Question on crumbling refractory cement on a Dutchwest 2479

[tradergordo]

You hit the nail on the head, this stove was MADE to run 24/7. As long as you have a continuous, thick red hot coal bed, you are good. Unfortunately in milder temps you are almost never good. I'll be less cranky when I'm burning 24/7 again. But like you said, why would anyone choose this model when there are others that work well anytime, without forcing you to futz around with the coals all the time? At this point, I'd be ecstatic if I could burn clean 30 minutes after starting a new fire. I just don't see how or why this design has any particular advantage.

Trader no wonder you waited so long to light your first fire. Sounds like this type of stove would only work well in 24/7 burning... needing a constant coal bed. Hard to light a once a day chill chaser in the shoulder season.

Your standard cat or non cat you can light a top down fire in a stone cold stove close the door and be burning clean in less than 30min.

The fact that you need to burn for a couple of hours and get a 2" coal bed for this type of stove to burn clean is IMO a major design flaw.

My 2 cents....

 

[webbie]

Based on traders input, let me make a couple guesses.

The EB technology is simply a refined downdraft method of burning - it has been around in one form or another for hundreds of years, with the Riteway and other models bringing it back in the 1970's.

Wood gasifiers like the TARM 2000 use similar technology, but since it is fan forced and on "full" all of the time, the problems with various burn rates and initial heating up do not occur....that is, most people use these central heaters 24/7.

OK, so the first real space heater use of this (other than some lesser known models) was the Resolute Acclaim - about 1988. This EB system worked pretty well for the following reason. The firebox was small, and the grate was heavily sloped from the front to the rear of the stove. This meant that a relatively small amount of hot coals would fully "charge" the downdraft system and get it working. With that model, it may have taken two hours or less to get it going EB from a cold start, and there was no problem at all keeping it going...again, because of the concentrated coals which always built up against the rear.

Now we have models using similar technology that have vastly larger fire boxes and flat grates and/or MUCH larger areas of coals which must be built up in order to have constant EB.

Moral of particular story may be that EB stoves need to be carefully sized and may be more for the full time wood burner than for the evening and weekend crowd.

Just a guess, of course. Other (updraft) non-cats are built around the basic idea that heat rises, therefore it makes sense they will light off much sooner. VC would not make an updraft stove like this mostly because they always want to offer top loading (VC line) - That virtually does away with any possibility of using the upper part of the stove for secondary combustion.

All my guesses, of course.

 

[tradergordo]

Elk - not sure what "the post" refers to, but you sound like you got some new info but this is a quote you posted last winter, and I'm pretty sure the VC guy was not directing his comments at me or BurningisLove, and he really didn't offer ANY insight into the performance problems we've been discussing here.

I asked Vc to look at the post and here is there response to Trader


"Vermont Casting/DutchWest Stoves has thousands of Everburn units in the field with very few warranty issues. It does sound like your stove is burning hot. I would suggest conducting the “dollar bill” test on the door and ash door gaskets. Pinch a dollar bill between the door and the gasket, close the door completely and pull the dollar bill out. The dollar bill should resist being pulled out but come out without tearing. Try this every few inches all the way around each of the doors. If you find lose gasket seals the door should be adjusted. You can do this by adjusting the handle pawl or the hinge pins or both. If you are not comfortable adjusting the doors call your dealer and have him/her adjust the doors. It is very unlikely that the gasketed joint assembly found on Everburn units is leaking. Vermont Castings leak test 100% of their stoves at final assemble. Another place to look would be the primary flap. Open both doors and reach a finger up between the primary air manifold and the inside of the front of the stove. Open and close the primary air lever. You will feel the flap opening and closing. When the flap is closed it should lie flat on the manifold with no gaps. It is possible for a piece of debris to keep it from closing completely. Don’t hesitate to call the customer service number for help. Vermont Castings is very concerned about satisfaction of their customers.

Second response to the poster burning his stove in his basement

"first thing that jumps out in the first email is the homeowner
has a Dutchwest Non-cat Large that he is using to heat a 1200 sq ft
house from the basement....way over-sized as far as stove to volume to
heat and as a result causing all kinds of over-firing...the refractory
is totally covered under warranty, so get it turned in and replaced...dt "

 

[tradergordo]

I think these are good insights. But you CAN do top loading and burn tubes on top, the Isle Royale (quadrafire) does this, a friend of mine has that stove. And I still fail to see why the EB design is good for anyone including a full time burner when other designs achive clean burn without the fuss (from what I read anyway, one day I'd love to see this firsthand).

But non-the-less since I'm such a cheap-skate, I know I'm not going to get another stove. So I'll do whatever the heck it takes to make this stove work for me (unless someone offers to buy it off me for what I paid which isn't going to happen). Pretty soon you'll see my new and improved, hope I don't burn the house down, first ever, catalytic non-cat Dutchwest I also like the idea of adding a modified sloping to the burnchamber coal catcher (like a triangular hunk of metal or firebrick). Just got a new 175 Amp MIG welder, time to get busy. Haha.

Based on traders input, let me make a couple guesses.

The EB technology is simply a refined downdraft method of burning - it has been around in one form or another for hundreds of years, with the Riteway and other models bringing it back in the 1970's.

Wood gasifiers like the TARM 2000 use similar technology, but since it is fan forced and on "full" all of the time, the problems with various burn rates and initial heating up do not occur....that is, most people use these central heaters 24/7.

OK, so the first real space heater use of this (other than some lesser known models) was the Resolute Acclaim - about 1988. This EB system worked pretty well for the following reason. The firebox was small, and the grate was heavily sloped from the front to the rear of the stove. This meant that a relatively small amount of hot coals would fully "charge" the downdraft system and get it working. With that model, it may have taken two hours or less to get it going EB from a cold start, and there was no problem at all keeping it going...again, because of the concentrated coals which always built up against the rear.

Now we have models using similar technology that have vastly larger fire boxes and flat grates and/or MUCH larger areas of coals which must be built up in order to have constant EB.

Moral of particular story may be that EB stoves need to be carefully sized and may be more for the full time wood burner than for the evening and weekend crowd.

Just a guess, of course. Other (updraft) non-cats are built around the basic idea that heat rises, therefore it makes sense they will light off much sooner. VC would not make an updraft stove like this mostly because they always want to offer top loading (VC line) - That virtually does away with any possibility of using the upper part of the stove for secondary combustion.

All my guesses, of course.

 

[elkimmeg]

I may have encourage some to purchase VC products but always stuck to the cat models the ones I burn and have experience using I have never burnt the Everburn stoves .If Vc wants to get on to me to run it threw the paces I would be honest and happy to do so and report here my experiences Note there are stove I will not recommend VC makes this everburn is not only a Vc product but the same burn technology in the Lopi Leyden and Harman oakwood.

 

[begreen]

Is the refractory placement and shielding different in the Leyden or Oakwood?

 

[TMonter]

I am leaning towards up grading to a “better” stove. I don’t want to go through this again. I’m thinking about a Quadra Fire Isle Royale.

If you do lean towards the Quad Larry, I have nothing but good to say about them and their customer service. I had a stress crack in a secondary manifold of my 3100i and the stove was replaced three weeks later, no questions asked (other than taking the serial number sticker off).

I like Quad's simple designs, with a no-nonsense approach to combustion. I also like the fact that the stove can be disassembled and cleaned in less than 20 minutes with minimal tools.

 

[elkimmeg]

Well coaster many here have degree higher than mine BS in History minor in earth Science MS education.
But world experience is hard to equate I happen to feel I am good at solving problems and can think outside the box when not regulated by codes
As a Code official I feel limited at time to really voice opinions but hold a rigid line. Part of that is being consistent. One can not enforce a code one day and ignore it the next.

My stoves are used I did not opperate them for much their existences I have a 1988 Interpid (cat) that interior refractory package was never replaced no warped plates, or any thing like these photos indicate in usage. The other stove is a 1999 Cat encore again the interior refractory package looks very good again nothing like the photos here. After experiencing the Intrepid and my first cat my only impression was whow .. I too was told to stay away from Cat stoves and I believed the retailer. Too hard to opperate expensive replacement requires extra operations
cat needs cleaning and on and on. So one day during an inspection of a pellet stove here in a garage sits the Cat intrepid taken out of service The lady that owned ask me if I knew anyone that could use it So I took it. A few gaskets some refractory cement and time to fire it off. I was real concerned at first because it looked so small I gave away my plate steel stove to a needy family No way was this going to heat this area I made a mistake This chimney is a completely exterior block chimney and being told how draft sensitive cat stoves are Boy did I make a mistake
Naturally I read the manual as a guide for operations I fired it up It took a bit more kindling that my other stove but I got it going. I fed in some splits then some more.

Hey this is not so bad ,now will it throw some heat,I'm freezing in here The stove top temps climbed and I reached 500 then 600 I started cutting back air All the prior stoves need constant adjustment damper disengage the damper play with the air. constantly the damper caused the fire to almost go out so open it up again constant tinkering and monitoring.
That how every stove operated up till now with this stove

Well back to the Intrepid time to engage the cat. For once the stove top heat did not drop, it stayed constant the fire went down except for flickers but it glowed red an hour went by the same 550 stove top and I not touched the controls another hour the same 5 hours later it is still above 500 degrees the room temp a blamy 74, Golly gee this thing works I wondrr what it will do really loader How about 6 hours over 500 degrees and 7 hours above 400 8 hours below that and may need re kindling to revive it.l. I looking at the room thermometer and I in total disbelief
This must be some fluke. It turned out to be just the fluke that started to make me wonder. What if I could replace my 3 year Old Resolute Acclaim with a Cat Encore?

Then I started wondering why so much negativity towards Cat combustors. This was by far the easiest stove I ever operated. What is so hard engaging a damper no different that my prior stoves At first I wondered if the cat combustor was working I noticed a huge difference in the smoke volume or lack of smoke exiting my chimney it must be working. But this is the original Cat date stamped 1987 Still intact I ordered the stove combustor replacement a warping $59 Not the hundreds I was told it would cost Well it looked different more like a scrungy and it was not as thick. Then I wondered about the $150 service call to replace it. I remover the two phillips screws and replaced it in 5 minutes. Actually probably easier than replacing light bulbs.

Its been 3 years using this combustor and I have no complaints. Last Sunday watching the Colts Pats game I had to open 3 windiws I got the stove going and it heated the room that much I have watched 3 supper bowls in tee shirts This by far is the easiest stove to opperate I've ever experienced It still amazes me that little stove can preforms like it has I have made no further replacements say a gasket or two No warped internal parts the refractory package is good. It will be running again tonight.

I did find a steal of a buy on a used Encore $500 only used two seasons. sold my Resolute Acclaim and might have even pocked some money in the swap. The Encore too delivered that same results but more heat and longer burning. 8 hours is a reality Just as easy to run no more futzing and dutzing like all prior stoves. About as close to set and forget as it gets.

I'm not saying these stoves one size fits all. My approach is not by accident. All wood is cut split and seasoned 2 years prior to usage. I'm not suffering using the " seasoned wood" delivered by the local wood man. or wondering if the tree cut 6 months ago will be dry enough. I'm not suffering from rookie mistakes and also set realistic expectations.
I look at it this way. My thermostat is set at 64 degrees. It is my job to provide heat without the furnace from kicking on. All other prior stoves took constant attention to achieve that but failed once the outdoor temps reached 10 or below that furnace would cycle. But again that is not bad. That was the limits of realistic goals and even then the furnace still had long periods of cycling between ignition. My second floor bedrooms are cooler I use a few extra blankets or two or the upstairs zone kicks in at 62. using small box fans I can get my bedroom up to 68 before I close the door for the night. this Encore was able to actually raise the then of that heating zone when the temps fell below 0 last winter. Never was I able to do that before

I built this home planning. to use wood stove. Planned a masive field stone center chimney with a separate 8/8 flue I knew all the granite stone would absorb heat and store it, releasing it for hours after the fire died down I figure in the 32 years here, wood heat has saved using close to 30,000 gal of oil

 

[tradergordo]

As another point of reference. I was discussing this issue with my friend yesterday, the guy I previously mentioned with the cheap-o steel box Drollet. This is what he said:

"Just for your reference, my stove typically has no visual smoke from the pipe within 10 minutes from a cold start. But for that I need smaller splits. If it has a little heat in it ( a few red embers here and there) Large splits can reach the same smoke free burn in under 10 minutes. Sometimes, it is smoke free within 1 minute. Depends on the wood. I can achieve secondary burn in 5-10 minutes from cold if I use a mix of wood sizes. I love it's simple operation. "

"My stove burns without visible smoke over a wide range of conditions. And the secondary burn tubes don't need to have flame shooting out of them to have smoke free burning. My dad clamps his stove down too tight all the time and it smokes horribly. There are often big white clouds drifting through his yard and you can really smell it. I would say that 97% of the time you can neither see smoke nor smell smoke from my stove when you are outside. If you smell smoke in my yard, it is usually from one of the neighbors. "

Now if a cheap-o steel box (with lifetime warranty I might add) can achieve these results with such simple operation, producing big heat all the while, then why should anyone favor the so called "Cadillac" which requires much more babying, futzing with coals, and still doesn't produce clean burns anywhere near as often? Because it looks better?

 

[BrotherBart]

So, you see yourself in my comments? I wonder why?

I have seen myself before in comments on gordo's website:

"The total cheapskate could buy the wood stove Lowe's sells (The Englander) which also has good EPA ratings but it's kind of ugly looking and has no side loading. Based on what was reported on fatwallet.com, they clearance these up to 75% off starting in February so some real bargains can be had. But if you pay full price its about the same cost as the stove I bought and not nearly as nice."

:coolsmirk:

 

[begreen]

closing thread, it's now a ramble.