Princess insert install quote

[twd000]

Got a quote today from a local stove shop. Guy seemed pretty knowledgeable. He is selling his floor-model Blaze Kings at 25% discount. I was intent on getting a free-standing stove for efficiency reasons, but he has mostly talked me out of it. Understanding how much modification would be required to my floor and masonry chimney gave me pause. The insert looks to be a pretty straightforward install, with only a steel plate and ember rug required 18" in front of the glass door. I upgraded to the insulated liner. He doesn't do block-off plates, but instead stuffs refractory insulation at the top of the chimney. Says his installed can do a better job up there since he can see to ensure he is filling all the gaps between the flue tiles and liner. As long as the airflow is blocked, I suppose it doesn't matter whether the blockage is at the bottom or top of the chimney. Anything else I should think to ask about before pulling the trigger on this? Think this will be able to heat my two-story house ? (2500 sq ft). Any guesses about the burn times I should expect on hardwoods on a 30-degree day? I've seen everything from 8 hours to 27 hours. 3 reloads a day would be fine with me, but 2 would be even better.

 

[begreen]

Stuffing the chimney top with roxul insulation can help keep the top portion warmer, but it does not stop heat loss from the insert to the exterior masonry. An insulated block-off plate at the damper level will do that. The difference is notable. Most installers will do this work as long as they are paid to. In lieu of their installing you might ask if you could install the block off plate before they put in the insert.

 

[weatherguy]

Get a piece of sheet metal from home Depot and do the block off plate yourself. The insert is smaller than the free stander and doesn't get as long burn times, depending on your draft you should still get 12+ hours.

 

[twd000]

Stuffing the chimney top with roxul insulation can help keep the top portion warmer, but it does not stop heat loss from the insert to the exterior masonry. An insulated block-off plate at the damper level will do that. The difference is notable. Most installers will do this work as long as they are paid to. In lieu of their installing you might ask if you could install the block off plate before they put in the insert.

So the main problem is losing the heat from the top deck of the insert into the masonry? Not the airflow in the gap? He said it was very difficult for his guys to insure a good seal with the blind installation at the damper plate, compared to sealing at the top of the liner where they can see their work. Also my chimney is interior to the house, so any heat going into the masonry stays within the house envelope.

 

[twd000]

Get a piece of sheet metal from home Depot and do the block off plate yourself. The insert is smaller than the free stander and doesn't get as long burn times, depending on your draft you should still get 12+ hours.

He was very anti block off plate, and I'm not sure he would complete the install with it in place. If I decide to do it later, how hard would it be for me to pull the insert after one season if I'm not happy, and install a block off plate at that time?

So is the main difference in burn time due to the slight smaller firebox, or less efficient heating (due to losing heat into the masonry chimney)?

 

[Niko]

Domt let any body talk you out of what you want period. Get the freestanding stove! Im not saying anything bad about the insert. I would only get a insert if i had no other options. You will be a lot happier with the stove then the insert in my opinion.

 

[bholler]

So the main problem is losing the heat from the top deck of the insert into the masonry? Not the airflow in the gap?

The problem is that there will be warm air going up into the masonry structure it will then get cooled off by the masonry and drop back down. You will have a constant convective current flowing robbing heat from the room.

He said it was very difficult for his guys to insure a good seal with the blind installation at the damper plate, compared to sealing at the top of the liner where they can see their work. Also my chimney is interior to the house, so any heat going into the masonry stays within the house envelope.

Well you install the block off plate before you put the inset into place so there is no blind work involved at all. but he is partially correct with an interior chimney it is not quite as important to have one. But there are still very clear benefits.

He was very anti block off plate, and I'm not sure he would complete the install with it in place. If I decide to do it later, how hard would it be for me to pull the insert after one season if I'm not happy, and install a block off plate at that time?

He just doesn't want to do it they are kind of a pain but they should be done on every fireplace install. Tell him you want one done plain and simple and he can do one or you will get someone who will.

 

[bholler]

Domt let smy ody talk you out of what you want period. Get the freestanding stove!

I don't know that the guy talked him out of it as much as pointed out to him the cost difference. And inserts if installed correctly can work just fine I really don't see why they get such a bad rep on this site. Possibly because very few get block off plates and insulation installed behind them.

 

[jetsam]

I paid stove shop prices to have a my stove shop install my princess insert, and I wound up pulling every bit of it out and doing it again. (I did part of it the first time around too, because they announced after they got there to do the install that I needed to run an outlet into the fireplace myself if I wanted the fan to work. Luckily I had an extra handybox and some MC in the garage.)

I didn't HAVE to pull the liner, but I wanted it insulated after the first year. I didn't HAVE to pull the insert, but I wanted a block off plate and an insulated fireplace after the first year.

Sounds like you're on the same path.

If I had it to do over again.... Well, I'd probably still be begging various people at BK to sell me a stove directly, because I am never dealing with a dealer again. If they want to claim to somehow add value to the process of me buying a stove, they need to at least learn modern woodburning basics.

I don't know what their markup on the stove was, but I am sure I pissed $1000-$2000 down the rathole between the labor (that I had to do over myself) and their profits on the stove and liner.

I guess they did deliver the stove, but for $1000-$2000, I can definitely afford to have an LTL truck go get it from the factory for me....

 

[bholler]

Well, I'd probably still be begging various people at BK to sell me a stove directly, because I am never dealing with a dealer again.

Well it is not fair at all to lump all dealers in with the one you worked with. There are lots of dealers that are very good and do top notch installs or have good sweeps do the installs for them. But yes there are also ones who just want to get the sale and get it installed as quickly as possible. The olnly way to know the difference is to do your research. Which the op has. And atleast his installer is insulating the liner.

 

[begreen]

So the main problem is losing the heat from the top deck of the insert into the masonry? Not the airflow in the gap? He said it was very difficult for his guys to insure a good seal with the blind installation at the damper plate, compared to sealing at the top of the liner where they can see their work. Also my chimney is interior to the house, so any heat going into the masonry stays within the house envelope.

OK, this is less of an issue with an interior chimney. The difference and heat gain is much more noticeable with an exterior wall fireplace.

 

[twd000]

The problem is that there will be warm air going up into the masonry structure it will then get cooled off by the masonry and drop back down. You will have a constant convective current flowing robbing heat from the room.

Trying to understand the magnitude of this effect. What is the R-value of this insulated liner? https://www.copperfield.com/Homesaver-UltraPro-Pre-Insulated#

I just checked my chimney inspection report. My flue tiles are 13"x13", is the 6" liner the outer diameter? so ~3" gap between the liner and flue tiles?

 

[patrickoneal]

A couple of things about the quotation you got...

I don't know how the quality compares, but my forever flex preinsulated 6" x 25' liner was $650, including the top plate, rain cap, and appliance adapter. Your quote is quite a bit higher if the components are of similar quality.

They're charging you for a fan kit. As far as I know, you can't get the Princess insert without a fan. That doesn't seem right. They should at least take that off.

I recently installed my own princess insert, and $600 doesn't seem out of line for the install, but I think they're making a lot more on markup.

My Princess insert was $2,195, with the door and standard surround, and the blower(again, non-optional). The place I bought it seemed to do wood stoves as a side line, but apparently doesn't sell many. Mine was made in 2011, so they were more than willing to cut a deal.

As for the block off plate, I installed mine after the fact, I did not remove the stove to do it. I just cut a 'U' in the back of the plate, slipped it in, screwed it to the masonry, then made a filler plate to cover the gap at the back. There are other approaches to make them in two pieces if you search around here.

As for the insulation, I was planning to just insulate at the bottom, but the top of the liner was far from centered in the clay tile. Stuffing roxul around it up top centered it up nicely. I stuffed roxul at the bottom in the smoke shelf as well, so mine is insulated at both ends.

 

[patrickoneal]

And I just noticed that I missed the big discount at the end. That makes it quite a bit more fair. Still don't know about the charge for the blower.

 

[twd000]

Thanks Patrick. Are you happy with your insert? Does it heat your whole house now?

I have also seen folks insulating the back walls of their fireplace with noncombustible boards or blankets to retain heat. Is that something I should consider?

 

[patrickoneal]

Thanks Patrick. Are you happy with your insert? Does it heat your whole house now?

I have also seen folks insulating the back walls of their fireplace with noncombustible boards or blankets to retain heat. Is that something I should consider?

I only had a week or so of "cold" weather after I completed the installation. The boiler didn't start up for the downstairs zone of my house at all for that week, burning the stove on low with the blower on. At night it probably got down to 35. My insert is at one end of the house, and my downstairs bedroom is at the other end, with the thermostat right outside the door. The thermostat registered 69-72 degrees, which is fine for me because 68 is comfortable to me in the winter. The upstairs boiler zone did run some, but my roommate keeps it set at 71 or 72.

As for insulating the firebox, I don't know how much benefit it would yield. The back of my fireplace/chimney is inside a detached garage. I used to run a set of smelly vent-free gas logs in the fireplace. They heated the fireplace enough to make the paint peel on the bricks on the back side out in the garage. With the Princess running, the masonry in the garage doesn't really get warm, so I don't think it's losing much heat through the back wall.

As for being happy with it: Yes I am. My supposedly seasoned wood isn't exactly dry, but it does burn halfway decent. I had some trouble initially getting all night burns, but setting it to low and really stuffing the firebox full works. Turning off the blower before bed seems to help a lot too(though I would still have coals with the blower on low) and the house really doesn't cool down that much. On colder days next winter, I could see loading the stove more than twice a day and running higher settings, but perhaps not after my wood seasons more over the summer.

 

[patrickoneal]

Trying to understand the magnitude of this effect. What is the R-value of this insulated liner? https://www.copperfield.com/Homesaver-UltraPro-Pre-Insulated#

I just checked my chimney inspection report. My flue tiles are 13"x13", is the 6" liner the outer diameter? so ~3" gap between the liner and flue tiles?

View attachment 195345 View attachment 195346 View attachment 195347 View attachment 195348 View attachment 195349

That's a preinuslated liner. The inner stainless liner is 6", then you have a layer of insulation, and then another layer of stainless steel. I think the overall OD of my preinsulated 6" forever flex liner is 8".

 

[weatherguy]

That's a good price for the whole shebang, or the whole shebang minus a block off plate. I installed my princess in an interior fireplace and originally didn't have a black off plate. After a couple of years I installed one and I gained a few degrees in the family room. I was stretching the limits on what it's capable of heating so a few degrees helped.
I made the block off plate in two pieces without removing the stove so you can always do it later but it'd be much easier to do it now.

 

[twd000]

OK, I have the installers scheduled to come out on March 10th to install the Princess insert and insulated liner. Got the whole package for $4100. Rather than argue with the store owner about the block-off plate, I'm going to pre-fabricate it and hand it to the install crew, and hope they are willing to tie it in as part of the installation while they're there. If they say "no" I guess I will cut the plate in half and install it above the stove after they leave.

 

[patrickoneal]

OK, I have the installers scheduled to come out on March 10th to install the Princess insert and insulated liner. Got the whole package for $4100. Rather than argue with the store owner about the block-off plate, I'm going to pre-fabricate it and hand it to the install crew, and hope they are willing to tie it in as part of the installation while they're there. If they say "no" I guess I will cut the plate in half and install it above the stove after they leave.

Did they take off the charge for the fan kit?

 

[twd000]

Did they take off the charge for the fan kit?

The final invoice I paid doesn't list the fan kit.

$2400 for the stove insert
$938 for the insulated liner
$600 for the delivery and installation
$250 for a custom steel plate to cover the extra-wide fireplace opening

 

[twd000]

Got the insert installed today.

I had pre-fabricated a block off plate and they installed it without questioning. They also blocked the gap between the liner and flue at the top. So this is as good as it's gonna get!

I plan to buy a fiberglass ember rug and set it on top of a steel plate on top of the wood floor. Will that get me up to code? Which rug is the best one out there? I need a rectangle about 18" by 48"

Burn-in fire planned for tomorrow. One hour at 400 stove top temp? Then two more fires up to 600?

He said I can't use newspaper to start the fire, but I don't see that prohibited in the manual.

Any other tips for a first timer?

 

[DuaeGuttae]

Got the insert installed today.

I had pre-fabricated a block off plate and they installed it without questioning. They also blocked the gap between the liner and flue at the top. So this is as good as it's gonna get!

I plan to buy a fiberglass ember rug and set it on top of a steel plate on top of the wood floor. Will that get me up to code? Which rug is the best one out there? I need a rectangle about 18" by 48"

Burn-in fire planned for tomorrow. One hour at 400 stove top temp? Then two more fires up to 600?

He said I can't use newspaper to start the fire, but I don't see that prohibited in the manual.

Any other tips for a first timer? View attachment 195813

Looks nice.

I'm not a Blaze King user, but I've been studying the manual as we are considering replacing our current insert over the summer. I think you're okay with the plain black and white newsprint. Avoid shiny, glossy, colored stuff. Others can perhaps speak more authoritatively on that. Mostly I'm posting because I wanted to point out that the manual indicates in several places not to run the power cord in front of the insert. Do you have an outlet on the other side?

I'll be interested in hearing how things go for you. Enjoy!

 

[twd000]

Looks nice.

I'm not a Blaze King user, but I've been studying the manual as we are considering replacing our current insert over the summer. I think you're okay with the plain black and white newsprint. Avoid shiny, glossy, colored stuff. Others can perhaps speak more authoritatively on that. Mostly I'm posting because I wanted to point out that the manual indicates in several places not to run the power cord in front of the insert. Do you have an outlet on the other side?

I'll be interested in hearing how things go for you. Enjoy!

Yes I read the same warning about the power cord, AFTER the installers had left! No outlet available on the other side. I guess I'll try to tuck it under the ember rug so it doesn't melt.

 

[Niko]

Is their a besement underneath that floor? Run a new eletric outlet on the same side of the power cord.