Pics of Cath's house, chimney & fireplace; and info on chimney & fireplace, as requested by Elk

[Cath]

Here are the pictures. As you may recall we are planning on installing a Vermont Cstings Winter Warm, small.

The preliminary guesstimate for labor only is $500.00. DH doesn't know if this includes cleaning or not. The installer is coming on Tuesday. I hope to have a more accurate figure then.

DH took some measurements and the opening at the damper (the throat?) is 4 3/4". The chimney is 25".

I'd appreciate any feedback.
~Cath

 

[elkimmeg]

Not so much a labor issue but you may have clearance problems with the mantel

$500 seems quite fair for stove installation liner installation and block off plate.. and proped sealing of the termination cap

As for the guy worried about installing a used stove ,Just have you permit in hand..

I would have the guy cut the damper frame to run 6" liner all the way.

Its not like you really want to go back burning an un lined fire place ever again

Love the decorations surounding that fireplace.

After seeing you home I think that winter warn will really take a bite out of your heating bill

 

[jjbaer]

Not so much a labor issue but you may have clearance problems with the mantel

The VC manual for the WW small located here:
(broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/2007/2000888_WinterWarmSi.pdf)

calls for 34" from the floor to the nearest wood (34" to trim and same to mantle top). I count 13-plus bricks from your floor to your nearest wood. I think a standard brick is 2.25" so I estimate about 31" with that additional part of a brick over 13 bricks. What do you measure from your floor to the nearest trim? The manual also says these clearences cannot be reduced by using a shield.

 

[BrotherBart]

Not so much a labor issue but you may have clearance problems with the mantel

The VC manual for the WW small located here:
(broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/2007/2000888_WinterWarmSi.pdf)

calls for 34" from the floor to the nearest wood (34" to trim and same to mantle top). I count 13-plus bricks from your floor to your nearest wood. I think a standard brick is 2.25" so I estimate about 31" with that additional part of a brick over 13 bricks. What do you measure from your floor to the nearest trim? The manual also says these clearences cannot be reduced by using a shield.

13 bricks with mortar between them is nominally 34".

 

[Cath]

Not so much a labor issue but you may have clearance problems with the mantel

$500 seems quite fair for stove installation liner installation and block off plate.. and proped sealing of the termination cap

As for the guy worried about installing a used stove ,Just have you permit in hand..

I would have the guy cut the damper frame to run 6" liner all the way.

Its not like you really want to go back burning an un lined fire place ever again

Love the decorations surounding that fireplace.

After seeing you home I think that winter warn will really take a bite out of your heating bill

Elk & Cast Iron,
Clearance Issue: The measurement from the hearth tile to the bottom of the "top trim" is 33 3/4". The hearth tile itself is a little more that 1/4". So, the easy way out would be to remove the tile and leave the unfinished cement. I suppose if you rough the concrete up and texture it that might not look too bad.

The wording in the manual indicates the measurement needs to be taken from the "finished" hearth, that would seem to rule out taking the measurement from the floor of the firebox, which is about a 1/4" lower than the top of the hearth tile. Is that because the insert will extend onto the hearth?

Also, the hearth is about 12" deep, so it will need to be extended by about 4".

Mantle Shield DH would like to use a mantle shield regardless of the required clearances. I'm guessing it can be painted to match the matte black surround. Does anyone have any other suggestions on how to make that as attractive as possible? For instance, is it possible to have something decorative fabricated? How expensive is that likely to be?

Installer's reluctance regarding used stove: I just learned that the installer is the owner of the local VC dealership and that he is charging $65.00 to come out. Should I be worried that he'll take a quick look, say he doesn't want to do it, take his $65.00 and leave? Or is the $500.00 installation fee enough of a motivator. Realistically, does that depend upon how quickly his business picks up this season? Is a dealer's mark-up on materials likely to be significantly higher than average? Also, if he does the installation should the $65.00 be applied towards the cost of the installation? Since it is a VC stove is it worth paying a premium to have a VC dealer install it?

Is it possible to find someone that does both the Chimney Sweeping and the Stove and Flue installation? Or is it understood that the installer will make sure that the chimney is clean?

Permit Formalities: Does the stove owner or the installer pull the permit? If either one can pull it do you think it would make a difference to the installer (VC dealership owner) if I pulled it?

Cutting or removing the damper: Is it easier to simply remove the damper?

Insulation: DH was wondering if there is a way to put a "pan" --with a 6" cut out for the flue-- on top of the insert to minimize heat loss? Or would you recommend the Rock Wool insulation around the flue pipe? Or could you do both? Where would the Rock Wool go, at the top or bottom, or along the whole length of the flue?

Do It Yourself Chimney Cleaning &/or Installation: DH is pretty handy and mechanically inclined. I know that he is capable of doing most, if not all of the installation. However, at a minimum I would like the insurance of having a professional clean the chimney --if a cleaning is necessary-- prior to installation since you can't re-do that later.

Is that overkill since he did clean it last Winter? Aside from a couple of brief test burns we haven't used it since. Would the whole chimney need to be swept again, just the firebox, or does it matter since a Stainless Steel liner is going in?

As cheap ... er frugal ... as I am I have no problem paying for someone to do the installation since DH is spread pretty thin right now with several large projects and one pretty consuming family issue (on his side). I thought he would be relieved but I'm starting to sense he is taking it as some sort of vote of non-confidence. Not to mention that as we get closer to the season it could become difficult to get a competitive quote. I wasn't going to spin my wheels on this until after the VC dealer/installer came out but the $65.00 price for a quote has got me thinking.

So, now that you've seen the pictures I'd appreciate any feedback on how DIY friendly an installation of this magnitude would be; and whether the savings on labor and materials mark-up is likely to be worth the aggravation. That doesn't even address this issue of whether I like the thought of him up on the roof, but that's his call not mine.

How would you go about finding accurate instructions for: cutting or removing the damper, lining the flue, and making the connections to the stove?

Also, does anyone know of any installers they can recommend in the Boston / South Shore area?

Thanks in advance for any input.
~Cath

 

[jqgs214]

Couple of quick answers -

Your hearth may need a longer extension than 4", you need 18" in front of the loading door now. Also as for your "pan" on flue for insulation, see the Wiki article for constructing a block-off plate which I would require the installer to do!.

 

[elkimmeg]

Cath most of your issues have been answered many times before A very detailed description of installing a liner was given with our installation of turner the burner vollenteer instaltion

The damper removal usually is sinply removing a few cotter pins Cutting the plate around it requires a bit more effort Nothing requiring rocket science
Possibly a 4" grinder witha thin metal cutting wheel that a rental shop should have.. A pair of decent tin snips then protective ware eyes breathing dust mask and leather gloves and rope

actually once he is situated at the peak of the roof it should go pretty easy dropping that liner down with the help of ropes you can assist him by tying off the liner he can pull up on the other end you can help guide the liner down using the rope eye and dust mask protection and gloves you can and will get a bit dirty

Most inspectors are not going to pick up 1/2" clearance issues in 34" I know I don't even streach out the ruller for 1/4"

You should get you permit then you control that end of it


A vc dealer is not the only game it town to install a used VC product I'm willing to bet there are other chimneysweeps toa will do it.

Boy do I wish I got $65 per visit . I would double my pay. I also wish I got $65 everytime I went to look at a job. I could make a living never lifting a tool

PM me the town you are in I just might know a sweep or two willing to do the job

 

[elkimmeg]

Another member of the donor crew PM me and suggested that we offer assistance with your installation
Personally for me,I could not s do it till the end of next month, but the others might be able to get it done sooner

If we decide I would talk to you inspector to see if he has any particular requirements and make sure we all start out on the same page.

Goose has offered and PM me GVA selling his home but still here to assist Keyman We can count on this might be enough and the western MA guys may not be needed.

I know Harley has a s stove donor type situation he is addressing And Hardwood and I are talking about another situation Then Keyman has another canidates or two

I have one but not considerd needy willing to pay for the stove to replace a smoke dragon.

 

[Cath]

Elk,
I really appreciate the offer. I don't think DH could do it until well into next month anyway. Like you he's got a lot going on right now including helping his brother with remodelling a kitchen. I'll discuss with him tonight and post back.

Hope you had a good weekend.
~Cath

 

[Cath]

Elk,
I can't tell if you received my reply to your email so I am responding to your last post in this thread in case my email wound up in your junk mail folder.

DH and I would like to take you up on your offer. I should put together a budget for parts and materials. There are a couple of Aubochon hardware stores within 20 miles or so. I checked out their website and they have 6" double walled pipe in 3 foot sections for $109.00 or so. DH seems to think we need a continuous piece. When I have a chance I'll call to out if they carry something like that in a 25' piece and if so, what the charge per foot would be. I seem to remember that it should be in the $30.00 to $40.00 range.

Unless you know where to a competitive price in the Boston / South Shore area. And do you know where I can find rock wool and how much that should cost?

Also, would you recommend having a chimney sweep do a cleaning before the installation?

Thanks again for all of the feedback.
~Cath

 

[Gooserider]

Cath,

Elk is the expert, but I suspect he would tell you NOT to get the double walled connector pipe - it wouldn't be compliant. What you need is an insulated chimney liner kit - which you should probably plan on getting online, I think if you do a search on that you will find a bunch of sources that others have had good experiences with.

However I would let Elk suggest a shopping list for you.

Some of your other questions...

Clearance Issue: The measurement from the hearth tile to the bottom of the “top trim” is 33 3/4”. The hearth tile itself is a little more that 1/4”. So, the easy way out would be to remove the tile and leave the unfinished cement. I suppose if you rough the concrete up and texture it that might not look too bad.

The wording in the manual indicates the measurement needs to be taken from the “finished” hearth, that would seem to rule out taking the measurement from the floor of the firebox, which is about a 1/4” lower than the top of the hearth tile. Is that because the insert will extend onto the hearth?

It's an "Elk question", but I see two possible points of concern - the distance to the trim at the bottom of the mantle, and how far out the "shelf" of the mantle extends - the clearance requirements for some inserts depends on how far out the wood is sticking. As others have said you can probably slide a bit on the 34" number, I don't know about the other.

Also, the hearth is about 12” deep, so it will need to be extended by about 4”.

Actually a bit more than that if the insert sticks out, you need a minimum of 18" in front of the loading door as of the rule change earlier this year. Looking at your pictures, I'd probably rout out the floor boards and add more tiles (maybe with a layer of cement board underneath them) - it might be easier to replace all the tiles (or at least the ones that show) than to try and color match the ones that are there.

Mantle Shield DH would like to use a mantle shield regardless of the required clearances. I’m guessing it can be painted to match the matte black surround. Does anyone have any other suggestions on how to make that as attractive as possible? For instance, is it possible to have something decorative fabricated? How expensive is that likely to be?

There are a couple of different approaches, depending on just what you want to shield. I would consider getting a strip of sheet metal formed to the approximate profile and mount that on spacers in front of the mantle. Paint to match whatevers behind it. Not sure what it would cost, but I would guess not that much.

Installer’s reluctance regarding used stove: I just learned that the installer is the owner of the local VC dealership and that he is charging $65.00 to come out. Should I be worried that he’ll take a quick look, say he doesn’t want to do it, take his $65.00 and leave? Or is the $500.00 installation fee enough of a motivator. Realistically, does that depend upon how quickly his business picks up this season? Is a dealer’s mark-up on materials likely to be significantly higher than average? Also, if he does the installation should the $65.00 be applied towards the cost of the installation? Since it is a VC stove is it worth paying a premium to have a VC dealer install it?

A lot of the reluctance may be related to liability insurance - if he installs a used stove will his business insurance cover him if your house burns down and he gets sued? Something you'd have to negotiate with him, but finding an installer that will do the job can be the hardest part of dealing with a used stove - unless the donor crew comes to the rescue...

Is it possible to find someone that does both the Chimney Sweeping and the Stove and Flue installation? Or is it understood that the installer will make sure that the chimney is clean?

Again depends on the installer, some will want to sweep regardless, others might want you to have it done... I suspect that we would want to do it as part of making sure everything was in good shape.

Permit Formalities: Does the stove owner or the installer pull the permit? If either one can pull it do you think it would make a difference to the installer (VC dealership owner) if I pulled it?

Elk knows more about this than I do, but as I understand the rules, you can pull it as the home owner, or a MA licensed contractor can pull it. Given that pulling paper requires a trip to your Town Hall or some such, I'd bet the installer would be much happier if you pulled the paper for him. This also gives you more flexibility and control - if the installer pulls the paper, he's the only one that can do the job, if you pull it, anyone that you are supervising can do it.

Cutting or removing the damper: Is it easier to simply remove the damper?

Removing the damper is normally easy, but often the hole in the damper frame isn't big enough to get the liner through, so it is necessary to enlarge the hole in the frame - note that this makes it almost impossible to go back to running as a standard fireplace, but I don't think you'd want to, so that shouldn't be a big deal...

continued in next post!

 

[Gooserider]

Insulation: DH was wondering if there is a way to put a “pan” --with a 6” cut out for the flue-- on top of the insert to minimize heat loss? Or would you recommend the Rock Wool insulation around the flue pipe? Or could you do both? Where would the Rock Wool go, at the top or bottom, or along the whole length of the flue?

Assuming your chimney flue is big enough to allow it, you should have an insulated liner, which puts an insulation blanket along the entire length of the liner. You would then add a block off plate at the bottom of the flue, and pack rock wool around the liner just above the plate.

Do It Yourself Chimney Cleaning &/or Installation: DH is pretty handy and mechanically inclined. I know that he is capable of doing most, if not all of the installation. However, at a minimum I would like the insurance of having a professional clean the chimney --if a cleaning is necessary-- prior to installation since you can’t re-do that later.

I would clean it or have it cleaned, but I don't think you need a pro to do it.

Is that overkill since he did clean it last Winter? Aside from a couple of brief test burns we haven’t used it since. Would the whole chimney need to be swept again, just the firebox, or does it matter since a Stainless Steel liner is going in?

I suspect that it isn't critical as long as the liner is insulated and the chimney is reasonably clean... (and note that test burns can be the worst for creosote since the stack never gets up to temperature)

As cheap ... er frugal ... as I am I have no problem paying for someone to do the installation since DH is spread pretty thin right now with several large projects and one pretty consuming family issue (on his side). I thought he would be relieved but I’m starting to sense he is taking it as some sort of vote of non-confidence. Not to mention that as we get closer to the season it could become difficult to get a competitive quote. I wasn’t going to spin my wheels on this until after the VC dealer/installer came out but the $65.00 price for a quote has got me thinking.

TANSTAAFL - $65 isn't an unreasonable price for a house call...

So, now that you’ve seen the pictures I’d appreciate any feedback on how DIY friendly an installation of this magnitude would be; and whether the savings on labor and materials mark-up is likely to be worth the aggravation. That doesn’t even address this issue of whether I like the thought of him up on the roof, but that’s his call not mine.

Do you know what the roof pitch is? Is it the same slope on the back as it is on the front? It looks fairly steep, but pictures can be decieving. Thats the only thing that makes it look like a problem to me, though Elk and Key might see issues that I missed.

How would you go about finding accurate instructions for: cutting or removing the damper, lining the flue, and making the connections to the stove?

"Use the SEARCH, Cath!" :coolhmm: All this has been covered before in greater detail, it's just a question of finding it.

Gooserider

 

[Cath]

Gooserider,
Thanks for the feedback.

I searched "install" and "installation". I found one thread on the donor installation for the Vet but nothing there seemed directly relevant to us since the focus was on the stove.

I did stumble across a couple of post-installation threads by new members that serve as cautionary tales and do give me some idea of the issues to be concerned about. They also serve as a useful reminder of why it is good to discover this site before the installation.

I have a couple of days off this week so I will try and take a closer look at the VC manual, assuming I can keep the 2 kids quiet for more than 1/2 an hour at a shot.

In the meanwhile, I think I'll follow up with Elk by PM regarding a parts and materials list.

One minor question, realistically what are the chances of being able to cut the damper in such a way as to be able to use the fireplace as a fireplace again?
~Cath

 

[Gooserider]

Gooserider,
Thanks for the feedback.

I searched "install" and "installation". I found one thread on the donor installation for the Vet but nothing there seemed directly relevant to us since the focus was on the stove.

I did stumble across a couple of post-installation threads by new members that serve as cautionary tales and do give me some idea of the issues to be concerned about. They also serve as a useful reminder of why it is good to discover this site before the installation.

I have a couple of days off this week so I will try and take a closer look at the VC manual, assuming I can keep the 2 kids quiet for more than 1/2 an hour at a shot.

In the meanwhile, I think I'll follow up with Elk by PM regarding a parts and materials list.

One minor question, realistically what are the chances of being able to cut the damper in such a way as to be able to use the fireplace as a fireplace again?
~Cath

I would suggest searching more on the topics you're looking for info on, rather than just "install" or "installation" - it takes practice to use the search, most of which is trying to guess what terms the people writing about what you're looking for were using. I would try something like "mantle shield" for instance...

In terms of cutting the damper - if all you have to do is pull out the damper plate itself, then restoring the fireplace function is no big deal, assuming you hide the plate somewheres where it can be found later. However a lot of damper throats are to narrow to get a liner through without flattening it excessively, in which case you need to cut the damper frame - once you do that it becomes effectively impossible to restore the fireplace to proper function w/o major surgery as you no longer have the seat for the damper plate to seal against. However given all the negatives about using a fireplace as a fireplace (heat loss, inefficiency, pollution, etc) I wouldn't think that is a major concern. If you were worried about taking the insert with you if / when you move, I would say not to plan on it - the odds of your next house being able to use the same insert are slim enough that I would expect you to be better off selling the current house with the insert and buying an apropriate new heater for the new digs...

Gooserider