Plumbing

[SpaceBus]

I've been trying to get the plumber to come out to my house just to give me an estimate and schedule a date for work to begin for my cook stove/range boiler. I'm starting to think they don't want the work, so perhaps it's time to learn how to solder pipes. I've been watching some videos and I think tomorrow I'll stop in the store for some wire brushes and try to practice on the stuff left over from previous repairs.

Any advice from folks who have worked with this stuff before? I'm also looking to install an electric on demand water heater as a backup since our current setup is really old. The whole plumbing situation in the utility room is terrible. I'm also going to try and tie in the rooftop solar water heater. There is an existing 110 pump that is very quiet I'd like to continue using. I'd like the pump to turn off when the water in the tank reaches 120dF or something like that. Is this where an aquastat would be used with the pump? There are currently sensors and a special panel to control the current system, but the electro-magnetic valves used for freeze protection (the system was designed to be used in the winter for some reason) are ridiculously loud. All of this stuff is from the 70's and basically unused, due to the super loud valves I'm sure. There are some leaks where the old manual valves are connected to the hot water tank plumbing, but I'm getting rid of all of that. Hopefully some of the copper pipe can be saved, but who knows.

 

[SpaceBus]

Also, any advice on pex? I don't really like the idea personally, and neither does my wife, but I like the manifolds that folks use with them. Can you use a manifold with copper plumbing?

 

[bholler]

Also, any advice on pex? I don't really like the idea personally, and neither does my wife, but I like the manifolds that folks use with them. Can you use a manifold with copper plumbing?

All I use is pex now. It has been used here for close to 20 years with no problems other than some bad fittings. And in Europe much longer. Yes of course you could use a manifold for copper but the cost for materials would be astronomical.

 

[begreen]

I still use copper in our house. It's a bit more work, but not hard to make a good solder joint with patience. Clean both the pipe end and fitting until clear copper color is showing. You can use a tool or emery paper for this. Brush on a little flux on the clean copper piece, then join them and heat underneath the joint with a propane torch. Have the solder ready and touch it to the lip of the fitting. When the fitting is hot enough the copper will get sucked into the joint. Stop feeding solder when the joint starts to drip. Take a damp rag and wipe the joint gently then let cool.

How To Solder Copper Pipes

Learn how to solder copper pipes for the best fit. Read this guide to find out how to deburr, clean and solder copper tubing and copper pipe fittings.

www.homedepot.com

 

[bholler]

I would use pex for most of the plumbing but I think I would stick to copper from the stove to tank. Like bg said it isn't really very hard. Get a map torch not propane. Yes they cost a little more but the work much better.

 

[bholler]

And make sure you really understand how to properly plumb the wood boiler. If done wrong the results can be disaterous.

 

[SpaceBus]

And make sure you really understand how to properly plumb the wood boiler. If done wrong the results can be disaterous.

Indeed. This isn't a full blown boiler, but a domestic hot water system powered mostly by hot water loop in the cook stove.

Domestic Hot Water and Wood Cookstoves: What To Know - Cookstove Community

Domestic Hot Water is a fantastic option for many woodstoves and cookstoves. But how does it actually work?

cookstoves.net

My goal is to create a thermosiphon like at the above link under the "passive" system diagram. My range boiler is on the floor above where the cook stove will be. The actual tank will sit above and a few feet to the left of the cook stove/hot water coil. I think the hard part will be integrating the solar water heater into the system.

I attached a similar setup.

 

[WinterinWI]

Pex would be easier. I've never worked with it and still do all copper. Bg gave good advice. Its not hard to learn, just takes a little practice. Do a bunch of practice joints on some old stuff if you have some laying around. It's easier to learn practicing on the workbench than the typically tight spaces during the install (with combustibles around).

 

[SpaceBus]

Thankfully the builder of the house left all of the plumbing exposed, so there shouldn't be any crazy tight spaces. I'm fairly certain that there will be enough copper recovered from the current maze of plumbing to create the whole new system!

 

[bholler]

Indeed. This isn't a full blown boiler, but a domestic hot water system powered mostly by hot water loop in the cook stove.

Domestic Hot Water and Wood Cookstoves: What To Know - Cookstove Community

Domestic Hot Water is a fantastic option for many woodstoves and cookstoves. But how does it actually work?

cookstoves.net

My goal is to create a thermosiphon like at the above link under the "passive" system diagram. My range boiler is on the floor above where the cook stove will be. The actual tank will sit above and a few feet to the left of the cook stove/hot water coil. I think the hard part will be integrating the solar water heater into the system.

I attached a similar setup.

Yes I know that it isn't a boiler. At least it shouldn't be as long as the system is designed and installed properly

 

[SpaceBus]

Yes I know that it isn't a boiler. At least it shouldn't be as long as the system is designed and installed properly

Indeed, it should NOT be a boiler! According to my research as long as I have one foot of rise for every two feet of run I should be able to thermosiphon. The trick is going to be making this all aesthetically pleasing...

Edit: I'm also going to use 1" pipe from the range boiler to the DHW Coil.

 

[peakbagger]

A few soldering caveats.

Make sure you use lead free solder. I think you can still use regular lead solder for heating and non potable but lead free for potable. IMO, the lead solder was easier to work with but since you are new to it you wont know the difference. The problem you will have is the house may be old enough that your existing fittings may have lead in them so reusing the piping and fittings may mean getting a dose of lead.

Have pile of damp rags and as soon as you are done the joint wipe the joint down. Flux left on pipes eventually turns green. You should have a clean smooth radius of solder around the joint when you are done

Definitely use mapp gas and a push button torch. Everything heats up quicker.

Make sure you use a heat shield when soldering in close quarters to wood. You can char wood quickly even though the visible flame is well away from the wood. In industry a fire watch is used to catch any smoldering fires. Make sure you keep an eye on the location you were soldering for an hour or so unless there was nothing flammable nearby.

Go on amazon or a big hardware store and pick up a four way pipe cleaning brush. Speeds things up. If you are messing with 1" pipe then its back to emery cloth.

You can reuse fittings but its takes a bit more skill to get them clean. Sometimes its not worth it if you have to overheat the fitting to get it apart.

Buying fittings one at time is expensive. Far better to buy a bunch and then return the ones you don't use. Prices can vary widely. Sometimes Home Depot is reasonable other times they are expensive.

You can not solder a damp joint. The water has to be totally off, no drips. There are tricks to deal with damp lines but frequently they lead to poor joints.

Some valves and specialty fittings have to be disassembled to be soldered. There is usually a warning in the package. Always take a union aprt before soldering and be careful you don't drop solder on the seat of the union. If you solder a union while its together the solder may wick into the seats making it very difficult to get the union apart.

There are quite few combined fittings that can save a lot of time and space. Webstone makes lot of them.

I have been burned in the past depending on other peoples ability to solder that I encounter on old work. Make sure you inspect all existing joints to make sure there is a clean ring of solder at the joints.

 

[SpaceBus]

A few soldering caveats.

Make sure you use lead free solder. I think you can still use regular lead solder for heating and non potable but lead free for potable. IMO, the lead solder was easier to work with but since you are new to it you wont know the difference. The problem you will have is the house may be old enough that your existing fittings may have lead in them so reusing the piping and fittings may mean getting a dose of lead.

Have pile of damp rags and as soon as you are done the joint wipe the joint down. Flux left on pipes eventually turns green. You should have a clean smooth radius of solder around the joint when you are done

Definitely use mapp gas and a push button torch. Everything heats up quicker.

Make sure you use a heat shield when soldering in close quarters to wood. You can char wood quickly even though the visible flame is well away from the wood. In industry a fire watch is used to catch any smoldering fires. Make sure you keep an eye on the location you were soldering for an hour or so unless there was nothing flammable nearby.

Go on amazon or a big hardware store and pick up a four way pipe cleaning brush. Speeds things up. If you are messing with 1" pipe then its back to emery cloth.

You can reuse fittings but its takes a bit more skill to get them clean. Sometimes its not worth it if you have to overheat the fitting to get it apart.

Buying fittings one at time is expensive. Far better to buy a bunch and then return the ones you don't use. Prices can vary widely. Sometimes Home Depot is reasonable other times they are expensive.

You can not solder a damp joint. The water has to be totally off, no drips. There are tricks to deal with damp lines but frequently they lead to poor joints.

Some valves and specialty fittings have to be disassembled to be soldered. There is usually a warning in the package. Always take a union aprt before soldering and be careful you don't drop solder on the seat of the union. If you solder a union while its together the solder may wick into the seats making it very difficult to get the union apart.

There are quite few combined fittings that can save a lot of time and space. Webstone makes lot of them.

Thanks for the tips!

 

[AlbergSteve]

Ask questions, do a bit of research, common sense and possess opposable thumbs you can plumb your house.

 

[Bad LP]

Wirsbo AKA PEX . I had my doubts when I was GCing my house when the plumber pushed me for it over copper for the same price. I was nervous but he said over what?? You have thousands of feet of buried in concrete and that's OK. Point taken.

I wouldn't use it for near boiler piping but I have the M12 Milwaukee expander now with a bunch of fittings. If I never touch another sweat joint again I'll be happy.

 

[peakbagger]

I also have the Wirsbo expander, its was not cheap. I did one large home job with it based on the the recomendation of a friend that used copper for 30 plus years, he switched to PEX as it cut way down on having to use a torch.

 

[Medic21]

I’m sitting on my porch waiting on 200’ of 1” type L and about $600 in fittings for my boiler.

1” is almost triple the cost of 3/4” on pipe and at least that on fittings. Not to mention most local home improvement stores do not stock anything outside of a 90 or tee.

I would consider 3/4” for cost.

Sweating pipe is simple. Most has been stated above. Be stingy with the flux. Light coating is all it takes. Too much and not only will it make a mess you will taste and smell it in the water for some time. I use a turbo torch setup. Way better than a MAP torch. Expensive initially but, in the long run it’s the way to go. I also invested in a Milwaukee M12 tubing cutter. Finding lead solder is almost impossible now so anything you get at Lowe’s will be lead free. For 1” you want spoils of the .125 as the smaller stuff will disappear too fast.

It’s easy with a little practice. I learned at 11 years old being the only one that could fit under grandmas bathroom in the crawl space.

 

[Medic21]

I’m sitting on my porch waiting on 200’ of 1” type L and about $600 in fittings for my boiler.

1” is almost triple the cost of 3/4” on pipe and at least that on fittings. Not to mention most local home improvement stores do not stock anything outside of a 90 or tee.

I would consider 3/4” for cost.

Sweating pipe is simple. Most has been stated above. Be stingy with the flux. Light coating is all it takes. Too much and not only will it make a mess you will taste and smell it in the water for some time. I use a turbo torch setup. Way better than a MAP torch. Expensive initially but, in the long run it’s the way to go. I also invested in a Milwaukee M12 tubing cutter. Finding lead solder is almost impossible now so anything you get at Lowe’s will be lead free. For 1” you want spoils of the .125 as the smaller stuff will disappear too fast.

It’s easy with a little practice. I learned at 11 years old being the only one that could fit under grandmas bathroom in the crawl space.

If you're close to northeast Indiana and want to learn...

 

[begreen]

Make sure you use lead free solder. I think you can still use regular lead solder for heating and non potable but lead free for potable. IMO, the lead solder was easier to work with but since you are new to it you wont know the difference. The problem you will have is the house may be old enough that your existing fittings may have lead in them so reusing the piping and fittings may mean getting a dose of lead.

Good point, I didn't know you could still buy lead solder except for some specialty cases. It is not sold at our local hardware and lumber stores. Nowadays it is usually tin-based with a little copper, bismuth, and silver.

And good tip on using a heat shield when soldering near a combustible. I always keep some scrap sheet metal around for that purpose. A spray bottle with water can be handy too.

 

[SpaceBus]

Thanks for all the tips! I only want to use 1" plumbing from the tank to the cook stove. I'm pretty sure the rest will be 1/2 or 3/4. Is there an advantage to 5/8 pex vs copper in either size up? I would be surprised if we use more than 100' of pipe total to redo the whole house. There are only four commections counting the toilet, which already has some pex on it.

Our plumber is 6 weeks or more out and a patch made by the previous owner (orange auto hose it seems) is now leaking. Very slowly, but leaking nonetheless. The water heater is on its last legs, if it has any left. Any suggestions on electric on demand units? Based on reviews, mfg specs, and research an 18-24kw unit would do the job.

 

[DickRussell]

One other tip on soldering. If for some reason you get a joint that leaks, forget about just reheating the joint and "forcing" more solder into it. It won't work, because some part of the joint wasn't totally clean, and solder wasn't drawn in there. Heating the joint the first time didn't work, so why would reheating for a second try work? Take the joint totally apart and start over with the cleaning.

 

[SpaceBus]

What to folks prefer with pex, expanded or crimped connection?

 

[bholler]

What to folks prefer with pex, expanded or crimped connection?

Expanded is better. But I use crimped and have never had any problems

 

[Medic21]

If I can do this you can. There are some tricks and tips but, pretty straight forward. I’m a Mechanic and Paramedic not a plumber.

 

[SpaceBus]

If I can do this you can. There are some tricks and tips but, pretty straight forward. I’m a Mechanic and Paramedic not a plumber.

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I have been peeping your thread. Perhaps your project has influenced mine a bit. My wife is fairly on board with DIY especially after watching several videos and seeing that, like repairing the framing of our house, this stuff isn't that difficult to do on a small scale. Our house only has like, 100 feet max of plumbing above the slab.