Please help! New install....pipe doesn't look right...

[marylu]

I really need some advice here. We purchased a Harmon XXV and it was installed Monday. I will post pictures below to help explain my questions.

We ordered the 6" top vent option for the XXV as we wanted a wood stove/pipe look as we previously had a 1907 Round Oak parlor stove in this location. The masonry chimney is located out from the corner about 20 inches on the side wall.

The installer said that the top vent could not be used. Not really sure why. Does the top vent come up almost directly at the back of the stove or does it extend back and then up? I guess I am having some trouble understanding "why" it wouldn't work? I am thinking of calling the store back, but I don't want to play the "fool" if what we wanted to do is really not possible.

He used a 4" pipe instead. Also according to him, he could not install the pipes any other way. Something to do with angles of the elbows. The stove is pushed way back into the corner. We would have been fine with the stove sitting out further from the corner if it meant that the top vent would work. Also, as you can see, the hearth pad is plenty big enough to pull the stove our further.

The end result was that he added an extension to the pipe coming out from the stove, then straight up using several sections of pipe ( well supposed to be straight, but the top section before the elbow actually slants back and is not "straight" up), then an elbow, then another pipe, then elbowed again into the chimney.

This just does not seem right. I asked him several times ( at least 3 or 4 times) couldn't the pipe that is slanting back be straightened or shortened or something and I was told, nope won't work. Again something to do with the angles of the elbows.

So am I expecting too much, is he correct or is he pulling my leg? I must say that for the money we spent, I am disappointed in the way the pipes look.

Please post pics if you have used the top vent with an XXV. I have tried searching for pictures but haven't been able to find any. Any/all help would be greatly appreciated.
Marylu

 

[nshif]

Pic 1 that is just wrong, angle piece is to long.
Pic2 How close is that bottom flue piece to the subfloor? dont think thats gonna fly without something non flamable below it.
Pic 3 It looks like he angled the pipe from the exit wall to the back wall and had he come straight the stove would sit further out.
Stove also looks way to close to the walls. Was this inspected??? ELK

 

[Corie]

Complete nonsense.

WADR, that install looks like total crap. I would be very unhappy.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

No way. Dont let that one slide. Thats a hack job. Hopefully the installer doesnt own the company.

 

[babalu87]

Thats HORRIBLE

In Mass it has to be inspected prior to its first burn.
I cant believe someone walked away from that job thinking it was not only complete but safe.

 

[marylu]

So far it looks like I am really not being too "picky"? I tend to be somewhat of a perfectionist, but ....this just did not seem right.

Does anyone have an install similar to mine that is done "correctly"? Could you post pictures? Also pics of a top vent adaptor showing the back/side of the stove would be great.

I have to call the store tomorrow as they charged me for the top vent that was not installed.
Marylu

 

[GVA]

I'm not quite sure here but in pic 1 it doesn't look like pv pipe, big gap on the left.... doesn't look like locking type (at least where the tek screws are installed).
2nd the cleanout t looks to be about an inch off the ground....... probably cant even get the cover off.
3rd it does look like if you brought that stove out to where the other one was it would have gone as top vent fine?
Do you have a picture of the old stove that you can post in this thread? (i think you had one I may be confused though)

Bottom line though Demand satisfaction that pipe looks like crap

 

[Hogwildz]

So far it looks like I am really not being too "picky"? I tend to be somewhat of a perfectionist, but ....this just did not seem right.

Does anyone have an install similar to mine that is done "correctly"? Could you post pictures? Also pics of a top vent adaptor showing the back/side of the stove would be great.

I have to call the store tomorrow as they charged me for the top vent that was not installed.
Marylu

You paid good hard earned money for a service. If that service is shabby, and incorrect, then your not being picky. You just want what you paid for done CORRECTLY!
I am by no means a professional, but I can even see thats a toal hack job, from a shop that supposedly is professionals. How much time did they spend to do this? Looks like a rush job to me. Yet another reason I am doing my own install. If I was you I'd take a crapload of pictures and call the owner demanding it be done right. In the event of a fire, they would be liable for it. But won't do you any good if your not alive to tell about it. Good luck and I am sorry you have to go throught this, even when you paid a supposed pro to do it so you could feel safe.

 

[Mike Wilson]

So far it looks like I am really not being too "picky"?

This is not a matter of being picky. You got screwed.

Fight them.

-- Mike

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

I'm not quite sure here but in pic 1 it doesn't look like pv pipe, big gap on the left.... doesn't look like locking type (at least where the tek screws are installed).
2nd the cleanout t looks to be about an inch off the ground....... probably cant even get the cover off.
3rd it does look like if you brought that stove out to where the other one was it would have gone as top vent fine?
Do you have a picture of the old stove that you can post in this thread? (i think you had one I may be confused though)

Bottom line though Demand satisfaction that pipe looks like crap

The piece on the left is a slip joint, its just tweaked and gobbed with RTV. Ugly. but ligit
The install is probably safe, just a hack job. The T can be one inch off the ground, thats the listed clearace, but no, you cant get it off to clean.

 

[webbie]

I concur that stove is probably safe, but the guy should carry some rags in his truck. Hopefully, Harryback or other harman dealer will weigh in on the top vent thing. Pellet pipe is typically 3 or 4".

 

[marylu]

You guys are making me feel better, that it is not just "me" that thinks it is a very poor job!

I talked with my husband tonight, and he said that he was surprised that I didn't demand that the installer re-do or fix it the day of the install. But I did mention/ask repeatedly if if couldn't be fixed or done differently and the answer was always "no, this is the way it has to be."

I had some conerns too about the clean out in the back. But as I have never had a pellet stove before I wasn't sure what is involved in cleaning, at least not yet.

I'm not sure if the pipe would go direct/straight over to the chimney if the stove was pulled further out or how far it would have to be pulled out. The way the pipes are angled back from the top makes it hard to judge. It wouldn't work well the way they have the back now, especially with the extension in the "T". But maybe the top vent kit would have helped make that adjustment, especially if it goes up more quickly and is close to the back of the stove?

That is one reason I was hoping someone would have pictures of the top vent option they would be willing to share. We did order the top vent, but the installer never brought it into the house. So I have no idea how it looked or how it would have attached to the stove. He just said imediately that the top vent "wouldn't work". Wish I had been firmer at the time. At least asked him to bring it in and show me "why" it wouldn't work.

Below are pictures of the stove we had in this location previously.

 

[GVA]

yeah I think the top vent would have been a nice setup here... Maybe the installer was not familiar with the piping for it....

I looked earlier for top vent xxv's here, I know i've seen at least one but just can't seem to find it

And slip joint or not I always thought that those were usually hidden if at all possible.

 

[marylu]

Craig, not sure what you meant about the rags? Did you mean he was messy or something else?

I think the picture is a little decieving for the clearances. The stove, set at an angle as it is, does meet clearance requirements, I believe. From the cast iron corners it is almost 9 inches to the wall. The stove pipe is, at it's closest point, is about 7 1/2 inches from the wall. (on the left side)

The bottom of the T in the back is actually almost 6 inches from the floor. Taking the picture from the top was about the only way I could get a shot.

 

[MrGriz]

I don't think you're being picky at all. If that install was in my house it would be awful funny how my check wouldn't clear...something about the angles and it's just not going to clear until it's done right. The bottom line is you pay good money, you should be satisfied with either the job you get or the explanation as to why it has to be the way it is.

 

[HarryBack]

grrrr.....I found a picture of the topvent in a .pdf file, but I cant convert it to .jpg! Had a 3000 word post I lost too....here I go again! As Marylu says, since the T is off the floor by 6", its only an optical illusion that the cap wont come off...with that kind of room, it should.

Figure 1 is an adjustable section, and its 3" pipe, not 4". The weird deviation here, or lack of plumb is most likely due to a poor choice of lower pellet pipe lengths...if they were slightly longer, or maybe not inserted so far into the adjustable length, it would look better. Im hoping also that the clear silicone used is RTV and not regular clear silicone....The installer did do a messy job there, gooping it all over black pipe and not wiping it down.....its removeable tho.

Im not really thrilled with where I see the probe going in Figure 2. It seems to go under the unit, which, even though I agree the probe should be low for the cooler air, I think its too close to the stove...Id try moving it around a bit.

The top vent option should work in this case. When using the topvent option, you dont use the nipple bolted to the stove shown in figure 2. The topvent consists of a steel closed channel which bolts the the stove outlet, and follows up the backside of the stove, then cantilevers out over the top a couple inches, where a 1' section of 4" pellet pipe sits to act as an insulator. This 4" pipe sits inside the 6" stove pipe used for exhast, so you dont see it. Since the exhaust at this point is likely positive pressure, Id prefer to see solid elbows and welded seam pipe here, rather than adjustable elbows, since they could leak, but in your case you will most likely need adjustable sections to meet your odd connection...id make sure they are sealed well anyways. You also cant put the elbow right at the stove, as the 1' PV section HAS to be in place, youd be putting an elbow a bit higher. I think its do-able tho..some RTV and a pair of electric shears!

Anyways, heres a link to the XXV manual, and if you look on page 28, you'll see a topvent, but without the included 1' section...sorry, its the best I can do for pictures!

http://harmanstoves.com/doc/xxvm.pdf

Great idea putting the rocking chair in the archway where it is....that stoveboard would be a major toe-stubber!

I think the installation as is would pass inspection, and is most likely a safe one, albeit an ugly, messy one.

The Top Vent option isnt a cheap one either...somewhere around $150-$200! If he doesnt use it, get the money back!

Have him SHOW you why the topvent wont work.......if it wont, he should be able to tell you why, and get you to understand it. Did he even have one with him? Is the reason it wont work because he doesnt have or cant get one?

And MrGriz.....beware of your fraudulent practice of cancelling checks before they get cashed. In most cases, by paying with a check or cash, you are accepting the job as done. By paying with a check, and then cancelling it before the vendor can cash it, well, thats check fraud. Id suggest you dont pay until you are satisfied with the job, or like Elk says, when it passes inspection. Although, as a dealer, Id have to submit that if the inspection does pass and the stove hasnt been paid for, that the permit is withheld until the vendor has been paid in full for services rendered. I dont know what state you are in, but here in MA, the civil pentalty for check fraud is the amount due+cost of the suit+protest fees. The criminal penalty is up to $600 fine and 2 years in jail.

Marylu...hope this helps...good luck and be persistent!

 

[MrGriz]

HB,
I should have stated it more clearly; I was trying to be a bit humerous and as usual, it didn't work. What I am suggesting is exactly what you and Elk advocate; don't make final payment until the final inspection has been signed off on. I certainly would not advocate check fraud as a means to any end.

That being said, I usually do not accept final payment from a customer until I have inspected the installation myself. I trust my installers and have good history with them, but you never know what can happen (I sell and install flooring and window treatments). I also think this personal attention goes a long way to building a good relationship with my customers.

 

[HarryBack]

a post-installation jobsite visit from the owner is a great idea, Griz!

 

[webbie]

Craig, not sure what you meant about the rags? Did you mean he was messy or something else?

Yeah, I meant he could of cleaned up the silicone a bit better.

I can attest that this pipe gets scratched easily and messed up when you install it - but anyone who does it for a living should have touch-up and you should not (in general) see gobs of silicone.

 

[MountainStoveGuy]

If that was old chimmey pipe why couldnt he have run single wall pipe and connect it to the chimney? That would have looked alot more natural and the elbows would have swivled enough to make it right. Quad has that recommed installation in there manual as long as you use the top vent kit and the 3-6 adapter that they make. Does harmon make that?

 

[begreen]

You have my sympathy MaryLu. Your previous install was a beautiful conversation piece and a nice visual. The new stove looks nice, but there is nothing that sets it awry like a crooked pipe. Obviously the installer just saw it as another job and nothing more. He was a slob to leave silicone on the pipe surface and that sure looks like regular silicone and not rtv (high-heat silicone sealant.). It looks like he just grabbed whatever pipe he had on the truck instead of being prepared with the right stuff to make the job look sharp.

The good news is that this can be corrected pretty easily. The stove looks like it can come forward a bit on the hearth and the piping can be done much more cleanly and all in one sized pipe. Besides a rag, one other tool that will really help this installation is a level. A slightly out of plumb pipe really hurts the eyes. Stand by your guns and get the stove shop owner on site to see what the issues are. If he's worth his salt, he'll get it fixed. This is not subtle. If not, maybe show up with the pictures blown up to 11 x 17 on a Saturday and ask if this is what one should expect from his installers.

 

[marylu]

First, I would like to thank each and everyone of you for taking the time to respond to my post. It has helped me to decide to contact the store tomorrow about the installation.

Harryback....thank you also for taking the time to write your reply twice! Aren't computers fun sometimes? Your explanation does make sense to me. For some reason the picture in the on-line manual is more visually explanatory than the hardcopy I have of the manual. I appreciate your effort to find a picture for me. Supposedly the top vent kit was ordered for me and was received by the store prior to the installation. I had called the week before installation to ensure that the kit had come in so that installation could proceed. Why oh why didn't I ask him to bring it in and demonstrate why it wouldn't work? Sure would have saved me time and anxiety.

After thinking about it tonight, I have decided to email the store tonight and explain my concerns about the install in the email. I will also include a link to this thread. I hope this is acceptable? Not only does this thread include pictures of the install, it also expresses my concerns and the validation of those concerns by each of you in your posts. I also think that the pictures demonstrate well my dislike of the overall lack of an asthetically pleasing install.

We paid the extra $$$ to get a top of the line stove, were willing to pay the extra $$ to have the top vent installed so that it would be a visually pleasing look, to match the age of our home. I do not feel the current install does this.

I will keep everyone posted on the response from the vendor.

Again, thank you to everyone for your responses.
Marylu

 

[HarryBack]

well, go ahead and email, Marylu, but CALL TOO! Emails can get deleted or are easily unread...hard to ignore a phone call! Good luck!

 

[HarryBack]

If that was old chimmey pipe why couldnt he have run single wall pipe and connect it to the chimney? That would have looked alot more natural and the elbows would have swivled enough to make it right. Quad has that recommed installation in there manual as long as you use the top vent kit and the 3-6 adapter that they make. Does harmon make that?

Harman doesnt make a 3-6 adapter, but Duravent does. Irrelevant anyways tho, since with the topvent kit you are supposed to use full-size 6" pipe. As I alluded to in my previous post, Id prefer the pipe be heavier welded seam pipe, since its likely to be a positive pressure situation (wanting to leak), instead of the negative pressure situation that normally occurs with coal/woodstoves. Most likely no way out of swiveling elbows here, but they tend to leak in positive pressure situations, so they'd need to be sealed.

 

[elkimmeg]

International Building codes of 2006

Section 115 WorkManship

115.1 General: All work shall be conducted., Installed and completed in a workmanlike
and acceptable manner so as to secure the results intended by this code


These are the situations where requiring final payment upon approval of the inspections dept.

There are two issues here concerning payment the installer / retailer wants to be paid
His fear is the homeowner has a part of his money and may not forward that final check in a timely fashion or not at all.
I too have been stiffed too many times, not being able to collect what is due to me.
Here is a compromise solution and it should happen this way.
The installer obtains the permit. When all is said and done, the compliance certificate is issued to the person's who's name is on the permit.
m the installer/retiler now has the piece of paper the homeowner needs. His odds of getting paid have increased dramatically.

Why is this not standard practice? One a lot of installers are neither licenced or insured. They use the homeowner exemption ( homeowner obtains the permit) to skirt
the usual requirements. To obtain a permit an installer would have to produce proof of being licenced and insured before permit issuance.

the codes are in place to protect the homeowner. By homeowners obtaining the permits ther wave the right to hire licenced and insured installers.

Really the homeowner exemptions are for homeowners to work on their own homes not to hire unlicenced un insured contractors.
The state of RI adress this issue by requiring installers hired by homeowners to notify the town they are working in and supply proof of RI contractor's licence.

This is the age of technology you can apply for a permit on line or use a fax machine there is no excuse for a dealer or installer for not having a permit
Infact if a permit was not pulled for this job, the inspector could demand it removal. Because it was done illegally. No stove installation can be done without a permit.

I have had to excersise the removal process, happend to be my favorite stove company Zolgelzang junk installed without a permit.

Did you know if I drive by your home and suspect you have installed a stove without a permit that codes allow me to notify you to have it removed and from that day forward you will be fined up to the maxium of $500 a day each day the violation exist. No, personally I do not drive around looking for illegal installs. But I know they exist.

My time is spent here trying to help people get it done right the first time