Putting a 1975 Defiant in old house- a few questions

[waterbird15]

We have an old house under 1500 sq feet with no insulation and have purchased an older Defiant to combat the drafts and the cold this upcoming winter. I had a defiant growing up and remembered it being a nice stove but when I went to the stove shop yesterday to get the oval to round adapter the guy said that they are a "wood monster!!" and that they smoke a lot and you will burn a ton of wood because they are only 12% efficient. I guess I dont really care about the smoke but I would like to know from anyone who has them, do they burn a lot of wood?? We will most likely run this stove non stop all winter much like the small stove we had last year that only used maybe 2-3 cords at the most. So I am trying to figure out how much wood to have so that I dont run short in the middle of the winter. Anyones experiences would be greatly appreciated.
Um, also about the heat these pu out. Our small house has several small room all over with several doorways and a hall or two between them. Our stove will be in on one side of the house towards the middle as we have a chimney that goes through th middle of the house. We will have the usuall fans to move the heat around the best we can but am wondering if this stove will blast us out of the 15x 12 room its in or can you adjust them so they put out a tolerable amount of heat while we are doing what wever in this room?
One more loaded question. Heres the deal, we are redoing the room the stove is in and want to make it looks as stream line and classy if you will as possible. As far as the distance between the wall and the stove............ we have all the specs and general safety dimentions so we have that all into consideration, but we have a few particulars about the install. We --do not-- want to have to look at a cement board mounted to the wall behind the stove and we dont want to do a wall of brick either because we want to forget winter when the stove is gone in the summer. We will have 5/8 firegaurd sheet rock on this wall but understand that it is still considered a combustable. So we see that this stove has the mounts for a heat shield. We haven't had any luck finding a new one but figure making a decent one will probally be the most logical solution. So we are curious what teh rest of the world has done with their stoves in small room and simular situations. We know this is a tall order to be fancy and safe but others experiences would be appreciated.

Thanks for any help/ info!!

 

[begreen]

Can you have someone local that really knows this stove give it a close interior eyeball? It is a decent heater, but far from the efficiency of new stoves. Before installing, used compressed air and completely blow out all the passages in the stove. (Use the manual as a guide). Then examine very closely for leaks and cracks. You can have someone shine a strong light or flashlight at night on the interior of the stove while you look on the exterior for light leaks. Then examine the bypass operation. Make sure it works well and the bypass plate is not warped. Then check that the thermostatic damper operation is good (a hair dryer on low will work for heating it up).

If you need a wall shield to reduce clearances, consider tiling it to make it look nice all year round. It can carry on the tile theme of the hearth, or contrast to it. We have some beautiful hearths done this way. Go to the Perfect Picture forum here and take a look. Here's an example:

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/18463/

edit: you might check with fbelec who has been running a Defiant for awhile.
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/41230/

 

[branchburner]

Was that 12% number pulled out of a hat? Sounds so. I also grew up w/ a 70s Defiant, in a decent-sized kitchen, and yes, a few times we did get out of the kitchen because we couldn't stand the heat. That is a small room for a big stove that really cranks when loaded.

As an "airtight" w/ a thermostatically controlled draft, we often burned with too little air, trying to slow the fire. This leads to lots of smoke, creosote buildup if not careful, and we did have a chimney fire eventually (it was dumping into an external, unlined chimney - our bad). My Dad still runs the stove (into a clay-lined flue now), but more as backup/supplemental, and usually with the bypass open. He does short, hot fires, so he is not efficient with wood, but is not coating the flue with junk. So keep an eye on your flue if you are damping down the air. The stove burns really well as a fireplace with the front open, too.

Chances are good if that stove has been burned hard it will have some warping or other wear - did the previous owner maintain it, or just use it?

Don't forget, the 30% tax credit applies to certain insulation expenses. Best way to combat drafts.

 

[fraxinus]

When brand new the old Defiants were rated at 60% efficiency. With time, the deterioration of the stove cement (this is the primary cause of smoke leaking at the joints when starting a fire), and especially the breakdown of the secondary air tube between the fireback and rear casting, the efficiency goes down. 12%, however, seems way, way too low. As far as wood consumption goes, I have averaged 8 cords per year in a 1600 square foot 19th century house with minimal insulation. That's for 24/7 burning with the stove as the primary heat source - used 63 gallons of oil last winter. Running the stove hot - in the updraft mode - for a time each day is important to in keeping creosote to a minimum. Exterior chimneys which never really stay warm enough, running the stove in a damped down mode excessively, and green wood can cause the Defiant, like many other stoves, to produce a lot of creosote.

Careful cleaning - especially the area between the fireback and the rear casting, - inspection for cracks and making sure to use reasonably dry wood will allow this stove to operate at its best.

 

[waterbird15]

thanks for the replys so far.
As for the stoves condition the previous owner got it by trading lawn mowers or something but from what i see there is no major warping. With the dampner closed it appears to be tight. If you were to open the fron doors and look straight in that plate has two small cracks that were repaired by some means that look to be ok and well done. So overall I feel ok that the stove is in good to go condition.
I need to do some research (I have already seen a lot of info on how to burn with these stoves) on the tricks and proper metods of running these stoves utilizing the features it has.
From what replys I have read this stove does burn some wood if used as we used our last small one last year which was basically 24/7. I'm ok with this because it seems to produce the heat to make it worth it.

thanks

 

[cmonSTART]

I think 12% is a bit off. That's down in open fireplace efficiency range and it certainly throws more heat than that. We had a Defiant of similar vintage when I grew up. It heated our house but did eat a bit of wood. It's going to burn more wood than a new stove as said above but it could be worse. Make sure the damper closes well and the seams are tight. Some playground sand or firebrick in the bottom of the stove will help a bit.

 

[peakbagger]

I just finished a complete tear down of a early Defiant yesterday. It took me 6 hours to tear it apart. clean out all the old refractory from the joints and reassemble. I did it with a wire brush on a grinder and a small chisel for the rough spots. Mine was apart about 14 years ago and most of the joints were tight but I did find a few spots that were loose but none that would effect efficiency. Even though my lower back plate was cracked, the secondary air channel on the back of the plate was still sealed but the cracks could have allowed gases to bypass the secondary burn chamber. Given its history, its time to take yours apart and reseal it and if you are planning to use it a lot, you might as well replace the lower fireback. If the fireback is one continuous piece, I would not convert it over as the parts are pretty expensive. Assuming everything isnt warped, the only parts you may need to replace are the steel rods holding it together. By the way, this is a very dirty job, wear old clothes, a dust mask and do your cleaning outside.

These stoves may have been regarded as wood monsters as they were rated for 54000 btus per hour which is a lot more than many stoves sold at the time. Many were purchased for their looks and installed in small rooms which overheated rapidly, so they were run at part load with the air damper closed. Sound familiar?. You will be able to run the stove, but its not going to be happy in a small room. Bascially you will need to do small hot burns every few hours and never load the firebox up. VC made some smaller units that would be better suited. The heat shield is basically a piece of sheetmetal with four standoffs, nothing fancy at all. A coupld of chunks steel tubing and some long bolts and you are set.

When they were operated as a fireplace with the optional grille, they were about as efficent as a franklin fireplace (which is real low), when operated as a normal stove with the bypass open, they also were not great, but once the bypass was shut, they get efficient. The thermostatic damper works somewhat for small fires but once the stove is loaded up with wood and at temperature, it should be cranked open, as anytime its closed, the stove is starved for air and there will be incomplete combustion. Operated like this with wet wood, they can generate creosote. Operated correctly, they are very clean, I inspect my chimney every year and in over 20 years, I cleaned it once, mostly out of guilt more than need.

 

[spirilis]

I just finished a complete tear down of a early Defiant yesterday. It took me 6 hours to tear it apart. clean out all the old refractory from the joints and reassemble. I did it with a wire brush on a grinder and a small chisel for the rough spots. Mine was apart about 14 years ago and most of the joints were tight but I did find a few spots that were loose but none that would effect efficiency. Even though my lower back plate was cracked, the secondary air channel on the back of the plate was still sealed but the cracks could have allowed gases to bypass the secondary burn chamber. Given its history, its time to take yours apart and reseal it and if you are planning to use it a lot, you might as well replace the lower fireback. If the fireback is one continuous piece, I would not convert it over as the parts are pretty expensive. Assuming everything isnt warped, the only parts you may need to replace are the steel rods holding it together. By the way, this is a very dirty job, wear old clothes, a dust mask and do your cleaning outside.

These stoves may have been regarded as wood monsters as they were rated for 54000 btus per hour which is a lot more than many stoves sold at the time. Many were purchased for their looks and installed in small rooms which overheated rapidly, so they were run at part load with the air damper closed. Sound familiar?. You will be able to run the stove, but its not going to be happy in a small room. Bascially you will need to do small hot burns every few hours and never load the firebox up. VC made some smaller units that would be better suited. The heat shield is basically a piece of sheetmetal with four standoffs, nothing fancy at all. A coupld of chunks steel tubing and some long bolts and you are set.

When they were operated as a fireplace with the optional grille, they were about as efficent as a franklin fireplace (which is real low), when operated as a normal stove with the bypass open, they also were not great, but once the bypass was shut, they get efficient. The thermostatic damper works somewhat for small fires but once the stove is loaded up with wood and at temperature, it should be cranked open, as anytime its closed, the stove is starved for air and there will be incomplete combustion. Operated like this with wet wood, they can generate creosote. Operated correctly, they are very clean, I inspect my chimney every year and in over 20 years, I cleaned it once, mostly out of guilt more than need.

I have a thought about that. Is there any kind of sense in building some structure around it, i.e. a mass of masonry and using it to collect heat from the Defiant like how a masonry heater works? Seems like it'd be the perfect companion to that beast; heat some kind of mass (or maybe a tank of water?) and let it dissipate slowly.

(I come up with a lot of crazy ideas, BTW :D )

 

[branchburner]

You can increase thermal mass, either as part of the stove (cast iron, soapstone) or right around the stove (masonry hearth, chimney) or away from the stove (large potted plants, stone tables). The greater the thermal mass, the greater the lag time in the room warming up and then in cooling down.
But a stove that size still wants to heat a lot of surrounding air, so even while transferring some heat into surrounding thermal mass, a small room is going to get pretty warm with a full firebox. And that mass is holding the heat in a room that is already hot. It can't radiate it anywhere else but back into the same room. You need to find a way to transfer that thermal mass to other parts of the house, and then you're back to hot water heat.
So even though it would be nice to transfer all that radiant heat, you are stuck with trying to transfer convective heat. I have found the best method is a floor fan blowing cool air into the hot room, rather than trying to blow warm air out of that room.

 

[spirilis]

You can increase thermal mass, either as part of the stove (cast iron, soapstone) or right around the stove (masonry hearth, chimney) or away from the stove (large potted plants, stone tables). The greater the thermal mass, the greater the lag time in the room warming up and then in cooling down.
But a stove that size still wants to heat a lot of surrounding air, so even while transferring some heat into surrounding thermal mass, a small room is going to get pretty warm with a full firebox. And that mass is holding the heat in a room that is already hot. It can't radiate it anywhere else but back into the same room. You need to find a way to transfer that thermal mass to other parts of the house, and then you're back to hot water heat.
So even though it would be nice to transfer all that radiant heat, you are stuck with trying to transfer convective heat. I have found the best method is a floor fan blowing cool air into the hot room, rather than trying to blow warm air out of that room.

Ah yeah, good call on blowing cool air in. Fans are at the floor and cool air falls to the floor, so it makes sense.

 

[fbelec]

as you guys know i'm running the defiant 1 as primary heater. my stove is in my kitchen which is two parts the stove is in a small room with a 9 foot door opening into the rest of a small kitchen. anyway, my house is 1280 square feet. i use the stove 24/7 i go thru 3 to 4 cord of wood a year. my stove sits on a doublebrick thick hearth and is siting in the corner of the room. in the corner floor to ceiling is brick. 1 brick thick. like you said it's slow to heat the house because it has to heat the bricks. then it starts throwing big heat. it will blow you out of the kitchen, but the rest of the house is comfy. i use it in updraft mode because i need to work on the secondary air passage as we talked about on the other tread. but i do get 7 to 8 hours of heat out of a full load. waterbird it is a nice heating stove, but you have to remember regardless the room size you have to use a thermometer on the cook plate and run it at the temp the manual says. 500 to 600

 

[waterbird15]

Thanks! That was just the answer I was looking for.