Questions on new installation

[Peterfield]

Finally decided to take the plunge and I'm looking at various options. I presently augment FHW oil system with a Jotul No. 3 wood stove (42,000 max btu) in my living room installed in a center chimney fireplace. I have a few questions based on conflicting info received from stores.

1. Is it necessary to run stove pipe all the way to the top of the chimney flue (clay tiled) and cap it? When the wood stove was installed, about 10 feet of 6" flexible pipe was installed but it doesn't reach the top of the flue.

2. Do I need to purchase an insert or can a free-standing stove work? The fireplace dimensions are 42" wide in front and 33" wide in rear, 34.5" high, hearth depth is 24" from back to fireplace facing and another 15" of brick from there to wood floor. Hearth is not raised. I was told a free- standing stove had to be completely out of the fireplace so rear can be accessed for cleaning but a few Harman owners say they don't access the rear ports until heating season is over.

3. If a 42,000 btu wood stove is ok now, am I looking for equivalent output from a pellet stove or are they more effective heaters and less btu capacity is ok?

With these dimensions, what do you think my choices might be. I know that if I go free-standing, I need enough clearance to open the top lid to add pellets. Wife loves the look of a "classic stove" with legs but thought the Accentra insert was "ok".

Any advice appreciated. Thanks.

 

[alternativeheat]

Finally decided to take the plunge and I'm looking at various options. I presently augment FHW oil system with a Jotul No. 3 wood stove (42,000 max btu) in my living room installed in a center chimney fireplace. I have a few questions based on conflicting info received from stores.

1. Is it necessary to run stove pipe all the way to the top of the chimney flue (clay tiled) and cap it? When the wood stove was installed, about 10 feet of 6" flexible pipe was installed but it doesn't reach the top of the flue.

2. Do I need to purchase an insert or can a free-standing stove work? The fireplace dimensions are 42" wide in front and 33" wide in rear, 34.5" high, hearth depth is 24" from back to fireplace facing and another 15" of brick from there to wood floor. Hearth is not raised. I was told a free- standing stove had to be completely out of the fireplace so rear can be accessed for cleaning but a few Harman owners say they don't access the rear ports until heating season is over.

3. If a 42,000 btu wood stove is ok now, am I looking for equivalent output from a pellet stove or are they more effective heaters and less btu capacity is ok?

With these dimensions, what do you think my choices might be. I know that if I go free-standing, I need enough clearance to open the top lid to add pellets. Wife loves the look of a "classic stove" with legs but thought the Accentra insert was "ok".

Any advice appreciated. Thanks.

At the Harman web site you can download the owner/install manual for most any of their stoves. I did that for the 52i insert and the P61a free standing before I bought. In the manual it shows preferred flue pipe install diagrams and clearances etc. I just read them at my computer in PDF. We ended up going with the P61 for its combo radiant and convection heat and added BTU capability. I supplemented for years and heated the whole house if the temp didn't drop too low ( below about 12deg F) with a home built coal stove with no convection blower, so we were used to that radiant heat. The Harman cast stoves and inserts down.t throw a lot of radiant heat, in fact very little. The convection blower does the work. The P61, incidentally, heats the whole house. The oil heat never came on except on stove cleaning days.

Anyway, Harman shows both installs you are asking about, a short flex into an existing liner or a stainless liner to the top of the chimney. My chimney was not lined already so it made the choice simple, FWIW ! Also around here, the metal to the top of the chimney will always meet code by any inspector ( insurance , building, fire, who ever decides to look in there lol.)..

BTU ratings on pellets stoves are input BTU, so you might want to look a little larger if you think your house needs 42000 output BTU. Center instal is usually a good thing though. What is the sq ft you are trying to heat ? Are you sticking with the supplemental heat plan or do want to try and heat it all ?

 

[Peterfield]

I would like to heat it all (Cape-style house) but I have to be careful to occasionally run the oil heat zone to put hot water through the pipes in the main living area zone because a section of pipe is close to the outer wall and it can freeze if it is 5 degrees or less and windy.

The main living area on the first floor consists of LR, DR, KIT and breakfast room totaling 793 sq. ft. and has an oil heat zone. Off the main living area is an ell (no basement underneath) w/2 BD's and a Bathroom totaling 480 sq. ft. and has a separate oil heat zone I can use when needed. Upstairs is the master bedroom and bathroom, totaling 624 sq. ft. and there is no alternative heat option. Presently, the wood stove heat rising to that area keeps it at about 60 degrees in the winter but my thought is the steady heat output of a pellet stove will do much better than the ebbing of the wood stove heat output by morning. The 1/2 finished basement is 624 sq ft. with no oil heat coverage but the residual heat of the oil boiler keeps it comfortable excepting the coldest days. No one uses the area now except when doing laundry so I can augment that area with a space heater if needed. Summarizing, the main living area of the house on the first floor, including the ell, is 1273 sq ft.

I am leaning toward selling the wood stove with the flexible pipe included and then getting the chimney kit and having it run to the top and capped.

Again, any info appreciated.

Paul

 

[alternativeheat]

I would like to heat it all (Cape-style house) but I have to be careful to occasionally run the oil heat zone to put hot water through the pipes in the main living area zone because a section of pipe is close to the outer wall and it can freeze if it is 5 degrees or less and windy.

The main living area on the first floor consists of LR, DR, KIT and breakfast room totaling 793 sq. ft. and has an oil heat zone. Off the main living area is an ell (no basement underneath) w/2 BD's and a Bathroom totaling 480 sq. ft. and has a separate oil heat zone I can use when needed. Upstairs is the master bedroom and bathroom, totaling 624 sq. ft. and there is no alternative heat option. Presently, the wood stove heat rising to that area keeps it at about 60 degrees in the winter but my thought is the steady heat output of a pellet stove will do much better than the ebbing of the wood stove heat output by morning. The 1/2 finished basement is 624 sq ft. with no oil heat coverage but the residual heat of the oil boiler keeps it comfortable excepting the coldest days. No one uses the area now except when doing laundry so I can augment that area with a space heater if needed. Summarizing, the main living area of the house on the first floor, including the ell, is 1273 sq ft.

I am leaning toward selling the wood stove with the flexible pipe included and then getting the chimney kit and having it run to the top and capped.

Again, any info appreciated.

Paul

2600 sq ft almost . Is it super insulated or so so ? I see the out area on the first floor with the two bedrooms and a bath being cool. I say that without seeing the layout though. Our house has an extended kitchen and it's always been the coolest spot, also no basement under there but it's very well insulated. The P61 on high convection will heat it. But then we have a studio room off the dining room downstairs as well and that gets heated fine. It just depends on air flow. Upstairs is never an issue as long as I blow that convection enough. It goes right up the stairway.

The heating system at our house has antifreeze in it. That ends that problem ! We have an added apartment on the house though, on it's own zone. Actually that's why the heating system has antifreeze in it. in case we have no tenant at some point and shut the heat down over there. I never even thought of a pellet boiler till after the P61 was in but would have been ideal for us. Some of the guys here have them rigged right along side the oil boiler, if something goes south the oil fires up and takes over. But then we like a stove in the living room, so everything is a compromise. I'm not sure how the 52i would have done, they don't radiate any heat but blow convection like a hurricane. 52000 btu, the P61 obviously is more at 61000.

 

[Peterfield]

I would say so-so insulated and I figured needing to heat about 1600 sq. Ft as the basement is fine with heat coming off the boiler and our bedroom will benefit from heat rising from the main floor and there are cold air returns to help with this. Forgot about the anti-freeze option and that would mean I could heat the house entirely with a pellet stove and hardly ever need an oil heat boost. That said, can one use a freestanding stove if it is being installed in a center chimney or is an insert the smart play? My concern is even with the stove half in and half out of the chimney hearth, the lid might not open far enough to fill the hopper easily.

Paul

2600 sq ft almost . Is it super insulated or so so ? I see the out area on the first floor with the two bedrooms and a bath being cool. I say that without seeing the layout though. Our house has an extended kitchen and it's always been the coolest spot, also no basement under there but it's very well insulated. The P61 on high convection will heat it. But then we have a studio room off the dining room downstairs as well and that gets heated fine. It just depends on air flow. Upstairs is never an issue as long as I blow that convection enough. It goes right up the stairway.

The heating system at our house has antifreeze in it. That ends that problem ! We have an added apartment on the house though, on it's own zone. Actually that's why the heating system has antifreeze in it. in case we have no tenant at some point and shut the heat down over there.

 

[kennyp2339]

You definitely need to do your homework here, it seems a little complicated unless it is possible to make the fireplace opening taller. One thing is certain though, you will need to run a liner the whole length of the chimney, you need to consider insulating or making a block off plate for the chimney (so that heat doesn't go up the flu) Also in the dead of winter I run my baseboard hot water for 5 - 10 min twice a day. The whole point for using wood heat for me is to save money and not wreck my house with frozen pipes. Oh and good luck, take some pics of your install.

 

[alternativeheat]

I would say so-so insulated and I figured needing to heat about 1600 sq. Ft as the basement is fine with heat coming off the boiler and our bedroom will benefit from heat rising from the main floor and there are cold air returns to help with this. Forgot about the anti-freeze option and that would mean I could heat the house entirely with a pellet stove and hardly ever need an oil heat boost. That said, can one use a freestanding stove if it is being installed in a center chimney or is an insert the smart play? My concern is even with the stove half in and half out of the chimney hearth, the lid might not open far enough to fill the hopper easily.

Paul

Our P61 is all the way out on the hearth. I had a hearth extension on there for 30 years with the coal stove, it's still there with the P61 on top of it ( just a black metal plate). Our hearth is flush not raised. I ran a 1 ft horizontal vent off the back of the stove into the fireplace to a T, then went up 23 ft to the chimney top. 4" vent, never a problem with draft. I capped the chimney top and put a topper lid on the pipe, insulated the smoke shelf and that's that. Putting the stove half in was not an option for me as the fireplace was too low anyway. This way I have O trouble removing the side panels and getting to the back of the stove to service it.

With an insert you have to pull the insert to service it. Harman helps a bit by having it on rails. But I'm getting older now, I want service to be simple. Everything but looks pointed at the P61 ( not that it is bad looking just the 52i is a beauty). The P61 had reserve heating capacity for our house and we never cracked the top output of it last winter. It's capable of burning 4 bags of pellets a day and we never went over 2.75 ( well I think one day I hit three bags but who is really counting, the house was warm) and the heat never came on either. Over the winter we averaged 2 bags per day considering using less in the shoulder season.

Minus your basement your house is the same size as mine give or take about 90 sq ft.

 

[Mt Bob]

I agree with alternativeheat,freestanding better choice,p61 has excellent reputation.Some stoves require full liner,some don't,they have a better combustion blower setup,but most will run more efficient with a full liner.Several things to consider--an outside air kit,and the fact you will never get huge quick heat out of a pellet stove.It is a space heater,slow and steady wins.Air leaks are your enemy,as are poor or too many windows.Heating the whole house is very possible,many people here do it.(I do untill about -20 and wind).Also be aware stoves do make noise,and some are very noisy.Also you can get a freeze protection setup for your other heat,or buy a cheap programmable t-stat and have it come on a few times a day,in case you forget.Another thing you prob. were gaining heat from chimney,being in center,and that will not happen with the pellet stove.Just some thoughts.

 

[Peterfield]

I really appreciate all the information and it helps a lot. Need to do some more research and after all that, see which one my wife likes better.

 

[alternativeheat]

I really appreciate all the information and it helps a lot. Need to do

I really appreciate all the information and it helps a lot. Need to do some more research and after all that, see which one my wife likes better.

Wives, those are the ones that buy a car based on color, oh but it's purple my favorite color ! Of course its a purple Nash Rambler but who cares if its 55 years old with a flat head six and biased ply tires, it's purple. I took along She Who Must Be Obeyed when initially looking at stoves. She loved the 52i but over time she was convinced it really wasn't the most sensible choice for us ( if it radiated some of it's heat it would have been perfect but still more work to clean). I think it would have heated the house but differently than the P61 does and required more difficult install as well as cleanings etc. Then it was the fake antler Harman calls a log set. She had to have those. Well that hasn't happened yet and I have heard no more about it ( just get her to write the checks as you move along on this, the spending spree ends quickly when it's not for new jewelry or cloths or some dress she saw and doesn't need).. But I'll tell you what, she parked her rather shapely butt next to that P61 with it's radiant heat all winter long knitting, painting her finger nails and reading her bible there ! I certainly knew where to find her when it was 2 deg F outside with a howling NW wind at night and about 76 in that living room..

As for you, based on your wifes desires of a traditional stove with legs, that points to the XXV if looking at Harman stoves. It pushes a lot of heat by convection, very little radiant heat. Less reliable than the P series ( small things), a little more work to clean than the P series. But perhaps the quietest stove on the market. It's very nice looking. I looked at them but actually my wife didn't care for it , don't know why she didn't say.

 

[Peterfield]

You bring up a great point about radiant heat. That is one of the things that had held me back a bit about switching and sounds like the P61 may negate that concern. My lovely bride has always been initially negative about newer technology coming into the house. Didn't want cordless phones, satellite TV and God forbid, no cell phone. Well, my son and I self-installed the satellite system while she was away on a business trip and she loved it immediately. A few years ago I finally convinced her to try a cell phone and just last year she informed me she "had to have" the iPhone 5s.

Based on what I've learned here, I know I should run the venting to the top of the chimney and cap it and probably run an OAK up the same flue as some of you have done. I also am better off with a little more BTU capacity than I think I need, particularly with the winter we just went through in the northeast. Harman stoves are highly recommended here and by my friends that have them but not all of you are using a Harman so while I have visited a couple of Harman dealers I also have my eyes open for other options while exploring the world of pellet stoves.

Paul

 

[alternativeheat]

You bring up a great point about radiant heat. That is one of the things that had held me back a bit about switching and sounds like the P61 may negate that concern. My lovely bride has always been initially negative about newer technology coming into the house. Didn't want cordless phones, satellite TV and God forbid, no cell phone. Well, my son and I self-installed the satellite system while she was away on a business trip and she loved it immediately. A few years ago I finally convinced her to try a cell phone and just last year she informed me she "had to have" the iPhone 5s.

Based on what I've learned here, I know I should run the venting to the top of the chimney and cap it and probably run an OAK up the same flue as some of you have done. I also am better off with a little more BTU capacity than I think I need, particularly with the winter we just went through in the northeast. Harman stoves are highly recommended here and by my friends that have them but not all if you are using a Harman so while I have visited a couple of Harman dealers I also have my eyes open for other options while exploring the world of pellet stoves.

Paul

The P series Harman and probably other all welded steel stoves radiates a fair percentage of it's heat. Cast stoves ( pellet stoves that is) tend not to do that. Cast stoves are more baffled up inside I believe. My living room, dining room and my studio are probably mostly getting radiant heat from the P61, as the convection air is not directed that way. This was my concern with the 52i, that the dining room and studio would not get heat since it puts out probably 90% convection. You can touch the outside of the XXV and the 52i when cranking out serious heat, you are not touching a P61. As one dealer said, you won't find any cats sleeping on the P61 in the morning ! It's funny but I started out wanting an all convection stove, then as winter was shaping up I lit off the old coal stove which was all radiant and oh no, I want radiant at least some heat, at some percentage there of. You get pretty nice heat out of the P61 when set in manual low. That is a mode with a fixed flame and no convection blower going. It's sufficient to heat the downstairs when you have company over and want to visit ( in our case we have a monthly bible study at our house ( they all love the stove). It's a relatively silent mode compared with room temp high for instance.

A P series stove makes a bit more noise than a cast stove though. But you get used to it.

Incidentally, my wife is the same as yours. She doesn't accept new things easily but once she does she also doesn't give it up. The goofy things about her, in the big picture, are just something to chuckle at. We been together for 40 years, I couldn't have a better mate ultimately, better mother for our kids etc....