Pressure Tank Up and Running!

[jebatty]

Finally done. 1,000 gal LP tank in, plumbed, and ran a test up to 160F yesterday. Fully closed system now. This will be "cool." Top of tank temp was 160; bottom of tank was 130. Although don't need much heat anymore, I will be running a test to bring entire tank up to 170+/- top and bottom. Pix follows. Just a few notes that may be of interest.

Storage tank is 1000 gal LP tank, 19' feet long; partially wrapped with 6" fiberglass. Unwrapped parts are for radiant heating in my shop (too much heat if totally unwrapped). Tank has drain valve on bottom and isolation valves. Storage side expansion tank is Amtrol SX-160.

Plumbing between plate HX ( 5" x 12" x 30 plate, 1" fittings) and storage tank: draw cold water from bottom of tank, through filter, to circ, through HX, hot water through unit heater, to top of tank. Unit heater is controlled by a separate thermostat and only used when immediate or supplemental heat needed (use very little).

Flexible plumbing (red in photos) is 200F rated high temp hose. Will see how this holds up over time, but so easy to install due to flexibility and simply use hose barbs.

Filter may be removed later as soon as I know it's not catching any debris that could clog the HX. Replaceable 50 micron element, isolation valves.

Top of storage tank plumbing, right to left: 1) hot water in on right, with air vent, pressure gauge, and tank water supply valve for filling, topping off, etc. 2) ball valve to be opened to add boiler chemical to tank as needed, can use only when tank is de-pressurized. 3) 30 psi pressure relief valve. 4) well fitting for temperature gauge in background. Two flat fittings in center are LP tank fill gauge and LP tank pressure relief valve (200+ psi).

Circ pump control: aquastat on boiler return line set at 150; controls both boiler and tank circ pumps. Allows boiler to get to operating temp quickly before starting water flow. Turns off at 140. Also have boiler on a timer that shuts system down in event "cold" tank water supply is above 140, so that pumps do not run continuously when not needed.

Boiler: Termovar valve to insure hot water return to boiler at all times; Automag controlled overheat loop on ceiling of shop. The Automag is controlled by a separate aquastat on boiler supply line set at 210. If supply water reaches 210, shuts off power to Automag, thus opening overheat loop. Boiler also has a 210 overheat shutoff, so draft fan shuts down at same temperature. Has never happened. Also, if power failure, boiler shuts down and Automag opens overheat loop.

Ash box (at bottom of boiler): 9" x 10" x 12" -- ash box fills about two weeks to month, depending on use of boiler to meet heat needs. I burn dry pine almost exclusively.

Zones: none of the traditional kind. Installation is in my shop, and tank heats the shop acting as a large radiator; only use unit heater if immediate or supplemental heat needed.

Issues: needed boiler chemical to get PH to 8-9 range. Water supply is a little on the acid side, and until PH got up to 7+ I was getting rusty water. Water now runs clear from storage tank. Boiler chemical raises PH and scavenges oxygen.

 

[GARYL]

Looks GREAT Jim. Do you think it would work if I put the tank in my cellar and the boiler 170 feet away in an outbuilding? I would hate to lose any heat off the tank to an unheated outbuilding no matter how well insulated it was. I have been looking at various options for storage and haven't made up my mind yet. I guess I should of bought a 1000 gal propane tank I saw for sale for $500 but I passed on it because I was unsure as to how I was gonna do my storage. I am leaning toward an underground system because it doesn't eat up all my space.
Anyway, you did a great job and I am sure it will work well for you. The hoses are interesting, what are they normally used for?
Gary

 

[normandp]

Nice installation. If your red flexible hose is goodyear horizon it will last, i've been using this as underground pipe to feed my house with 180F water for years and it is stable. It has been used in greenhouse heating for a while.
Is there any danger that your filter may clog up? How do know? What is the chemical your using to stabilise your water?

 

[jebatty]

Looks GREAT Jim. Do you think it would work if I put the tank in my cellar and the boiler 170 feet away in an outbuilding? I would hate to lose any heat off the tank to an unheated outbuilding no matter how well insulated it was. I have been looking at various options for storage and haven't made up my mind yet. I guess I should of bought a 1000 gal propane tank I saw for sale for $500 but I passed on it because I was unsure as to how I was gonna do my storage. I am leaning toward an underground system because it doesn't eat up all my space.
Anyway, you did a great job and I am sure it will work well for you. The hoses are interesting, what are they normally used for?
Gary

Thanks. Hey, storage tank in a space that will be heated is a great idea - no wasted heat. The 170 feet should be no problem. Take a look at the threads on piping, insulating, etc. Lots of advice on this forum. $500 for 1000 gal is really good, I paid $850 delivered price, and I thought that was a good price. But these are big, and how to get one in a cellar could be a *itch. Mine weighed more than 2000 lbs. Underground LP tank poses some additional corrosion issues, galvanic action with the earth, etc., so investigate this before burying a tank. There are LP tanks made for underground installation. The hoses I think are used in restaurants/industry for hot water hose-down and cleaning purposes. About $50 for 50 feet, 3/4".

 

[jebatty]

Nice installation. If your red flexible hose is goodyear horizon it will last, i've been using this as underground pipe to feed my house with 180F water for years and it is stable. It has been used in greenhouse heating for a while.
Is there any danger that your filter may clog up? How do know? What is the chemical your using to stabilise your water?

Anchor/Swan is the brand I have. Filter clog is an issue, and I will change it every week or so until to see how much debris it is collecting. I suspect early on weekly changes might be necessary, but much less after awhile. I'll get back to you on the boiler chemical. I get it locally, and I think he supplies it principally for OWB open system. But the chemicals in the mix are what boiler chemical websites say are needed, so it should be OK. Cost is about $20 for 40 oz of dry chemical, supposedly good for 1000 gallons. With a closed system, oxygen should deplete rapidly to the extent not scavenged by chemical. Primary issue I think is PH - and I believe it needs to be alkaline PH 8-9. Acidic water tears steel apart quickly. Once water is treated should not need more chemical, unless water changed or much additional water is added. I will test PH periodically to make sure it stays where it should be.

 

[GARYL]

If your red flexible hose is goodyear horizon it will last, i've been using this as underground pipe to feed my house with 180F water for years and it is stable. It has been used in greenhouse heating for a while.

This is the first thread I have seen this hose mentioned. Could you tell me how you ran it underground and what was your temp drop over what distance? Thanks.
Gary

 

[jebatty]

My install is all indoors, temp loss not impt. Maybe others can help.

 

[normandp]

The hoses were wrapped in tapped bubble foil (white exterior and aluminum interior) and laid on a bed of sand about 5' deep. The trench was dug nearly 6 feet deep then 1 foot of sand was added. At the same time a teck cable to bring 200 amps, potable water hose and communication cable were passed. The barn is located about 160' from the house. Another foot of sand was added afterwards and the rest was the original soil.

Soil is drained nearby so water has never been a problem. Never had any snow melt above the line as they are quite deep.

I never noticed temperature drop because in the barn water is pumped towards the house at 180F and it is still at 180F at the house...if thermostats are not that precise maybe a loss of one or two degree I dont know. But I found that rubber hose dont seem to transmit that much heat so that might me the reason.

 

[jebatty]

For those interested in boiler chemical (and comments will be appreciated):

40 oz for about $20 - says enough to treat 1000 gallons of water. Composition shown below, but descriptions were gleaned from various web sources, including Wikipedia.

Sodium sulfite - used in water treatment as an oxygen scavenger agent, pH 9

Sodium carbonate (soda ash) - a relatively strong base in various settings; used as a pH regulator to maintain stable alkaline conditions; common additive to neutralize acid effects and raise pH

Trisodium phosphate - a highly water-soluble ionic salt; dissolved in water has an alkaline pH; used as an acidity regulator (buffering agent).

Sodium silica - soluble in water, producing an alkaline solution; binds to heavier molecules and precipitates them out of the water.

BI-CHEM-CO
30189 - 690th Ave
Roosevelt, MN 56673
218-442-6391

See also (broken link removed to http://www.p2pays.org/ref/32/31321.pdf)

 

[normandp]

$20 to treat 1,000 gallons is really a good price, there is "Treatment Solution 101™" from this site (broken link removed) which is $25 to treat 200 gallons. I'm about to install a 2,000 gallons storage tank so i'd rather pay $40 than $250. if it is as good!

 

[mouchey]

Finally done. 1,000 gal LP tank in, plumbed, and ran a test up to 160F yesterday. Fully closed system now. This will be "cool." Top of tank temp was 160; bottom of tank was 130. Although don't need much heat anymore, I will be running a test to bring entire tank up to 170+/- top and bottom. Pix follows. Just a few notes that may be of interest.

Storage tank is 1000 gal LP tank, 19' feet long; partially wrapped with 6" fiberglass. Unwrapped parts are for radiant heating in my shop (too much heat if totally unwrapped). Tank has drain valve on bottom and isolation valves. Storage side expansion tank is Amtrol SX-160.

Plumbing between plate HX ( 5" x 12" x 30 plate, 1" fittings) and storage tank: draw cold water from bottom of tank, through filter, to circ, through HX, hot water through unit heater, to top of tank. Unit heater is controlled by a separate thermostat and only used when immediate or supplemental heat needed (use very little).

Flexible plumbing (red in photos) is 200F rated high temp hose. Will see how this holds up over time, but so easy to install due to flexibility and simply use hose barbs.

Filter may be removed later as soon as I know it's not catching any debris that could clog the HX. Replaceable 50 micron element, isolation valves.

Top of storage tank plumbing, right to left: 1) hot water in on right, with air vent, pressure gauge, and tank water supply valve for filling, topping off, etc. 2) ball valve to be opened to add boiler chemical to tank as needed, can use only when tank is de-pressurized. 3) 30 psi pressure relief valve. 4) well fitting for temperature gauge in background. Two flat fittings in center are LP tank fill gauge and LP tank pressure relief valve (200+ psi).

Circ pump control: aquastat on boiler return line set at 150; controls both boiler and tank circ pumps. Allows boiler to get to operating temp quickly before starting water flow. Turns off at 140. Also have boiler on a timer that shuts system down in event "cold" tank water supply is above 140, so that pumps do not run continuously when not needed.

Boiler: Termovar valve to insure hot water return to boiler at all times; Automag controlled overheat loop on ceiling of shop. The Automag is controlled by a separate aquastat on boiler supply line set at 210. If supply water reaches 210, shuts off power to Automag, thus opening overheat loop. Boiler also has a 210 overheat shutoff, so draft fan shuts down at same temperature. Has never happened. Also, if power failure, boiler shuts down and Automag opens overheat loop.

Ash box (at bottom of boiler): 9" x 10" x 12" -- ash box fills about two weeks to month, depending on use of boiler to meet heat needs. I burn dry pine almost exclusively.

Zones: none of the traditional kind. Installation is in my shop, and tank heats the shop acting as a large radiator; only use unit heater if immediate or supplemental heat needed.

Issues: needed boiler chemical to get PH to 8-9 range. Water supply is a little on the acid side, and until PH got up to 7+ I was getting rusty water. Water now runs clear from storage tank. Boiler chemical raises PH and scavenges oxygen.

Hi want to know what is that filter you have off your tank? Where did you get it? I am concerned about running my hot water out of these tanks as I am using an old propane tank too. Expecially with kids and showers and dishes. What are your thoughts.
Thanks, MJ

 

[MrEd]

I am concerned about running my hot water out of these tanks as I am using an old propane tank too. Expecially with kids and showers and dishes.

WARNING WARNING: You don't use the water out of the propane tanks for domestic hot water - just like the water that passes thru you baseboards never comes out your faucet.

You need to figure out a strategy for using the *heat* out of the tank, to bring your domestic water upto temperature - i.e. an indirect fired water tank, heat exchanger, etc....DON'T, DON'T try and drink or even shower in the water that comes out of the tank.

 

[mouchey]

I am concerned about running my hot water out of these tanks as I am using an old propane tank too. Expecially with kids and showers and dishes.

WARNING WARNING: You don't use the water out of the propane tanks for domestic hot water - just like the water that passes thru you baseboards never comes out your faucet.

You need to figure out a strategy for using the *heat* out of the tank, to bring your domestic water upto temperature - i.e. an indirect fired water tank, heat exchanger, etc....DON'T, DON'T try and drink or even shower in the water that comes out of the tank.

Thank you for your response I do have an indirect fired water heater so... I think my issue is ignorance ,maybe now I get it let me know if I am right. The water from the propane tank goes through coils in my indirect hot water tank heating the water in it not filling the tank with the water therefore the propane tank water never actually comes in contact as my hot water supply? If this is so then I should be all set and not be worried? Thank you again. MJ

 

[MrEd]

Yes, that is correct. Think of the water in the propane tank as a big-fat piece of baseboard that stores heat. The water never mixes with the domestic water. You should be all set if you use the water from the propane tank to heat the water in the indirect tank as you describe.

 

[in hot water]

nice work, clean layout!

One comment about your hose. or your system hose :0 Is it is a high temperature MPH (multi purpose hose) like Dayco of any other brand of radiator hose?

If so it may not, probably doesn't, have an oxygen barrier. As odd as it may sound, it will allow O2 through the tube wall and continually rust and corrode the ferrous components.

The early Heatway Entran tube was non barrier and caused 100's of thousands of dollars of damage. It would corrode and sludge systems in a few years time, especially high temperature systems as the O2 ingress is directly related to operating temperatures. A class action settlement is still ongoing, related to that product.

The early Solaroll/ Radiantroll EPDM tubing had the same issues, as did the early PB (polybutylene) radiant and hydronic tube. Expansion tanks or thin metal components often leaked within the first year.

A couple thoughts, consider the Watts Radiant Onix tube, available up to 1". It has aluminum and EVOH O2 layers built in.

Or isolate the non barrier tube with a HX.

Or an ongoing chemical treatment.

A main ingrediant in those boiler treatments mentioned is the O2 scavanger package. It does get used up, or consumed as it does it's job. Depending on how much O2 enters your system you may want to check that monthly, at least for the first year.

TSP is merely a strong soap. It often used for cleaning out new boiler systems, especially steam that may have a lot of oils inside from assembly and threading. It MUST be flushed out, however or it too will start to eat away. It leaves the system too alkaline. Typically when it is flushed out it leaves the system leaning to the alkline side, which the steam guys like

The EPA cracked down on TSP years ago due to phosphate discharge. Most store purchased TSP is now phosphate free! A much lower cleaning strength. Some paint supply stores still have a stock of the "good old stufff' it would make your hands burn and turn red if not properly handled.

Ph will be the number to watch, and it will vary according to the product you use. Most boiler chemicals including glycols keep the system in the 8- 10.5 range. The product label will guide you.

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