Quadrafire Grand Voyager Cracked + Warped Steel

[slodo]

I purchased a Quadrafire Grand Voyager in 2018 and have been heating with it ever since. I was always happy with the insert and it had always put off a very good amount of heat. To my absolute horror, I just discovered this insane crack and warping of the steel-welded air channel at the front of the insert from the dog-house to almost the base of the firebox where the weld horizontal weld is located.

I have a temperature gauge on the front face of the insert, which is not going to give me accurate temperatures, but it can give me some guidance on where I'm at. I have never gotten it past the beginning of the 'GOOD BURN' zone, and normally spend the majority of time in the middle to top of the 'CREOSOTE' zone. I've never had a runaway burn, I've often had issues with fires leaving too much charcoal and unburned/brown ash at the end of a burn. This newly discovered crack seems to be the culprit.

I currently have a case open with Quadrafire manufacturer and they confirmed that the cracked piece is welded steel of the firebox and is obviously not a replaceable part. They now want pictures of the following:

• Baffle
• Manifold tubes
• Inside of main door (showing all corners)
• Firebox face (showing all corners and gasket)
• Wide shot of the front air channel area

I can only assume that their only goal is to prove that this was from constant over-firing, so that they can absolve themselves and void the warranty. I've got a 10-yr "limited lifetime" warranty on the firebox, which is what this should be covered under. I have attached pictures of the areas that they requested, as well as some others.

I'd love to hear feedback/perspective from anyone in the forum about any signs that this insert has been over-firing to the point that it was able to crack the steel on the air channel and dog-house and warp it this badly.

 

[begreen]

It doesn't look overfired. Has the fire been hard to control? How tall is the liner on this insert?

 

[slodo]

@begreen IIRC, it is a masonry chimney with 25-30ft OCS pre-insulated 6" SS liner. The fire has usually burned very well but not very hot. It was always being sucked out the chimney unless I nearly shut the air control down to almost closed. Never a single issue with burning too hot, always the opposite. I figured out how to burn the insert pretty well with choking it back and it usually worked well until the end of the last season or 2, which is when I assume that the crack started to form.

Last year it began getting harder to get the fire to stay hot and it stopped completely burning the logs to white ash. I would come down in the morning and discover that there were a pile of charcoal and brown/purple colored ash instead of just pure white ash. This was regardless of the wood type. I usually load it with white oak at night. The wood is several years seasoned and sufficiently dry at this point and I would load the box 65% full.

I usually burned with the ACC pushed in/opened all the way when going to bed and the air control closed down most of the way. It seemed to make little difference at the end of last season if I left the air control opened all the way and the ACC off; either resulted in incomplete burns of the load.

The burner tubes are orange/red underneath and somewhat more metallic on the top, but they are smooth and not warped and no cracks or anything. The baffle is 7yo but no actual holes or cracks yet. The baffle has some rough/bumpy surface area throughout and a slight indentation from my ash shovel in one spot, but is essentially consistent across the surface with no actual compromised areas . I did order a new one.

My primary concern is whether the baffle burner tubes or the baffle board would be considered compromised/overfired when the manufacturer inspects. I'm not even sure if they'd give me a new unit at this point, but with the warranty valid on the firebox for another 3yrs, I'd certainly hope this situation warrants it.

 

[begreen]

There is a good possibility that the draft is too strong. This can lead to most of the heat going up the liner with average temps at or over 1000º. If so, there may be obvious clues in or on the liner itself. Typically, this will show up as discoloring of the inner layer of the liner. The dealer or you can test this with a manometer (magnahelic) while a fire is burning. If the draft is excessive (≥ .1") then it could be that the high draft has turned the boost air manifold into a blowtorch, but not as noticeable because the heat is getting sucked up the chimney.

We had a Regency insert owner a couple years ago that had his insert wrecked due to this condition. Being an engineering sort, he instrumented his replacement insert, vowing to not let this happen again. It took putting a damper in the flue and restricting boost air in order to tame the effects of a very strong draft.

 

[slodo]

@begreen I believe the draft is too strong, but to lessen it and achieve a more effective burn, I had closed the air control lever which I believe had significantly reduced the draft and kept the fire primarily contained to the actual firebox.

My assumption that I was controlling this effectively is based on the fact that the flames would normally be sucked out the front of the stove just past the baffle manifold and not even remotely come near the glass door and never burned off the soot from the door. But when I lowered the air control lever, it appeared to reduce the draft and the flames would more elegantly burn and flow with a fluid-like motion inside of the firebox and wash the glass more effectively when it was loaded/hot.

I will have someone come out to do the annual inspection/cleaning, so hopefully they can validate your theory.

Given the crack in the pictures, do you feel that I am safe to continue burning, or am I in need of an immediate weld/patch or ultimately a full replacement?

 

[ohlongarmisle]

I purchased a Quadrafire Grand Voyager in 2018 and have been heating with it ever since. I was always happy with the insert and it had always put off a very good amount of heat. To my absolute horror, I just discovered this insane crack and warping of the steel-welded air channel at the front of the insert from the dog-house to almost the base of the firebox where the weld horizontal weld is located.

I have a temperature gauge on the front face of the insert, which is not going to give me accurate temperatures, but it can give me some guidance on where I'm at. I have never gotten it past the beginning of the 'GOOD BURN' zone, and normally spend the majority of time in the middle to top of the 'CREOSOTE' zone. I've never had a runaway burn, I've often had issues with fires leaving too much charcoal and unburned/brown ash at the end of a burn. This newly discovered crack seems to be the culprit.

I currently have a case open with Quadrafire manufacturer and they confirmed that the cracked piece is welded steel of the firebox and is obviously not a replaceable part. They now want pictures of the following:

• Baffle
• Manifold tubes
• Inside of main door (showing all corners)
• Firebox face (showing all corners and gasket)
• Wide shot of the front air channel area

I can only assume that their only goal is to prove that this was from constant over-firing, so that they can absolve themselves and void the warranty. I've got a 10-yr "limited lifetime" warranty on the firebox, which is what this should be covered under. I have attached pictures of the areas that they requested, as well as some others.

I'd love to hear feedback/perspective from anyone in the forum about any signs that this insert has been over-firing to the point that it was able to crack the steel on the air channel and dog-house and warp it this badly.

I had the identical problem,Quadrafire replaced the stove in its entirety, but I lost faith in Quad,I sold the new one to a weekend burner I work with, runs fine,i'm sold on Blaze King and that's what I now run,best of luck to you.

 

[begreen]

@begreen I believe the draft is too strong, but to lessen it and achieve a more effective burn, I had closed the air control lever which I believe had significantly reduced the draft and kept the fire primarily contained to the actual firebox.

My assumption that I was controlling this effectively is based on the fact that the flames would normally be sucked out the front of the stove just past the baffle manifold and not even remotely come near the glass door and never burned off the soot from the door. But when I lowered the air control lever, it appeared to reduce the draft and the flames would more elegantly burn and flow with a fluid-like motion inside of the firebox and wash the glass more effectively when it was loaded/hot.

I will have someone come out to do the annual inspection/cleaning, so hopefully they can validate your theory.

Given the crack in the pictures, do you feel that I am safe to continue burning, or am I in need of an immediate weld/patch or ultimately a full replacement?

I suspect that the air control regulates the airwash air and that the boost air may be unregulated. Most secondary burn stoves need the air reduced to optimize combustion. But for that to work well, the fire needs to stay resident in the firebox longer. That's hard to acheive when too strong draft is sucking all the heat up the flue. This is much easier to see and address with a free-standing stove. Inserts present more challenges.

 

[Highbeam]

And that strong draft doesn't just suck heat out of the firebox, it sucks fresh air in just as hard. That blast of combustion air is how a blast furnace works to make a really hot spot even if the overall stove isn't that hot.

A heat crack down low in the firebox seems to not be from high temperatures but from a localized blast furnace effect.

 

[begreen]

^Exactly right^ In freestanding cast iron stoves we see this happen when the ash pan door is left open or is leaky. It often shows up as a crack in the base of the stove around the ash grate.

 

[slodo]

I had the identical problem,Quadrafire replaced the stove in its entirety, but I lost faith in Quad,I sold the new one to a weekend burner I work with, runs fine,i'm sold on Blaze King and that's what I now run,best of luck to you.

This is very hopeful news.

Out of curiosity, when did this happen and what model did you own? Was it the same type of crack/location? How did they handle the warranty process? I certainly appreciate any advice you can give on navigating this warranty process.

 

[begreen]

This is very hopeful news.

Out of curiosity, when did this happen and what model did you own? Was it the same type of crack/location? How did they handle the warranty process? I certainly appreciate any advice you can give on navigating this warranty process.

The challenge here is that this insert has not been sold for 5 years. They may not have any to replace it with. Note that even if replaced, the draft issue can still cause a problem with the best of stoves until corrected. Cat stoves for example, are often quite specific about draft requirements.

 

[slodo]

The challenge here is that this insert has not been sold for 5 years. They may not have any to replace it with. Note that even if replaced, the draft issue can still cause a problem with the best of stoves until corrected. Cat stoves for example, are often quite specific about draft requirements.

My hope would be that they replace it with the latest similar model that they manufacture (Expedition II), or at least reimburse me for the cost of the install/replacement insert.

Do you think that this is even repairable with a weld, or is it basically destroyed for all intensive purposes? If it's destroyed and cannot be repaired, would a new insert without the draft control that this model has even be worth installing? Seems like all inserts are now EPA regulated and do not allow the burn control for selected drafting anymore.

Would a Blaze King Sirocco/Ashford be better suited as a replacement insert for this issue?

 

[begreen]

A temporary fix could be to insert some short bolts into the boost air holes but that does not address the too strong draft.

 

[slodo]

A temporary fix could be to insert some short bolts into the boost air holes but that does not address the too strong draft.

Are you basically thinking to use the existing crack as the replacement boost air supply and choke off the actual air holes as the workaround?

 

[begreen]

It's just to buy time. The damage is already done. In cases of high draft, often no boost air is needed. However, with no boost air, starting will be a bit less convenient due to E/W loading of the firewood. A workaround is to do top down starts.

 

[slodo]

Ironically, my wife had chimed in on Halloween night (when it was extremely cool and no still no fires) to remind me that her subrogation department has a fire expert and that we should contact him with the pictures to get their take on the matter. I have sent the pictures of the cracks and the other pictures that Quadrafire requested to see what his take is. Will post back their response.

In the meantime, I did ask the stove shop if I could continue to use the stove as-is, seeing as how the cracks only represent an expanded area from where the boost air was being sourced anyhow, and they said that it was absolutely out of the question and that the stove can no longer be used safely. So it seems that I will not likely be receiving some type of weld/patch kit. Very frustrated at this point, because none of the replacement models have an air-control lever, which means any new insert will be subject to the highest level of draft.

Getting pretty cold and irritated waiting on the manufacturer. Hopefully I will have their initial response/reaction in the next 24hrs.

 

[slodo]

11/7: Inspector update

We had the fire subrogation expert inspect the stove and he concluded that this was clearly a defective ACC and without any other signs of over-firing and the location of the cracked secondary air channel, this should be fully replaced by Quadrafire. He inquired about any issues we've had with the ACC and I actually discovered emails I had forgotten about between myself and the dealer immediately after purchase where I pointed out that the ACC was not working as expected and blowing out and smoldering the fire, as well as burning them too quickly in the front/middle and leaving unburnt coals on the back and sides.

11/10: Dealer update

I have contacted the dealer several times. They initially put the claim in through direct email to the claims inbox at the manufacturer, who responded same day with their initial response that the damaged piece could not be replaced with parts and that they would need additional photos of the entire unit to continue the claim process. The dealer has not been aggressive enough, but after informing them of the fire inspector we had looking at the unit they have proceeded to pick this claim back up. The responded to my call yesterday and said that they are engaging with their rep at the manufacturer to determine why the claims department will no longer respond to the claim or move forward.

11/11: Stove update

Temperatures have gotten too cold at this point, so I finally broke down and fired up the unit. It burns pretty much as I have always experienced, and I threw an additional smoke-detector and CO-detector in the living room for peace of mind.

My biggest concern at this point is that the new Expedition II model that QF would likely use to replace it with under warranty is just not going to be a good burner for a 30ft chimney and a house on top of a hill with wind from every angle. If the QF Voyageur Grand cracked at some point between seasons 4-6 due to the drafting, I see no reason why the Expedition II with its single-rate burn wouldn't do the same thing, only faster.

 

[begreen]

This can happen to any insert but usually it's human error to not shut down the air. Automatic air controls make the problem less transparent. One is depending on the timer to close off the startup (boost) air after 10 minutes.

Do you always pull the startup air control out after pushing it in? If the ACC failed to close off the boost air, then that would cause the burnout and cracking. It's like having a forge under the fire. When combined with strong draft, the insert must have been burning intensely. Were burntimes quite short?

 

[slodo]

11/11 Dealer Update:

Finally some positive movement on this. The dealer just reached out and told me that they are awaiting final confirmation details from the manufacturer, but said that they would like to schedule a chimney inspection for a new install. It seems that Quadrafire will pay to replace with the latest equivalent model and the installation etc 😁

 

[slodo]

This can happen to any insert but usually it's human error to not shut down the air. Automatic air controls make the problem less transparent. One is depending on the timer to close off the startup (boost) air after 10 minutes.

Do you always pull the startup air control out after pushing it in? If the ACC failed to close off the boost air, then that would cause the burnout and cracking. It's like having a forge under the fire. When combined with strong draft, the insert must have been burning intensely. Were burntimes quite short?

I do sometimes push the ACC all the way in, but that is different then pushing in and pulling out. The Grand Voyageur has (2) functions for the ACC:

1. Push in/pull out - activates the front air channel on a ~20min timer
2. Push in/leave in - activates the rear air channel

I only ever push all the way in to burn red oak, especially when I pack the stove for an overnight burn. There is no way to burn the oak without smoldering it into charcoal without pushing the ACC and activating the rear air.

My biggest fear at this point is that the Expedition II will not allow me to get the stove hot enough to burn the oak/locust wood because of how strong the draft is and the inability to slow down the supply going into the firebox. In the current insert, I could not achieve hot and long burn times without shutting down the burn-rate to nearly the bottom. If I kept it all the way open, that was actually contradictory to achieving high BTU and it would burn through the entire fire in an hour or 2, tops. The only way to get hot fires in my insert was to reload and allow it to catch for a bit and then turn the burn rate almost all the way down.

Does this sound like a reasonable concern that the dealer will understand?

 

[begreen]

It's normal to have to close the air near or all the way down once the fire is going strong. The reduction of primary air allows the vacuum of the draft pull air through the secondary tubes. In milder weather our stove usually runs with the air about 85-90% closed. In cold weather, when draft increases, I often run it with the air control all the way closed. Of course, it doesn't actually close all the way. These stoves are designed not to smolder so some air is admitted.