Purposely Running the Stove Hot....Self Clean Mode???

[BurnIt13]

Okay, everyone put the flame guns away for a second. I have a serious question.

First a disclaimer. I'm not talking about the old timers who think running hot and having a chimney fire is good because it cleans things out...I'm talking about something much more controlled and well intentioned. I also sweep my chimney multiple times a season and burn with 20% or better wood. So here goes.

We have been running our Englander 30 24/7 this winter. We have lots of draft so we need to shut the air down quick to get ahead of it. Typically the flames mostly go out on the wood itself and the secondaries take over. Stove top hangs out at about 600-650F and the flue temps stay between 550-650F. The bottom wood on the sides tends to smoke as its the furthest away from the doghouse air. The smoke gets burnt up by the secondaries but makes the sides of the stove and the bottom of the glass dirty. No smoke comes out the chimney.

Obviously smaller, hotter fires clean things up a bit....but not all the way. And not when you are doing 2 or 3 full loads a day trying to go low and slow it tends to build up a bit.

What happened....
So we came back from a weekend at my parents house and the thermostat was keeping the house at 55F for us. Time to get a hot fire going to warm the house back up. I ran the stove hard to warm the place up faster. Using small and medium splits I got the stove top up into the 700's and the flue temp was in the 700's as well. Things maybe peaked at 800/800F for a little while as the wood was really offgassing.

Obviously I only got about 2 hours out of this load but the house was still cool. Added some more wood on top of the large bed of coals and repeated it. After this load the house was up to temp and I had a very large bed of coals. I raked the coals and put a couple small splits on the coals to help burn them down. Sure I wasted a little wood and some unnecessary amount of heat went up the flue but the house was now warm and no fossil fuels were used.

The end result?
My dirty-ish glass and inside of the stove was sparkling clean. Like showroom clean. It doesn't even get this clean when I brush and vacuum the inside of it when I sweep the chimney. My cap was also less black...more like dark brownish.

Soooooo...is running the stove hard with stove top and flue temps closer to 800 on purpose just to help dry things up a bad thing? Obviously it wouldn't be the best idea on a chimney that hasn't been swept in a long while. It is also important to make sure that the flame doesn't go too far over the baffle board as it would be horrible for flames to go up the flue. And never make your stove so hot that it glows.....

We've all hit 800F temps in our flue or stove tops at one time or another. But is it pure stupidity to do this intentionally for an extended period of time.....just to help clean the stove and dry up any potential creosote in the flue?

Thanks!

 

[zzr7ky]

Hi - i run like you describe when i come home to a cold stove. For the reasons you state. Warm the house and cldear soot. I start from a cold start more frequently as the kids get out on their own.

Iven running 24/7 I'll open the air a bit for a short period, say while making a little lunch and damp it back after say 20 minutes. That clears any soot from the glass and the rest I don't worry about. It's a stove not a fragile Christmas ornament .
Enjoy,
Mike

 

[Chimney Smoke]

I try to run a little on the hot side when I'm starting the stove up and also when I'm home on weekends and such. I close the air down a bit more than I probably should on overnight burns or during the day when I'm at work so I have enough coals for a warm restart. I don't get excessive creosote buildup and my wood is dry so it seems to be a good balance.

 

[Bobbin]

I lit the Fireview just before noontime (cold start). The window always soots up when the stove is started. In 20minutes the stove was nicely up and running (400 and climbing). I ran it with the bottom draft control open for a bit and the soot was gone a few minutes later (closing in on 500). The manual for the stove says to run the stove hot as it helps to keep the window clean. (I like the "self clean" idea).

 

[Chimney Smoke]

Even when I close the air down for a long burn my glass stays clean except for the bottom corners have some light brown haze that burns off immediately.

 

[BurnIt13]

Understood. My glass tends to stay dirty in the corners unless I burn reeeeeeeeaaaaly hot. Which brings up my question. Is running the stove hotter than typical use at 800/800F completely stupid? It cleans off my glass and the inside of the stove. I assume it helps clean anything inside the flue as well.

 

[Chuck the Canuck]

Is running the stove hotter than typical use at 800/800F completely stupid? It cleans off my glass and the inside of the stove. I assume it helps clean anything inside the flue as well.

Howdy. My stove manual recommends that I don't go over 700°F on the stove top surface. Do they state any such recommendations like that in the Englander manual? Curious because the 30 is one of the 2 that I'm interested in for a future upgrade.....

Cheers

 

[BurnIt13]

To my knowledge they do not have a maximum listed stove top temp. They basically say "Do not overfire the stove. If anything glows...you are overfiring". The Englander 30 is a heat monster and radiates an immense amount of heat when the secondaries are going. The Englander 30 loves to stretch its legs when the secondaries are in full force and 700F is not uncommon on a full load. Excessive draft only make the secondaries even more powerfull. In the dead of winter on full loads the stove top reaches into the 700's on a daily basis.

A full reload on a bed of coals, when the draft is high due to super cold temps...an 800F+ stove top is no big deal with a full load of dense wood.

But there is an unwanted side effect which ties this thread together. When the stove top is running hot...it is because the stove is 100% running on secondaries. On a full load the wood is off gassing and the secondaries are eating it up. The bottom layer of wood smokes and the smoke discolors the glass and soots up the stove a bit.

Having a couple medium sized really hot fires helps put the stove in "self clean" mode. I'm wondering if doing this intentionally is a bad thing.

 

[smokedragon]

Many of the stoves with secondary combustion tubes specifically say that they must be run hot to be efficient, 550+. 800 is a little hotter than I would want to go every day, but my concern is more the chimney than the stove......if you have any buildup in your chimney, and it gets to 800, you can cause a chimney fire.

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

To my knowledge they do not have a maximum listed stove top temp. They basically say "Do not overfire the stove. If anything glows...you are overfiring". The Englander 30 is a heat monster and radiates an immense amount of heat when the secondaries are going. The Englander 30 loves to stretch its legs when the secondaries are in full force and 700F is not uncommon on a full load. Excessive draft only make the secondaries even more powerfull. In the dead of winter on full loads the stove top reaches into the 700's on a daily basis.

A full reload on a bed of coals, when the draft is high due to super cold temps...an 800F+ stove top is no big deal with a full load of dense wood.

But there is an unwanted side effect which ties this thread together. When the stove top is running hot...it is because the stove is 100% running on secondaries. On a full load the wood is off gassing and the secondaries are eating it up. The bottom layer of wood smokes and the smoke discolors the glass and soots up the stove a bit.

Having a couple medium sized really hot fires helps put the stove in "self clean" mode. I'm wondering if doing this intentionally is a bad thing.

Mine states the same thing, do not over fire...if you see glowing, you are over firing......
I haven't seen any glowing so far, when I really heat it up, I can hear a few pings of metal but that's about it.
When I have a nice bed of red hot coals, the fire brick is factory white so I am thinking that I am burning correctly...

 

[DougA]

The question is then, is it glowing at 800? I don't own an Englander but I very much doubt it. You're well below that point.
As far as I know a chimney is made to regularly go 900.

 

[BurnIt13]

I've never ever seen my 30 glow, or the stove pipe connected to it for that matter. Even during my first year when I had no clue and was burning sub par wood and hitting 900F a few times because I waited too long to shut the air down I didn't see anything glow. It is a very stout stove.

My Selkirk DSP is UL-103 and the Selkirk Ultra-Temp Double Wall Chimney is UL-103HT rated. They are good for 1000F continuous....all day everyday.

 

[branchburner]

The question is then, is it glowing at 800? You're well below that point.

Depends on what your definition of "glowing" is. This says steel emits "black red" at 798f:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_heat
(Some would say as low as 752f, though personally I would go with the Draper point, at 977f.)

There are two related concerns here. First, will any damage be done... probably not. Second, could this be considered "overfiring" in the unlikely event of a warranty claim... probably yes. The reason being, the stove manufacturer can't know what temps the stove was run at other than by assessing the condition of the stove and its components. If any damage appears due to excessive temps, they might deny the claim.

In other words, its the mere existence of a temp-related claim that can effectively define overfiring, and NOT just whether the stove was seen to glow or it registered high thermometer readings. (The stove manufacturer does not know the accuracy of your thermometer, your eyeballs, or your story-telling.)

Another question is then, is this extended hot burn really peaking at about 800f, or potentially higher... and for how long... and how exactly will you know ahead of time? I would say it is perfectly fine to "burn hot" to clean the glass, if it's done within reason, at the lowest possible temps for the shortest possible time required to get the job done adequately. Around 800f for a few hours seems within reason. My glass cleans up pretty good at 700f for an hour... but I'm sure I could get it even cleaner at 900f for six hours!

 

[BurnIt13]

Hmmm. Interesting read. For what its worth I have stared at the stove many times with the lights off trying to see anything.....I have never seen the slightest sign of glowing. The only ambient light in the room was from the fire.

I also take my temps with an IR gun which always reads higher than the Condar stove top thermometer, especially at the high end. The flue temp is measured with a Condar Flue Probe, around 20" up the stovepipe.

 

[smokedragon]

The question is then, is it glowing at 800? I don't own an Englander but I very much doubt it. You're well below that point.
As far as I know a chimney is made to regularly go 900.

Steel will not visibly glow until about 1200F (some people could see it at a lower temp in a dark room, but still looking at over 1000).

Either way, you are well above 800 if you see it glowing, even in a dark room.

Depends on what your definition of "glowing" is. This says steel emits "black red" at 798f:

"black red" is the first sign of glow in complete darkness.......just like some people can't hear certain sounds, black red will show up at different temps.......798F is the low end of that......most people aren't going to see it until closer to 1000F. That is if the room is nearly completely dark.

If you have much light on at all (lamp, tv, etc) then you are really looking at more 1100 - 1200F range. That's one hot stove.

UL tests stove clearances to 1400F, which is the bright (cherry) red range. That's when you can see it glowing in a well lit room. So it might damage your stove, but it won't burn your house down (if you have followed the clearances.

 

[branchburner]

Steel will not visibly glow until about 1200F

That's why you would want to know exactly what a stove manufacturer means by "glowing" as a definition of overfiring: visible glowing at 1200f or the technical point of about 750f when red heat could conceivably be detected in the dark. Likely somewhere in between, because I can't imagine a company denying a warranty claim for a stove that ran at 750f, nor can I imagine a company saying a stove that hit 1150f was NOT overfired.

 

[smokedragon]

That's why you would want to know exactly what a stove manufacturer means by "glowing" as a definition of overfiring: visible glowing at 1200f or the technical point of about 750f when red heat could conceivably be detected in the dark. Likely somewhere in between, because I can't imagine a company denying a warranty claim for a stove that ran at 750f, nor can I imagine a company saying a stove that hit 1150f was NOT overfired.

I think many of the manufacturer's are vague for that exact reason. They inspect your stove, and they say they found "evidence of overfiring" or abuse.

Additionally (as I am sure people will chime in) I have read many posts where one person's stove cruises and heats quite nicely at 550F, while another brand frequently hits 700.



Many stove top thermometers give the "ideal zone" to be a low of 370 - 400, and a high of 650 - 700. I imagine that is the range most manufacturer's would prefer you stay in (since I would assume at least a few of the big ones had some say in those gadgets).

My old stove has peaked at 650, and I don't have secondaries.......so I imagine that it would be pretty easy to get 700+ with my setup and a secondary burn system.

The nice thing about an older stove, no warranty to void. Just need to make sure you don't burn the house down and it will be ok.

My $0.02

 

[branchburner]

My old stove has peaked at 650, and I don't have secondaries.......so I imagine that it would be pretty easy to get 700+ with my setup and a secondary burn system.

Since my stove is downdraft technology, there is no baffle... if I leave the air wide open without closing the bypass damper, I am over 800f in pretty short order. And then the burn chamber can get that high occasionally when I do close the bypass. Been there many times... only worried me when I first got the stove.

And the nice thing about buying a newer-model used EPA stove at a fraction of full retail, like your stove, no warranty to void... but I do wonder how bad the last guy abused it!

 

[Chuck the Canuck]

I set up a data logging system to run for a few days to monitor the stove top temps of my stove over an extended period of time. Not that the idea about using a paper clip on a magnetic thermometer wouldn't work either; this was just more fun...

 

[smokedragon]

I set up a data logging system to run for a few days to monitor the stove top temps of my stove over an extended period of time

I like the way you work

And the nice thing about buying a newer-model used EPA stove at a fraction of full retail, like your stove, no warranty to void... but I do wonder how bad the last guy abused it!

I am looking to upgrade to an EPA (catalytic) stove before next burning season. Because there are SO FEW in my area, used will not be an option......that whole warranty thing worries me greatly

Hopefully I will have no issues, and after a few seasons it will just be ho hum.

 

[branchburner]

I am looking to upgrade to an EPA (catalytic) stove before next burning season. Because there are SO FEW in my area, used will not be an option.....

Heck, you are right in Buck country -- should be lots around, new and used, though Buck probably sells a lot more non-cats than cats.

I'm considering the new steel cat-hybrid coming out from Woodstock @ $1800. No warranty worries with them, it seems, given the high praise they get on the forum here.

 

[smokedragon]

You would think that.......talked to buck and you cannot buy direct from them. There are very few dealers around me, and they have their prices so high I could order from a few out of state outfits and save money. No a buck dealer within 60 miles of me with products on display either (I only live 90 miles from the factory). The other thing that threw buck out of contention is that all of their stoves that run a 6" flue are smaller than my current setup. Not gonna downgrade. I would go with the 94 (non cat) or the 91 (cat) but both need 8" flues.

There are very few people around here who burn newer stoves. I have searched within 200 miles of me, and finding a used EPA stove is a slim chance in these parts. Now finding an old smoke dragon, there are 40 of those a week for sale during peak season.

I have a very short list of stoves, and for my climate I have pretty much talked myself into catalytic. If blaze king would let me try the KING on my 6" flue and give me a refund if it didn't draw, I would try that stove over Woodstock . With such a following, they can't be bad stoves, and 4+ cubic foot firebox is very appealing.

Still, right now it is between the progress hybrid and the ideal steel. Both have their pros and cons, but one will probably be my next stove.

 

[branchburner]

Both have their pros and cons, but one will probably be my next stove.

The Ideal Steel beta-testing threads are making it look like a pretty good bargain.

I forgot the big Bucks go 8" on the flue. Funny (=sad) that you can't get a good deal on one so close to home.

 

[smokedragon]

I forgot the big Bucks go 8" on the flue. Funny (=sad) that you can't get a good deal on one so close to home.

The other sad part is that their stoves go from 2.2 - 2.6 cu ft fireboxes, straight to the 4+ cu ft 91/94 model. Nothing in between.