of it.

My bottom line is still: As long as you can control the burn rate with the primary air control, then you are fine. Losing control is where the trouble comes in. And if you're really worried about that, add shutters for the secondary inlet(s) so you can close them in an emergency. That's the first thing I do when I get a new stove.
 
O

oldspark

Guest
That is the actual temp not the surface temp, no way can I get the top to 700 or so at start up with out pushing the stack way above normal range. Ok if what you guys are telling me is true what the hell is wrong with my stove?
 

precaud

Minister of Fire
Jan 20, 2006
2,307
Sunny New Mexico
Probably nothing wrong at all. The temps inside the stack will always react more quickly to firing changes than the top plate will. Unless you have a marginal chimney, or are building your fires in the chamber above the firebox :) , no worries. I gather this is a new stove for you so you're still getting comfortable with it.
 
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