Quad wizard needed

[Electroau]

Just picked up a used quad. CB1200.
Hooked it up to a 6" chimney insert, went to set the feed rate and the fire goes out.. Spent hours researching how to dampen the intake (it seems like to much air for the feed, and yes I already adjusted the feed to all the way open). Then low and behold I found the the trouble shooting flow chart on this site. It says that the auger should run for 7.5 seconds.. Mine is only going around 4. 5. How do you adjust this..

Thanks in advance

 

[Electroau]

Just turned the pot to #2 position.. It is better, but still too much air for the feed rate.. (just over 8 secs of augur rotation

 

[DMKNLD]

Hello Electroau, and welcome to this forum !! Lots of new members joining daily and dozens of new posts is keeping everyone on here busy! Lots of Quad and CB owners on here - I recommend including 'CB' or 'Classic Bay' in your thread post title and it will catch the eye of folks who have that stove model and can often best help.

I have a Castile model, which has some similar Quad features to your CB, but hopefully someone with your stove will chime in here. I'll probably have more questions for you than answers, but will hopefully start the troubleshooting process for you and others will 'pick up the ball'. I see you found the troubleshooting flow chart - I assume you have the CB manual? Here's an on-line copy if you don't, (broken link removed to http://hearthnhome.com/downloads/installManuals/7014_179.pdf)

Is your CB an insert model, or is it a free - standing that you are venting into an existing 6" chimney ? Many folks vent their pellet stoves into existing chimneys and have no problems, others have nothing but problems depending on whether your chimney is lined or un-lined, is in a fully enclosed 'warm' chimney coming out of the middle of your house vs an external 'cold' chimney on an outside wall, how much cfm your combustion blower moves, etc

I have my Quad direct vented through an exterior wall with 3" PL venting, so I'll have to defer to others who have chimney installs who can better help you on that. But my point is your chimney / venting system will have a direct effect on your stoves ability to draft and maintain the appropriate negative pressure vacuum effectively via the combustion blower, which could be related to why you are having burn problems.

RE your fuel /air mixture, there is no 'air dampening' adjustment on Quads, just fuel feed adjustments via the feeder gate in the hopper.The combustion blower adjusts the amount of air it pulls through the burn pot at the different heat / pellet feed settings controlled via the control box. The feed gate needs to be adjusted when your stove is on high setting and the flame is lapping 4 - 6" above the burn pot,

That assumes your stove is even staying lit long enough to get to that point, which you didn't say at what particular point your fire goes out. Does it light after an initial pellet drop, and then go out, or does it burn for awhile and then fizzle? Those could indicate an inadequate air flow issue, proof of fire / thermo-couple problem, among others.

It sounds like your auger is at least working, and your igniter is working, but we really need more info on the fire characteristics and what isn't to go to the next steps.
Just saw your update post, and I'm no sure what you mean that you "moved the pot to #2", did you turn up the heat / fan setting switch?

 

[Electroau]

Thanks.. No I turned the pot on the control board (other threads in here talk about it), it gives about 10% more pellets.

It still basically burns itself out.. Even with the auger running at over 8 seconds. Eventually the air supply overwhelms the feed, fireworks develop, and it slowly dies out.
The auagur still operates, until the thermocouple decides it's cold and starts the shutdown procedure.

Yes my chimney had a 6" stainless liner (from the wood stove I I ripped out) that was installed by the previous owner lay year.
It is an internal chimney on am exterior wall.

 

[DMKNLD]

You may have vent / chimney issues affecting your airflow through your fire pot and stove, but that will have to be someone else helping you who knows more about chimney venting than me - sorry bro!!

But I'll try to help on a couple of things - you must have the newer style clear control box if you could do the 10% fuel adjustment on it - when the pellets drop then 1st ignite, the 'proof of fire' thermo-couple - the thing that sticks out into your fire pot - will heat up until it reaches the 200 F temp, then will turn on a green light inside your control box. Then it will start the auger cycling again every 6 secs or so and feed pellets until a red light in the control box comes on after sensing the fire pot is at 600F, then your room air convection blower can kick on and blow warm air.

Do you get a green light, or do you get a green light but then no red light in the control box before the fire goes out ?

 

[Electroau]

I get all the correct lights.. Yes it is a a clear controller.

Could this be the problem? It looks like a Crack at the bottom of the burn pot towards the front and maybe this is where the "extra" air is coming from?

Where is the best place to buy a replacement pot?

 

[DMKNLD]

Could certainly be - how old is your stove ? Somewhere on the side panel area should be a sticker that has your production number / model / year info.

I'm not sure if the Quad CB model came out when they still had ceramic fire pots or not. But the OEM ceramic fire pot on my 13 y/o Castile cracked, so I replaced it with the new style cast steel pot, which improved the airflow and is supposedly easier on the igniters longevity.

I would take your fire pot out and inspect it more closely than you can while it is in the stove.

I went through my local Quad dealer to replace my fire pot - he has been great support on parts troubleshooting so I like to give him my business, but I'm sure you can shop around on-line at Amazon or E-bay to find the best deal on price.

So does your stove stay lit long enough to get a red light in the control box ? Does the convection room air blower ever come on?

I still think we need to confirm that your chimney / venting isn't part of your air flow issues. I hope someone tomorrow will sign on who can help more on that.

 

[Electroau]

Starting to get a handle on this.. The "crack" is actually the slit for the igniter.

I continued to search this site and came across a suggestion to Crack the door a little.. In doing this I now have the "correct" fire..

Further investigation shows the air inlet through a rectangular hole at the rear behind the bottom of the burn pot.

I will end up fabricating a variable reducer.

It does however make me wonder if any stove manufacturer measures the vacuum and auto adjust the combustion motor speed..

Obviously outside air temps play a part in the performance, (creating a natural draft) and as such, I figure there is efficiency to be gained.

 

[DMKNLD]

I continued to search this site and came across a suggestion to Crack the door a little.. In doing this I now have the "correct" fire..

One of the requisite default safety features on any pellet stove is that the firebox needs to maintain a negative combustion chamber pressure to prevent the back draft of noxious gases into your house.

So, unlike a wood stove, if the negative pressure vacuum safety system is working correctly on a Quad pellet stove, as soon as you 'crack the door a little' it should immediately shut down your pellet feed, and thus the burn cycle, rather than giving you the 'correct fire'. I've heard of folks momentarily 'cracking the door' on a Quad pellet stove to visualize what a 'lazy flame' looks like, (assuming the stove is otherwise running correctly), but not to get the stove to run as you claimed. Did you perhaps mean you 'cracked' the ash pan door as opposed to the stoves firebox door ? Even then, that shouldn't be necessary either to make things run right with your stove.

It does however make me wonder if any stove manufacturer measures the vacuum and auto adjust the combustion motor speed..

When a Quad, or any pellet stove, is functioning correctly, the control box does sense the correct vacuum and auto adjusts the combustion motor speed to the amount of pellets that the control box tells the auger to feed to the fire pot. Tons of R&D have gone into the Quad designs, which have a long history of pellet burning efficiency and even more importantly, pellet burning safety. Helping you get your stove to be both of those things is obviously the end goal here.

Further investigation shows the air inlet through a rectangular hole at the rear behind the bottom of the burn pot.

Your fire pot has seven or so smaller sized air holes along the sloped section of the fire pot, and seven or eight larger sized air holes scattered around the fire pot body. See the attached pics below. Those holes should be the only air inlet source into the fire pot, besides the slit for the igniter. So I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to as the "air inlet through the rectangular hole at the rear behind the bottom of the burn pot" is.

You have a fire pot 'trap door' mechanism that swings open via a pull knob and spring linkage that dumps the fire pot ash into the ash pan below. This 'trap door' needs to be fully closed to assure the air is moving through the fire pot air holes and not through a partially open 'trap door'. Is the 'rectangular hole' you mention possibly your trap door partially stuck open?

I will end up fabricating a variable reducer.

You should not have to fabricate a variable reducer if you have the three things a pellet stove needs to burn pellets correctly - correct fuel delivery, absence of air leaks / presence of vacuum, and the absence of any venting restrictions. From the info you've given, I believe you have a problem with one or a combination of several of those 3 issues.

I'm going to 'tag team' your post thread with a Quad technician who posts regularly on here, @kappel15, aka 'kap', as well as TJ, @tjnamtiw , who is also excellent on anything Quad related, and bring them into the loop so they can better ascertain what's going on with your stove, OK?

 

[Mt Bob]

Starting to get a handle on this.. The "crack" is actually the slit for the igniter.

I continued to search this site and came across a suggestion to Crack the door a little.. In doing this I now have the "correct" fire..

Further investigation shows the air inlet through a rectangular hole at the rear behind the bottom of the burn pot.

I will end up fabricating a variable reducer.

It does however make me wonder if any stove manufacturer measures the vacuum and auto adjust the combustion motor speed..

Obviously outside air temps play a part in the performance, (creating a natural draft) and as such, I figure there is efficiency to be gained.

Well saw your post,and,got alittle mad and pissed.You seem to be new to pellets,yet did not do your research.No need to complain about technology you have not researched.Austroflamm?rika and harman has technology that you describe,that works very well.You bought a used unit,obviously know nothing about the industry,please do not knock manufacturers.

 

[Electroau]

Wow... Thanks for the help.. No I'm not new to pellets.. Just new to quadrafire.

The door is cracked and the stove is still working.. Yes.. I I have that much natural draft that it still registers a vacuum, hence why I have so much air in the burn pot.

There is a huge difference between using a vacuum switch as a safety device and using it to control combustion air flow.

Please o wise one, (Bob bare) point me to your research on those manufactures that operate a vacuum switch as anything other than a a safety.

You may also want to flame the other posts on this site from numerous others that have too much draft and the same issue I have. Not sure where I I knocked any manufacturer, just asked questions.

DMKNLD, thank you for your effort and help.

The air inlet I speak of is behind the bottom of the burn pot (middle of the stove). I will have an adjustable damper fabricated today.. And all will be well.

 

[kappel15]

Can you feel the air inlet sucking in air if you hold your hand there, from the natural draft you have? The vacuum switch is strictly a safety device to detect vacuum in firebox. Normally the stove will have between .08 and .11 inches of water column in the firebox with the stove set on the high feed rate. Does the pot floor have no more then a dimes width of opening on the back side of the pot? kap

 

[tjnamtiw]

Wow... Thanks for the help.. No I'm not new to pellets.. Just new to quadrafire.

The door is cracked and the stove is still working.. Yes.. I I have that much natural draft that it still registers a vacuum, hence why I have so much air in the burn pot.

There is a huge difference between using a vacuum switch as a safety device and using it to control combustion air flow.

Please o wise one, (Bob bare) point me to your research on those manufactures that operate a vacuum switch as anything other than a a safety.

You may also want to flame the other posts on this site from numerous others that have too much draft and the same issue I have. Not sure where I I knocked any manufacturer, just asked questions.

DMKNLD, thank you for your effort and help.

The air inlet I speak of is behind the bottom of the burn pot (middle of the stove). I will have an adjustable damper fabricated today.. And all will be well.

Well, if you came here looking for help, you just kissed that help good by with your dissing of Bob Bare IMHO! As Bob said, you clearly didn't do your homework in researching Quads or looking for a manual. You can't tell the difference between a crack in the burn pot and the igniter slot. Modifying the stove to improve output is one thing but modifying it to hide the real problem is quite another.

Good luck!

 

[Electroau]

Wow.. Precious bunch.. And full of assumptions..

Perhaps comprehension lessons are in order..

I responded in kind.. Every stove I researched controls the combustion fan speed by the pellet feed rate.. I will humbly apologize the minute one of the "pellet professors" provide information otherwise. I believe the vacuum switch is purely a a safety.

My apologies to the two kind responders (both on here and private) for having a genuine troubleshooting / idea thread resort to egotistical outbursts.

And to be clear.. I was able to prove the "real problem" this morning by limiting the air intake slot.
And by real problem.. I mean quadrafire's assumption that all installations are the same and the exhaust draft is very similar.

I think the stove had some great features.. It would be so much better with a intake draft adjustment that would provide the flexibility to overcome any situation.

 

[BrotherBart]

Calm it down folks.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Quadrafire's 'assumption' was that the stove would be installed per the manual, meaning it would be terminated with 3 or 4" pipe according to the existing EVL and not into a tall 6" pipe or a masonry chimney. What you should have done is either run the correct diameter flex pipe up the existing flue or sealed it off at the top and terminated it with a 3" or possibly a 4" vent cap to reduce excessive draft. Also, you could check to see if the exhaust fan is the correct part number. There are a lot of after market fans that give higher output via more fan blades than original or a faster speed. Since it's a used stove, you have no idea what parts are original specs or 'souped up' parts that were added before you got it.

 

[xSpecBx]

They do have an exhaust damper which is an optional part from quadrafire that is suggested for stoves with a 25 ft or more long chimney or ones that are having draft issues.

I have the same stove and I believe quadrafire recommends a 3" or 4" stainless liner depending on the height of the chimney.

 

[tjnamtiw]

The LAST thing you would want to do is dampen the exhaust! Close it too much and you're pumping CO into your house! It sure isn't idiot proof.

 

[tjnamtiw]

Looking at the picture of the damper, the flapper inside is much smaller than the I.D. of the pipe so it would never completely seal off the exhaust. It might actually work! That's with 3" chimney liner though, not 6".

 

[Lake Girl]

It does however make me wonder if any stove manufacturer measures the vacuum and auto adjust the combustion motor speed..

Yes, I believe there are magnehelic guages and values that are in the installer's technical manual (or provided during training). So it would be safe to assume that they do set up the combustion motor based on their recommended installation and associated differential pressures this creates. Your installation seems to be way outside of those design parameters so shouldn't be surprising it is not functioning the way it should. The manufacturers' design these stove to reduce user error to avoid fire/CO hazards.

FYI, since it is not installed to manufacturer specs and is modified, you may have an issue with your insurance company.

 

[xSpecBx]

Looking at the picture of the damper, the flapper inside is much smaller than the I.D. of the pipe so it would never completely seal off the exhaust. It might actually work! That's with 3" chimney liner though, not 6".

Below is a thread for someone who had the damper installed by a quad tech because he was having draft issues. I'm assuming the OP has some kind of adapter on the stove to go to the 6" chimney since I believe the stove comes setup for a 3" liner. Having recently installed my CB 1200i, the manual calls for a 3" for chimney runs under 15' and 4" for chimney runs greater than that. I would think the problem the OP is having is because the liner is too big and is causing draft issues

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...to-adjust-airflow-on-quadrafire-1200i.114043/

 

[Electroau]

I think everyone gets confused with the 3" and 4" requirements. These are minimum sizes. Even the manual speaks to a 6" chimney.
The minimum requirements are too ensure enough airflow for combustion.

I think I'll install a different manufacturer (Breckwell) that has the damper I need (yes they speak to the different installations and the need for a damper in their manual).

Thanks to all for your input..

 

[Lake Girl]

xSpecBx good find!

Electroau, when reading that thread, make sure you mark the sweet spot for the damper (paint pen, nail polish, small chuck of foil tape). Might want to get a gauge (relatively cheap from threads I've seen - search box should help) and set WC for optimal burn.

 

[xSpecBx]

I kept it because I have a 28ft run up my chimney. I figured it might come in handy if I have problems in the future on my stove

 

[xSpecBx]

I think everyone gets confused with the 3" and 4" requirements. These are minimum sizes. Even the manual speaks to a 6" chimney.
The minimum requirements are too ensure enough airflow for combustion.

I think I'll install a different manufacturer (Breckwell) that has the damper I need (yes they speak to the different installations and the need for a damper in their manual).

Thanks to all for your input..

I think you should take a closer look at the installation manual. No where in the manual does it say 3" or 4" are minimum sizes.



Notice the words "only" in the chart. If you're below the line for your equivalent length of pipe and altitude then you use 4". If you're below the line you use 3".