Progress Hybrid Performance: Should Upgrade to Insulated Liner?

[progress_stover]

Hi all,

I posted a while back here about my set up. Briefly, I had a Progress Hybrid and new, 25-foot 6" SS uninsulated liner installed inside older clay tiles by some local guys. They didn't get a permit for the install and aren't willing to provide anymore service at this point.

The stove draft is good, but in my opinion not optimal as I will occasionally get a little smoke spill on reloads and backpuffing when stove's turned down very low for overnight burn. I haven't been able to go more than 1-2 weeks without smoke smelling up the house when reloading/overnight burn.

My question is, will an insulated liner make a huge difference in the draft and overall stove performance, given that most of my chimney is INTERNAL? It will be a headache and expensive to get installed because in addition to pulling out the new SS liner, the clay tiles will need to be busted out to get insulation in there. So, wondering if it is even worth it.

Also, if you read my prior post, I tried nearly everything to fix these issues, so am certain this isn't a user error/loading technique problem. I also bought a borescope and the flue is clean straight through.

Thank you in advance for your help!

 

[fire_man]

Hi all,

I posted a while back here about my set up. Briefly, I had a Progress Hybrid and new, 25-foot 6" SS uninsulated liner installed inside older clay tiles by some local guys. They didn't get a permit for the install and aren't willing to provide anymore service at this point.

The stove draft is good, but in my opinion not optimal as I will occasionally get a little smoke spill on reloads and backpuffing when stove's turned down very low for overnight burn. I haven't been able to go more than 1-2 weeks without smoke smelling up the house when reloading/overnight burn.

My question is, will an insulated liner make a huge difference in the draft and overall stove performance, given that most of my chimney is INTERNAL? It will be a headache and expensive to get installed because in addition to pulling out the new SS liner, the clay tiles will need to be busted out to get insulation in there. So, wondering if it is even worth it.

Also, if you read my prior post, I tried nearly everything to fix these issues, so am certain this isn't a user error/loading technique problem. I also bought a borescope and the flue is clean straight through.

Thank you in advance for your help!

I'm surprised with a 25' liner it does not draft better, even uninsulated. Mine is about 18' insulated. For a few years I ran it uninsulated and honestly I can't say there was much difference. I still get the occasional backpuff especially in warmer weather but in cold weather not a problem. Especially with an internal chimney, I would think insulating is more about clearance to combustibles than getting a better draft.

Is your wood very well seasoned, at least a couple years old? The hotter the firebox, the less mine tends to backpuff. The other thing you can do is open up the draft a bit during the burn cycle, don't close the damper down all the way. Even just opening the lever 1/2" beyond closed helps. Also there is a vent hole at the bottom near the glass that needs to be uncovered before each re-load. It helps reduce backpuffing.

I would have suggested adding a temporary 2' additional height to your setup if your liner was shorter, but 25' should have been more than enough.

 

[kennyp2339]

An insulated liner provides protection from a chimney fire if your masonry clearances are not to current standards, or have cracks in the flue tiles themselves, a benefit also is the flue gases are warmer so they are less likely to condense and form creosote, I suppose that warmer flue gases also add to better draft overall since the temp difference mitigates what is known as stack effect.
If your chimney has the right clearance, is in satisfactory condition and you dont get build up near the cap, then you may not benefit as much because flue gases are not cooling which means that the chimney is drafting fine, you may have an air pressure issue inside the house which could be corrected with a fresh air intake near the woodstove itself.

 

[progress_stover]

I'm surprised with a 25' liner it does not draft better, even uninsulated. Mine is about 18' insulated. For a few years I ran it uninsulated and honestly I can't say there was much difference. I still get the occasional backpuff especially in warmer weather but in cold weather not a problem. Especially with an internal chimney, I would think insulating is more about clearance to combustibles than getting a better draft.

Is your wood very well seasoned, at least a couple years old? The hotter the firebox, the less mine tends to backpuff. The other thing you can do is open up the draft a bit during the burn cycle, don't close the damper down all the way. Even just opening the lever 1/2" beyond closed helps. Also there is a vent hole at the bottom near the glass that needs to be uncovered before each re-load. It helps reduce backpuffing.

I would have suggested adding a temporary 2' additional height to your setup if your liner was shorter, but 25' should have been more than enough.

Thanks for your help, fire_man. This is my first year burning and I actually ran out of dry wood. All I have left is stuff in the 25%-ish moisture range on a freshly split face. I'm sure this isn't helping the situation.

I always leave the air lever about an inch open, otherwise I will get smoke in the house every time.

I wasn't aware of the vent hole you're describing. Where is it exactly? Inside the firebox?

 

[progress_stover]

An insulated liner provides protection from a chimney fire if your masonry clearances are not to current standards, or have cracks in the flue tiles themselves, a benefit also is the flue gases are warmer so they are less likely to condense and form creosote, I suppose that warmer flue gases also add to better draft overall since the temp difference mitigates what is known as stack effect.
If your chimney has the right clearance, is in satisfactory condition and you dont get build up near the cap, then you may not benefit as much because flue gases are not cooling which means that the chimney is drafting fine, you may have an air pressure issue inside the house which could be corrected with a fresh air intake near the woodstove itself.

Pretty sure my chimney doesn't meet the clearances.

Do you think I can add an outside air intake in my current setup? It would need to go into the chimney and downwards to draw air from the basement. The chimney is in the middle of our first floor living area and doesn't abut an external-facing wall.

 

[kennyp2339]

Honestly I wouldnt know without being there in first person, perhaps @bholler could give a better direction from here since this is his bread & butter.

 

[bholler]

Yes you should insulate. And it certainly may be possible to do fresh air by going down and out but it's hard to say remotely

 

[begreen]

Insulation may help, but the chimney location could be the main issue if this is a one-story addition to a 2 story house.

A non-commercial service in support of responsible home heating with wood - How Wind Affects Chimney Performance

The Wood Heat Organization was formed to support the public in the responsible use of wood energy in the home. We fulfill our mandate by providing reliable information, by conducting research into wood heating-related issues and by representing the public interest in discussions of policies that...

woodheat.org

 

[begreen]

Do you think I can add an outside air intake in my current setup? It would need to go into the chimney and downwards to draw air from the basement. The chimney is in the middle of our first floor living area and doesn't abut an external-facing wall.

Open a nearby window or door 1" and see if that makes a notable difference. If so, yes, an OAK will help. It can not draw basement air. The duct needs to go to an outside wall.

 

[fire_man]

Thanks for your help, fire_man. This is my first year burning and I actually ran out of dry wood. All I have left is stuff in the 25%-ish moisture range on a freshly split face. I'm sure this isn't helping the situation.

I always leave the air lever about an inch open, otherwise I will get smoke in the house every time.

I wasn't aware of the vent hole you're describing. Where is it exactly? Inside the firebo

When you say "I always leave the air lever about an inch open, otherwise I will get smoke in the house every time"

Are you doing this to prevent backpuffing, which is a buildup of gas inside the stove which ignites in a mini-explosion and puffs out the intake? Or is to prevent a general smoke smell that the stove is emitting from some unknown part of the stove?

Both conditions can cause a smoke smell, but the fixes may be different. You may have seen some threads others have described with the elusive Progress "smoke smell" . Woodstock had many cures for this condition but I would expect a newer stove like your to have them already installed.

Backpuffing is a different problem. The first line of defense for backpuffing is the vent hole I was referring to. It's located in the middle area directly below the andirons of the stove. It's an "anti burp" hole that allows a small amount of fresh air to always entire the firebox intended to reduce the chance of gases building up and igniting. It needs to be kept clear of ash buildup, but leaving the draft open an inch shoud have the same effect. Here is an ancient thread explaining backpuffing https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/a-whuffing-back-puffing-wood-stove.76459/.

One other suggestion is to add a temporary inexpensive 2' extension to your 25' flue and see if it helps. I don't think the height is the issue, but as others mentioned, something in the surrounding area (terrain/structure) might be impacting the draft.

I would love to see an experiment where the draft was accurately measured before and after the same liner was insulated.

 

[TWilk117]

Your woods not seasoned well enough. That is your biggest problem. Go buy kiln dried firewood from the grocery store or tractor supply and see what a difference it makes.
Also don’t shut down the stove too soon or all the way.

 

[tabner]

I get backpuffing if my wood is damp. And I also notice more smoke on reloads if the wood was damp (which seems a little bit illogical since it should be dry by the end of the burn, but I definitely notice it)
I would spend some time with good dry wood, and getting more experience with the stove, before I started large expensive chimney projects.

 

[SpaceBus]

Even grocery store "kiln dried" wood may not actually be dry enough. The best thing to use when you don't have the best firewood is something like BioBricks or similar product. Our first winter I used a few mixed in with marginally dried firewood, and that worked really well.

 

[Caw]

Every stove is different. I have 3 year old good dry hardwood and I run my stove on a 24' uninsulated liner. It drafts like champion...sometimes too well if it's really cold outside. If I were to insulate I'd likely need to look into a damper. No issues with smoke on reloads unless it's warmer outside (40+ F) and it's not fully coaled down yet and even then I can usually control it by opening the door gradually. Opening the door 1" and waiting a few seconds to slowly open it further can help smoke issues. I can open the door at any time with no issues when it's cold out.

Your big problem as stated above though is your wood. 25% isn't good enough and is going to smoke. I'd recommend getting some biobricks at your local Tractor Supply and seeing how it works before making any evaluations. You can also mix in a little bit of your wood with the bricks to save some $. Use the bricks to get it going then supplement with the mediocre wood.

 

[fire_man]

I was reluctant to jump on the "not dry enough wood" theory but it's something you should try regardless. I have experienced bad backpuffing with 4 year bone dry wood on warm days and many have experienced the Hybrid seepage smoke smell with very dry wood.

But it's definitely a good starting point to try (and always use) dry wood.

 

[progress_stover]

When you say "I always leave the air lever about an inch open, otherwise I will get smoke in the house every time"

Are you doing this to prevent backpuffing, which is a buildup of gas inside the stove which ignites in a mini-explosion and puffs out the intake? Or is to prevent a general smoke smell that the stove is emitting from some unknown part of the stove?

Both conditions can cause a smoke smell, but the fixes may be different. You may have seen some threads others have described with the elusive Progress "smoke smell" . Woodstock had many cures for this condition but I would expect a newer stove like your to have them already installed.

Backpuffing is a different problem. The first line of defense for backpuffing is the vent hole I was referring to. It's located in the middle area directly below the andirons of the stove. It's an "anti burp" hole that allows a small amount of fresh air to always entire the firebox intended to reduce the chance of gases building up and igniting. It needs to be kept clear of ash buildup, but leaving the draft open an inch shoud have the same effect. Here is an ancient thread explaining backpuffing https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/a-whuffing-back-puffing-wood-stove.76459/.

One other suggestion is to add a temporary inexpensive 2' extension to your 25' flue and see if it helps. I don't think the height is the issue, but as others mentioned, something in the surrounding area (terrain/structure) might be impacting the draft.

I would love to see an experiment where the draft was accurately measured before and after the same liner was insulated.

To answer your question, I was referring to leaving to air lever an inch open to prevent gas buildup and subsequent mini-explosions inside the stove. However, I am also experiencing the "smoke smell" issue due to the cooktop gasket not properly sealing (I am very familiar with all the smoke smell threads on here and other forums). I've been working with Woodstock to solve this for months (everything from replacing the cooktop to trying different gaskets, etc.) and their most recent suggestion has been for them to make me a silicone air-tight gasket that forms a hermetic seal between the cooktop and stove. I've been waiting for them to make it about 3 weeks now, as it requires them to order special parts.

I think I see the vent hole..is it the small gap between the andirons and glass that runs parallel to the base of the glass? This was filled with ash and I just cleaned it. Hopefully improves performance.

I was actually going to ask a chimney specialist I have coming tomorrow to measure draft before and after insulating the liner. Will be very interesting to see. Hopefully he has a device that can do that!

 

[progress_stover]

Every stove is different. I have 3 year old good dry hardwood and I run my stove on a 24' uninsulated liner. It drafts like champion...sometimes too well if it's really cold outside. If I were to insulate I'd likely need to look into a damper. No issues with smoke on reloads unless it's warmer outside (40+ F) and it's not fully coaled down yet and even then I can usually control it by opening the door gradually. Opening the door 1" and waiting a few seconds to slowly open it further can help smoke issues. I can open the door at any time with no issues when it's cold out.

Your big problem as stated above though is your wood. 25% isn't good enough and is going to smoke. I'd recommend getting some biobricks at your local Tractor Supply and seeing how it works before making any evaluations. You can also mix in a little bit of your wood with the bricks to save some $. Use the bricks to get it going then supplement with the mediocre wood.

Thanks, I was using 20%MC wood at the beginning of the heating season this year and there was a big difference. Right now, though, it's my first year burning and I have to work with what I have. I'm already 3-4 years ahead (CSS ~15 cords over the summer), so hopefully it will all be better from here on out

 

[Caw]

Thanks, I was using 20%MC wood at the beginning of the heating season this year and there was a big difference. Right now, though, it's my first year burning and I have to work with what I have. I'm already 3-4 years ahead (CSS ~15 cords over the summer), so hopefully it will all be better from here on out

That's good to hear. I'd strongly recommend going and getting the bio bricks. They aren't that expensive and consider it part of the installation cost. You're local near me so there are plenty of places to buy them. It's safer and much less of a headache than working with wet wood. Also like I mentioned you can supplement with a piece of two of your 25% wood once it's going or on a hotter than normal reload.

They can load a pallet right into your truck or you can piecemeal it together in your car with multiple trips. They might even offer quick turnover delivery depending on the store. I personally like Tractor Supply but there are other options.

You're also a savage for processing that much wood in the summer! Holy moly. My first year I did around 15 cords too but I did it in the winter. I try to be done processing all my wood by April at the latest, I can't stand the heat. This year I'm having a minor surgery in Feb so I'm gonna be a little late. I can already feel the swass.