Questions to ask my sweep

[faultymechanics]

Hello all!


Wife and I are finally closing on our new house at the end of this month and we are hustling to get a sweep in to inspect the current wood stove insert as well as the chimney. Currently the propane boiler and wood stove insert are venting out the chimney, which is illegal in NH.

However, we are installing a Pellet Boiler after we close and because both the Boiler and Stove use wood as solid fuel sources, we can once again exhaust both out of the Chimney.

This is where I'm hoping to get some help. I know running one liner out a Chimney is relatively standard but I want to make sure nothing is missed running two liners out for both heating sources.

I'm wondering if there are any specific questions I should ask my sweep when I meet with them on the 28th. THey are well reputed in the area so I think they will do a good job but I know people on this forum are extremely knowledgeable and was wondering if there's anything you'd suggest I discuss with the sweep.

Currently there is a VC WinterWarm in the fireplace and I believe a previous sweep said something on it needed replacing which may be hard considering the age so I'm preparing myself to hear that it is time to replace the stove.

I just want to make the safest, financially sound decision involving this chimney.

Thanks!

 

[bholler]

Hello all!


Wife and I are finally closing on our new house at the end of this month and we are hustling to get a sweep in to inspect the current wood stove insert as well as the chimney. Currently the propane boiler and wood stove insert are venting out the chimney, which is illegal in NH.

However, we are installing a Pellet Boiler after we close and because both the Boiler and Stove use wood as solid fuel sources, we can once again exhaust both out of the Chimney.

This is where I'm hoping to get some help. I know running one liner out a Chimney is relatively standard but I want to make sure nothing is missed running two liners out for both heating sources.

I'm wondering if there are any specific questions I should ask my sweep when I meet with them on the 28th. THey are well reputed in the area so I think they will do a good job but I know people on this forum are extremely knowledgeable and was wondering if there's anything you'd suggest I discuss with the sweep.

Currently there is a VC WinterWarm in the fireplace and I believe a previous sweep said something on it needed replacing which may be hard considering the age so I'm preparing myself to hear that it is time to replace the stove.

I just want to make the safest, financially sound decision involving this chimney.

Thanks!

When you say they are sharing a chimney do you mean they share a flue or that they share a multi flue chimney?

 

[faultymechanics]

When you say they are sharing a chimney do you mean they share a flue or that they share a multi flue chimney?

Wish I could say the answer to that. All I know is the wood stove insert is installed in the same Chimney the Current Propane Boiler vents out of. Based on when the VC Winterwarm was sold I would guess the chimney was last worked on(liners installed and whatnot) in the 90s? I know the current owners get it cleaned each year but not much beyond that.

The boiler is from the 80s I believe.

 

[bholler]

Wish I could say the answer to that. All I know is the wood stove insert is installed in the same Chimney the Current Propane Boiler vents out of. Based on when the VC Winterwarm was sold I would guess the chimney was last worked on(liners installed and whatnot) in the 90s? I know the current owners get it cleaned each year but not much beyond that.

The boiler is from the 80s I believe.

When you say liners do you know that you have liners or could there be just one liner?

 

[faultymechanics]

When you say liners do you know that you have liners or could there be just one liner?

I suppose anything is possible. I know the sellers have explicitly mentioned the word "liner" however that is about the extent of it.

I'll attach a photo of the boiler in the basement, perhaps that could help a bit? Sorry, that is the best photo of the basement I have on hand.

 

[bholler]

I suppose anything is possible. I know the sellers have explicitly mentioned the word "liner" however that is about the extent of it.

I'll attach a photo of the boiler in the basement, perhaps that could help a bit? Sorry, that is the best photo of the basement I have on hand.View attachment 270029

You need to find this out. If they have separate flues there is nothing wrong with that at all. If they share one you are right it currently isn't to code and is not safe. But going to a pellet boiler won't change the safety issue at all. You would be trying to run a forced combustion appliance with positive flue pressure and a natural draft appliance with negative flue pressure on the same flue. It simply won't work

 

[faultymechanics]

You need to find this out. If they have separate flues there is nothing wrong with that at all. If they share one you are right it currently isn't to code and is not safe. But going to a pellet boiler won't change the safety issue at all. You would be trying to run a forced combustion appliance with positive flue pressure and a natural draft appliance with negative flue pressure on the same flue. It simply won't work

So basically it HAS to have separate flues to run both the boiler and stove out the chimney. Otherwise the stove would get the Chimney and we would need to run stovepipe out somewhere else to vent the boiler.

Does that sound about right?

Is there any way I can see or check if it has separate flues or is that best left to the professionals?

 

[bholler]

So basically it HAS to have separate flues to run both the boiler and stove out the chimney. Otherwise the stove would get the Chimney and we would need to run stovepipe out somewhere else to vent the boiler.

Does that sound about right?

Is there any way I can see or check if it has separate flues or is that best left to the professionals?

Many times you can see the tops of each flue from the ground. If so that's easy. If not the easiest would be to get on the roof.

It would be very uncommon to have a fireplace share a flue with a basement appliance

 

[faultymechanics]

Many times you can see the tops of each flue from the ground. If so that's easy. If not the easiest would be to get on the roof.

It would be very uncommon to have a fireplace share a flue with a basement appliance

Not sure I’ll be able to see it but that gives me hope there’s separate flues.

Would be a real bummer to install a bunch of stove pipe for the boiler. Looks much cleaner just venting out the chimney.

Something tells me the cost for two new liners won’t be cheap...plus the potential for a new wood stove!

Thank you, by the way, for all the info! Should help me understand the report I get from the Sweep on Monday.

 

[peakbagger]

If the chimney is square its probably one flue, its it rectangular it may be multiple flues. Pick a cold morning and start both, there should be two distinct vapor plumes if you have two flues.

I have run into numerous installations over the years with wood burners tied into the same flue as an oil boiler. its illegal in NH and most states. Maine has some odd exemption that allows it in certain limited situations. There is also an exemption for dual fuel units where the oil boiler is integrated into a wood boiler like the old HS Tarm units (neither fuel was very efficient). Lots of homes had quick wood stove installs back in the 80s when heating oil was expensive. Most folks did not worry about how legal the installs were. I saw some real interesting installs when I was in high school and college.

My wood boiler with a 8" flue pipe was connected via an 8 by 6 reducer into a 6" flue from an oil boiler with a wye pipe going into an outdoor chimney with a 6" connection. It stopped about 3' above the gutter, well below a ridgeline. My friend bought the house on a bank sale and it was written into the deal that the wood boiler had to be disconnected to get insurance required for the mortgage. There was black smoke stains and melted paint half way up the face of the wood boiler. She was going to pay someone to take it out so I got it for free. I removed the boiler case to move it in place and scuffed the front case piece with sandpaper and spray bombed it. I have been using it close to 20 years. Its not pretty but the price was right.

 

[AIMSWEEP]

I suppose anything is possible. I know the sellers have explicitly mentioned the word "liner" however that is about the extent of it.

I'll attach a photo of the boiler in the basement, perhaps that could help a bit? Sorry, that is the best photo of the basement I have on hand.View attachment 270029

Can you send along the address or a photo of the chimney so we can see if there are 2 pots coming out of the top or only 1.
The system can share a chimney, they just cannot share a flue channel.

 

[faultymechanics]

Hi guys,

So the chimney is rectangular but I can't say for certain there is two flues. The Sweep will have to determine this.

I do have another question and would love some guidance.

We are closing on the house and sellers haven't had the chimney cleaned this year or inspected. I'm preparing for the worst and thinking both liners may need to be replaced as well as the winterwarm stove insert. Based on how the current owners took care of the house over the last 5 years, I'm just thinking the liners are not in great shape (if there even are any liners).

The sellers have made it clear they will not negotiate further regardless of what the inspection discovers though they are adamant the stove "works."

Based on what I've seen I'm guessing 2.5k +/- $500 per liner install plus the cost of a new stove (2-3k). Does that sound about right? Obviously things vary based on location but I just want to prepare myself.

Additionally, if I am correct and we need two new liners and a new stove, is it possible to just replace the one liner to the boiler and just not use the wood stove until we are ready to pay for a new liner and stove? Is there a downside to this? I know some of you are sweeps by trade; is it more work in labor to do the liners separately vs getting them done on the same day?

Just trying to prepare for the worst but also keep my family safe.

 

[kennyp2339]

To be honest, since it looks like the sellers dont take care of things the best, you should if you have not already gone through the seller disclosure list (its a list were they can name all of the things in the house that they are either aware of that doesnt work, or things like appliances that they are leaving behind and condition of it. IE: Seller says the chimney is in useful condition, certified sweep inspector on your dime and time discovers that all the flue tiles are cracked from previous unknown chimney fires, you can technically have the seller liable for the damage and potentially repair money.

 

[peakbagger]

I had a similar issue years ago where a seller made representations of certain defects in a home that turned out to be wrong. I knew an attorney and he advised me that I was far better spending the money I would have spent on litigation on the actual repair. The problem is that the seller is not a professional and was only asserting their opinion in the disclosure. If there had been a professional paid to inspect the wood burning appliance and chimney and the professional rendered an opinion of the condition of the stove and chimney then the pro could be liable. If anyone has seen the exclusions that Home Inspectors have on their reports their liability is also seriously limited frequently to the amount they were paid.

I was on the other side of the fence when I had to sell my parents home. I was aware of some potential defects but the market was hot and with three offers over asking I just picked the person who was most likely to close the fastest. She had an inspection and came up with some other items so I accepted a $2,500 deduction off her original offer and I made sure that the sale was as is with her accepting all defects with the cure being the $2,500 deduction. The lawyer was happy with it and I think she felt she got a good deal as it was an unusual home.

The market in NH in general is very tight currently expecially on the affordably end and I expect that there are other buyers willing to step in if the OP decides to walk so there is not a lot of leverage on the buyers part so its best to get what they can and prioritize the repairs. No doubt as an older home the place is loaded with lead paint and lead in the pipes along with possibly asbestos which are also risks so the it comes down to managing the risks until such time that they can be dealt with.

 

[faultymechanics]

I had a similar issue years ago where a seller made representations of certain defects in a home that turned out to be wrong. I knew an attorney and he advised me that I was far better spending the money I would have spent on litigation on the actual repair. The problem is that the seller is not a professional and was only asserting their opinion in the disclosure. If there had been a professional paid to inspect the wood burning appliance and chimney and the professional rendered an opinion of the condition of the stove and chimney then the pro could be liable. If anyone has seen the exclusions that Home Inspectors have on their reports their liability is also seriously limited frequently to the amount they were paid.

I was on the other side of the fence when I had to sell my parents home. I was aware of some potential defects but the market was hot and with three offers over asking I just picked the person who was most likely to close the fastest. She had an inspection and came up with some other items so I accepted a $2,500 deduction off her original offer and I made sure that the sale was as is with her accepting all defects with the cure being the $2,500 deduction. The lawyer was happy with it and I think she felt she got a good deal as it was an unusual home.

The market in NH in general is very tight currently expecially on the affordably end and I expect that there are other buyers willing to step in if the OP decides to walk so there is not a lot of leverage on the buyers part so its best to get what they can and prioritize the repairs. No doubt as an older home the place is loaded with lead paint and lead in the pipes along with possibly asbestos which are also risks so the it comes down to managing the risks until such time that they can be dealt with.

The market right now is crazy up here.

It is quite an old house, 1925. Thankfully the only lead paint is in the exterior which we will handle down the road. All pipes were replaced with pvc years ago so no lead and insulation has been redone when interior painting and Sheetrock was redone...so as far as we know and can see, no asbestos!

Just had a million other problems that the sellers repaired or compensated us for.

All the disclosure said was it had a wood stove and it was last cleaned and serviced in 2019. It just hasn’t been done yet this year.

 

[bholler]

To be honest, since it looks like the sellers dont take care of things the best, you should if you have not already gone through the seller disclosure list (its a list were they can name all of the things in the house that they are either aware of that doesnt work, or things like appliances that they are leaving behind and condition of it. IE: Seller says the chimney is in useful condition, certified sweep inspector on your dime and time discovers that all the flue tiles are cracked from previous unknown chimney fires, you can technically have the seller liable for the damage and potentially repair money.

Only if it can be proven they knew about it. And if the house is being sold as is it really doesn't matter.

 

[kennyp2339]

And if the house is being sold as is it really doesn't matter.

I missed that part

 

[bholler]

I missed that part

I don't know if it is being sold as is or not. Most here are but in some areas it is less common.

 

[firefighterjake]

When we bought our house 25 years ago the seller reported that there was a "slightly damp spot in the basement" . . . which we learned come Spring actually translates into "The basement will be flooded with several inches of water unless you have a working sump pump."

 

[kennyp2339]

Ideally wouldnt there be multiple cleanouts at the bottom of the chimney? One for each flue?

 

[bholler]

Ideally wouldnt there be multiple cleanouts at the bottom of the chimney? One for each flue?

Yes but not if one is a fireplace

 

[faultymechanics]

Well I got my answers today.

Two separate flues one for wood stove and one for central heat.

I was told I’ll need a new insulated liner installed if I’m putting in apellet boiler. Not sure if the boiler has to be in first or the liner though.

The old VC Winterwarm is still working fine but is starting to show some warping. The liner isn’t insulated and has two small holes (one where it was riveted together). I was told “technically” it should be replaced but I can use it for the time being.

They will send me a quote for a new stove an insulated liner for that as well.