Pressurized tank install question...

[Gooserider]

In my long standing planning on how to do a system once I figure out how to pay for it, I've been more or less planning on doing a site built non-pressurized storage system because there is no way I could get any reasonably sized pressure tanks into our utility room area... Since the utility room has basement foundation walls on three sides, my thought was to build a well reinforced masonry wall about 4' in front of the existing back wall and line it with insulation and EPDM to make about a 1,000 gallon or so tank... Haven't seen anything to suggest that this wouldn't work, but I would like pressurized a bit better if I could pull it off...

The floor plan is the 1st floor, but the basement pretty much mirrors it - the utility room is under the room in the bottom right corner It's about 10'4"' wide between the concrete foundation walls - According to (broken link removed to http://www.blttanks.com/salvage%20tanks/salvage%20tanks.htm) there are 500g tanks that are 10' long x 36" diameter, which would (barely) fit in the space. I've heard there might be larger diameter tanks that are a little shorter, but not sure... It would be a nice fit to put in a pair of stacked 500's and even take a bit less space than my non-pressure idea...

The question is how to get them INTO that space... In doing a "think outside the box" moment, I had the idea that since the foundation is only about 4' into the ground, and I have 4' out of the ground - would it be feasible to knock out the upper part of the foundation wall, and slide the tanks in like loading torpedoes... The wall could then be built back up, presumably with some sort of wood framing and insulation. This is a picture of that corner of the house, (and yes that little porch is rotten and falling down - the door is never used, I'd love to replace it with wall) The tank opening I'd need would basically be where the rotten porch is, between the cellar window and the corner... If it matters, the wall is an end wall, as you can see in the larger picture.

Is this something that would work, or is there a reason why it would be a very bad idea????

Gooserider

 

[sdrobertson]

I like the idea Goose. You already have a window so taking out a portion of the wall will be easy. I'm thinking you could use pallet raking like stee6043 did to set them up and you could use these to move the first tank in and then lower it just the opposite that he did to lift his. Another way would be to excavate the dirt down say 6 feet and remove a few more blocks, move the first tank in, replace a few blocks to backfill in some dirt, and slide in the second. Definitively doable and it would solve your state codes problems.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Very do-able Goose. You will need to support the load above with temporary post & beam structure prior to taking out the foundation wall. If the hole you intend to make in the foundation is on the Gable end then little or no bracing will be needed. Check with local authorities about eliminating the door as they may view the door (even if you don't use it) as a fire exit. Happy renovating

 

[airlina]

Goose to get my 1500 lb. Econoburn boiler into my basement , I found a heavy equipment mechanic with a extendable crane on the back of his truck (extended to 14 ') . He was able to back up to my basement door, and after removing my basement stairs we craned the boiler thru the door on to a pallet mover to get it in place. Just to give you some ideas on moving the tanks. Good luck Bruce

 

[ewdudley]

I'm confused, I thought you wanted the tanks inside the box.

No extraordinary rigging challenges here. Just temporarily support whatever the wall is supporting and go for it. Just be sure the hole is plenty big, it's just a miserable experience to get into one of these deals wishing the hole was just ever so little bigger.

As to shorter tanks, there's such a thing as a 'fat boy' 350 gallon tank, which is the same diameter as the 500 but 33 or so inches shorter. Slip two of these in, and maybe stand them on end.

You might not need the traditional 1000 gallons if you get your house tightened up to begin with, at least that's what I'm finding out after I built my mechanical room on the highest infiltration and heat-loss side of the house. I've scaled my tank needs by enough to gain floor space for some much needed storage.

--ewd

You have: 150 gallon / (18.25^2 * pi * in2)
You want: inch
    * 33.115219
    / 0.030197596
You have: (120 - 33) inch
You want: feet
    * 7.25
    / 0.13793103

 

[jebatty]

A 4' wide temporary opening to slide the torpedoes in, even if in a supporting wall, may need no temporary support. I did nearly the same in a basement supporting center wall in our house to make a wide doorway (3 blocks wide). But if you decide support is needed, put a header across the opening with the ends resting on 2 x's to remaining foundation block or the footing, if you pull out the block all the way to the footing.

 

[DaveBP]

Almost every time I've read on this forum someone say they can't get a propane tank down their basement stairs I wonder if they couldn't get a backhoe to dig a grave big enough to bury the tank adjacent to the foundation. Then rent one of those carbide chainsaws with the garden hose attachment. Or hire a guy to do it. With a door open to the world outside, the same backhoe can lower the tank down in. Put it on some greased planks and the same backhoe can push the tank in most of the way.

If you hired the job out to someone who had the equipment and knew what they were doing it would be done in a day with time out for lunch. It would take me a week but I could get it done. Your photo makes it look like a simple job, Goose. And I know you want pressurized storage.

 

[WoodNotOil]

With an opening only a little bigger than the tanks and then a 4' drop how do you plan to lower the tank to the floor? Is it expensive to cut a poured concrete foundation? I have no doubt those issue could be resolved and this is likely doable.

Another option would be to lower several of those smaller propane tanks that are tall instead of long down the hatchway and then plumb them inseries to get the total storage water volume you want. More tanks, but no foundation cutting... just an idea. Good luck!

 

[stee6043]

I like the idea. I'd be moderately concerned about removing 4' of concrete but some folks above suggest it's no big deal. So go for it. My tanks were 37" wide. I remember this only because my sliding door to my walk-out basement was 35" wide. I hadn't planned on removing it until the day I received the tanks. ha.

The racking I used for my setup would work great for receiving your tanks in the basement and lowering them down. The beams can be placed anywhere on 2" increments. Find your local Steel King (or Interlake, Unarco, Frazier, etc) dealer and they can set you up with rack built to your dimensions. My rack was 7' tall, 10' wide, 4' deep. Works like a charm...

 

[stee6043]

On second thought...some creativity may be required here. The uprights to the racking I used contain cross-bracing. This would make it impossible to "slide" the tanks in from the end. You could still use the rack to support the leading edge of the tank as you push it in but you would need to use a floor jack or similar to support the trailing edge as it enters the basement.

I used two floor jacks and some 6x6 lumber to support my tank while I unwound my ratcheting straps several times during the big lift. Worked well...even if not entirely safe.

 

[dogwood]

Gooserider,

The fact that you are using the end wall is fortunate in that it is most likely not bearing the load of the house. Check and be sure floor joists are not resting on it so you know what you are dealing with. There is still a fair amount of weight on an end wall so sure be to brace the opening with headers as suggested above so you dont get any cracked walls on the floors above or other more serious issues. Removing the block will be a pain, as will replacing it. Figure out exactly how to do this without damaging the adjacent blocks, and the structure above that they support. It can be done. Have you ever laid any block before? Get in a little practice before you re-lay and reset the blocks you take out. Good luck.

Mike

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for the responses... One point I should make that it looks like many folks were not seeing, though I don't think it changes a lot, is that the wall is NOT blocks - it is poured concrete, probably with some level of rebar in it, though I don't know how much... No sign of blocks anywhere around the foundation, inside or out, and some visible seams from form joints and such...

The problem getting into the basement is mostly the tanks, I have a pre-cast bulkhead stair and 32" door that is a couple doorways away from where the boiler would go (You can see the bulkhead in one of the pix I posted in the OP) There are two interior doors that I would have to get through to get the boiler into the utility room - one 28", the other 32" Looking at the specs all of my likely boiler choices are in the 28-30" wide range, so it should be possible to ramp one down the bulkhead stair and then roll it into place w/ some pipes - not easy, but no big deal... Probably need to take out the frame on the 28" door, again not a big deal... OTOH the tanks wouldn't fit through the bulkhead opening, at least not without taking out that door (The opening in the concrete foundation is 38" :coolhmm: ) and a fair bit of the walls with the two doors in them, and maybe some of the existing HVAC return ducting... I THINK that might be harder, though now that I look at it some more....:coolhmm:

Gooserider

 

[Fred61]

I think you had a great idea. It pays to sleep on a project for a while to gather the best Ideas. I would not be concerned at all about cutting a 4' hole in the foundation. I'd be more concerned with patching it up later. Take a look at the rim joist and first joist. If there are no splices in either of them and there is no wall on the main level that is perpendicular to the outside wall you're good to go. I've cut larger holes in walls with no problem. Think about it, what's it holding up? If you have sheetrock on the inside and plywood sheathing on the outside (can't tell if it's siding or T-111) that makes one hell of an 8 foot high I-beam. And it's holding up maybe four 2x4s. Whether you have tuusses or rafters shouldn't make any difference.

You could probably replace the wall with an access door just in case you get other bright ideas. Just be careful about backfilling. If you have soil that holds alot of moisture it tends to heave about a foot away from the foundation causing any water (rain, snow melt to flow toward the foundation and block the flow away from the foundation. Just be sure to have a good slope away from the house. In the photo, it appears that you do. Build yourself a drain away from the wall out of crushed stone.

The guys that cut concrete around here charge by the foot.

 

[leaddog]

I think what you are asking is very doable. that said another idea is to do as I did, I put my tanks next to the wall on the outside. It was on the back side of my house, between windows, and I built a 5ftx15ftx12ft add on and placed 4-500gal tanks on end. Gave me room for insulation (LOTS) and also went against a wall that wasn't insulated that great. If I ever need to get to a tank it will be easier than if it was inside. If you are talking 2-500gal tanks it looks like you could stack them posibly under the windows or put them side by side and build a deck over them. I like the deck idea as then you are using the space and they would still be accessable. Make the sides from 2x6 and foam them and so they can be removed. fill the inside with blown cellulose and you have a very well insulated tanks that are easy to get at. To bad your so far away as I've got lots of tanks
leaddog

 

[leaddog]

There are some 500gal tanks out there that are about 8ft long and 44in wide but they are hard to come by . I have one I think maybe two but most tanks are 37x10ft.
leaddog

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

I would cut the wall 6" up from the ground & slide em in(like torpedos). The reason for the 6" is so you don't have a splice at the ground. You can brick it in or if making a door you could weld up a heavy frame & bolt this to the perimeter of the opening(including the top). Then you could make a nice looking wood door & not need to worry about the structure of the door. I personally would not brick it in. Firewood could be thrown through there etc. Doors through to the basement are very usefull, Randy

 

[RobC]

How about working this another way ? It sounds like you can get the stove to where you want it with some effort. How about fire wood ? It's kinda nice to have a few days supply near the stove, but it sounds like the existing bulkhead is on the opposite end of basement. You have some basement windows. Could you modify a window to toss wood in near the stove, wood chute ? if the answer is NO... then.... may be entertain the idea of cutting in another bulkhead. Slide the tanks in, then put a Bilco steel door on top but instead of stairs going to the basement just do a block wall, 2 sides and an end, and float a floor and now you have a week or two worth of wood right next to stove. Or, if you CAN use the basement window for a wood chute maybe think of 1 X 1000G tank outside. Spray with closed cell foam and box it in to keep the elements off. Where you already have 3 or 4 feet of foundation exposed you could drop it in the ground a couple of feet and not really be noticeable.
As far as contracting out the wall cutting. The guys we've used have a minimum of $400 and then some more may be even another $200, plus, its a mess with the water and run off carrying the cement dust. Depending on how deep you want to cut you may have to do some digging to allow them to get their track set up on your wall to run the saw on. Then you have the cut out piece to get rid of.
I guess my thoughts were more along the lines if you to go to the effort to cut out your foundation could you achieve a second benefit from the cut to help justify the effort. It is nice to have the tanks inside but with the closed cell foam your not getting much heat loss and your pipe runs would be really short. Or just bury the whole tank and leave / build an inspection cap to get at the fittings on the top of the tank.
Rob,

 

[WoodNotOil]

I'm with leaddog on suggesting putting the tank outside in an enclosure against the house and running the pipes through that window into your boiler room.

Another option is to put an attached shed against the house and put the boiler and storage right in there. You could use that door to get into it from the house and then you won't have to throw wood in the basement at all. No expense of burying lines and the mess it out of the house. By the time you insulate your tank in the shed most if the shed would be insulated. You could even just add on in such a way that it looks like part of the house. It could just be a natural extension of the roof line that is less steep above the door. Just a thought...

 

[leaddog]

I think what you are asking is very doable. that said another idea is to do as I did, I put my tanks next to the wall on the outside. It was on the back side of my house, between windows, and I built a 5ftx15ftx12ft add on and placed 4-500gal tanks on end. Gave me room for insulation (LOTS) and also went against a wall that wasn't insulated that great. If I ever need to get to a tank it will be easier than if it was inside. If you are talking 2-500gal tanks it looks like you could stack them posibly under the windows or put them side by side and build a deck over them. I like the deck idea as then you are using the space and they would still be accessable. Make the sides from 2x6 and foam them and so they can be removed. fill the inside with blown cellulose and you have a very well insulated tanks that are easy to get at. To bad your so far away as I've got lots of tanks
leaddog

just to expand on the deck idea, I don't know where the door leads to but with a nice deck you could put a hot tub setting over the tanks and any heat lose would help heat the hot tub. a privacy fence, hot tub, and a couple of beers with your special gal and setting over 1000gals of hot water could make it all worth it. You could even put in a snow melt system so the deck would be nice and warm on those cold Jan nites. Heck you could have a boiler room party. I'm sure we would help with the beers
I love my tub but it is cold getting into it. Maybe I should look into warming my deck
leaddog

 

[dogwood]

Gooserider, sorry I didn't notice your walls were poured rather than masonry block. That makes your project a more difficult undertaking. My thought is that the location you are thinking of cutting through is too close to the corner of the foundation, and cutting a hole there would undermine the structural integrity of both walls on that corner. The foundation corners should have horizontal L shaped pieces of rebar reinforcing each corner. When you cut through that rebar the foundation structure would be weakened. And cutting through concrete is not really a do-it-yourself project unless you have some experience doing so.

The option of going through the bulkhead opening looks a lot more feasible. There already is an opening. You would primarily be removing wood and sheetrock or even the entire bulkhead door structure it sounds like. This would be a lot easier to do without causing structural damage, and more of a do-it-yourself project to replace what you tear out. If the inside gets messed up, or you have to remove some of the concrete next to the door frame, or even the whole side wall to the bulkhead steps, no real harm done to your house. If you do decide to cut the concrete, find someone reliable to tell you how to put the foundation back together in a structurally sound manner, considering the rebar being cut. That part would be harder to do correctly than the concrete removal. I wouldn't venture a guess how that might be done.

Another thing to consider if you go through the bulkhead would be if the top of the tank would hit the top of the opening as you angle it in. The further you get it in the more height you will need in the opening.

I built my entire 3000 square ft. Cape Cod style home as a do-it-yourself project, so am no stranger to getting in over my head, further evidenced by taking on a wood gassifier install. If you aren't sure if you'd be undermining your homes foundation or not, don't get in over yours. Get the opinion of a knowledgeable person, without an economic interest in getting the work for himself, to tell you if you're on the right track. That's why I write you all. I don't know a thing about boiler installs. Do know how to build though. Good luck with your project.

Mike

 

[huffdawg]

I have cut a hole in my foundation wall a few feet away from a corner on wall with point loads , in my place that has been inspected by an engineer. On Gooses house he wants to put it on the Gable end should be no point loads there. There should be a sill plate and either a single or double box joice above the top of the cement wall .The sill plate should be bolted down with anchors every 2 feet or so.
I would bet money that the box joice would not even sag over a span of 3 to 4 feet on the gable end. To cut that out chunk of cement out would only take about one hour with a diamond toothed chain saw.

The chain would cost about $275.00 and the rental of the saw about $50.00 the hardest part would be getting the chunk of cement out of the hole. Just my humble opinion.

Huff

 

[SolarAndWood]

What is on the inside of the door? Would it be easier to go in horizontally to the first floor, cut a hole in the floor instead of the foundation and then drop the tanks down like a casket?

 

[RobC]

Rebar, I don't believe is required or ever was required in MA for residential. On new construction foundation excavating in "high rent" neighborhoods over the last 4 or 5 years have not seen it installed. On the residential demolition projects I've been involved with we never see it during removal. We might see a piece or two but never run around the perimeter.
With that said when I pour foundations for self, or friends, I will put one pair in footing and 2 more horizontal pairs in the walls. Cement walls can crack and if the bar is in the wall, the crack won't continue to open up. Rebar is cheap insurance.
Here's my experience with old concrete. It's really hard. The older it is the harder it gets ( don't go there ). Your foundation with or with out rebar isn't going anywhere. With your house on top or with out.
Nor do I believe your house will go anywhere like huffdawg just pointed out. It is really incredible the effort it takes to knock down a house with a good sized excavator.
If you do decide to cut your foundation yourself....I would consider 1) checking for rebar with a metal detector first. You will get some readings from the form ties but those should be obvious. 2) get a support in basement so you prevent damage to upstairs board walls. It won't take much movement to get a crack. 3) If you decide to cut your own wall find out if the blade you a going to use will go through nails, rebar and the like just in case. 4) Get a couple of prices to have it cut by pros. ( RE: # 4 It kills me to say that on a DIY forum )
I would take a closer look at getting them down your existing bulkhead.... if at all possible too....
Rob

 

[Outlaw]

I dropped a 500 gallon propane tank in through my bulkhead. The tank is 8 foot long by about 46 inches diameter. I used a 4X4 Farm tractor (International, cause John Deere SUCKS) with a bucket loader. We then used dollies to roll it to where it now sits waiting for to get off my a$$ and have it plumbed into the Atmos

The tank weighs about 900 pounds, just picked it with a chain and guided it in, with no stairs it went smooth.
I would think it would be far easier to open up the space of the doors in the celler than to knock a hole in the exterior concrete wall of the house. And yes I have done both.

 

[Chris Hoskin]

Hi Goose,

With all the effort and cost involved in getting tanks into the basement, you may want to consider an attached or detached boiler room/woodshed. Custom built to fit your boiler, 1000 gallons of pressurized storage and 6 cord of wood - nice! Project budget creep, I know...

Just as a point of reference, our 220 gallon tanks are 30" x 77" so would fit down your bulkhead. A typical installation would have three of them standing upright and mated together in parallel. Our 400 gallon tanks are 36" x 93" and a typical installation would be two tanks standing upright (watch ceiling height!) also in parallel.

Chris