Questons about first burn Starving for air? any suggestions?

[Blkbeard]

Hello everyone I am new to wood burning and just had a new Regency i1200 installed. From what I read I should burn it a few times to cure/season the stove.
Last night and again today I tried to light a fire. I used a purchased starter solution, small wax cup filled with wax and chips. Placed my wood around it so it would catch and lit it, then pretty much closed the door. I set the draft to full which is pulled to the left when looking at the stove. It burned for about the length of the starter then smouldered and snuffed out.

I noticed when burning it seemed that the unit was filling up with smoke so much that I could watch the smoke fall down by the airwash and speed it up and down by adjusting the draft.

I noticed alot of condensation on the sides of the metal on the inside of the stove firebox ( when I could see through the smoke)

I questioned the dryness of the wood.
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On my second attempt today I choose different wood lit the fire the same way but after about 10 minutes it was not looking very promising either so I carefully cracked the door (no smoke entered house) and within minutes the fire was raging. I left it like that for about 5-10 minutes then slowly closed the door the fire slowly snuffed itself out.



I looked in the manual and did not see anywhere where the air intake is so that I could check to see if there is packaging that may be lodged or check for when the stove cools down.

when sliding the damper to the left and right I hear what sounds like something is moving in the middle of the stove so I think I can rule out a disconnected damper. although an inconsistancy with the manual. it says to pull to open and push to close my damper only goes left and right.

any ideas thoughts or suggestions?

 

[jtp10181]

OK I looked in the manual, it looks like your air control comes out on the left side. Using the "Pull / Push" info I would left "Right" (pulling the handle out away from the insert) would be open, and then left (pushing it in) is closed. Are you operating it correctly?

Also I found this in the manual

During the first few hours it may be more difficult to start the fire. As you dry out your fire brick and your masonry flue (if applicable), your draft will increase.

Also, the little bump in the front of the unit is where the air should come in for combustion, make sure the hole in it is not blocked. The slider handle is usually just a rod welded to a steel plate that slides over a hole. I get customers all the time thinking its broken or not working right and when I explain to them how simple the mechanism is they realize there is really nothing that can go wrong with it. It is almost always either the wood being burned or the customer operating it incorrectly. In fact I just went out on one of these calls last week. Wood was so wet foam was coming out of it, and they just needed a little training on the air controls.

 

[Blkbeard]

OK I looked in the manual, it looks like your air control comes out on the left side. Using the "Pull / Push" info I would left "Right" (pulling the handle out away from the insert) would be open, and then left (pushing it in) is closed. Are you operating it correctly?

Also I found this in the manual

During the first few hours it may be more difficult to start the fire. As you dry out your fire brick and your masonry flue (if applicable), your draft will increase.

Also, the little bump in the front of the unit is where the air should come in for combustion, make sure the hole in it is not blocked. The slider handle is usually just a rod welded to a steel plate that slides over a hole. I get customers all the time thinking its broken or not working right and when I explain to them how simple the mechanism is they realize there is really nothing that can go wrong with it. It is almost always either the wood being burned or the customer operating it incorrectly. In fact I just went out on one of these calls last week. Wood was so wet foam was coming out of it, and they just needed a little training on the air controls.

Yes I belive I am operating it correctly since the fire quickly becomes snuffed out when the rod is pushed to the Right which is toward the stove door.

I read that about the drying of the bricks but I presumed that meant that there would be greater draft as the bricks were drying. So should I continue to run the stove for the first while with the door open to be sure all is dried out? I hope more air gets into my stove other than at that small square at the front. It seems so small. But then again I dont know what is proper.

 

[jtp10181]

There is more than the small square. From the pictures in the manual, and the knowledge I have about Quad units (which look similar in design) here is what I would presume.

The slider for the air control is probably a straight rod welded to a flat plate. The plate slides over a pie shaped or square hold in the center front area of the unit. Air comes in directly into the hole in the front, and it also can pass along a channel in one of the sides of the unit. From there it will travel up to the top, while becoming heated by the fire. It is then injected into the stove just above the glass for an air wash, and also out the holes in the tubes for secondary burn. From the looks of the stove that is the only place air comes in. Quad units have a second handle that controls "Start-Up" air which comes in through One ore more 1/2" (or so) sized holes in the back. I guess your start up air is just opening the door?

 

[jqgs214]

Well lets get some more info. When the unit was installed was it draft tested? How high is your stack? You may have a poor draft condition. What altitude are you at? what was the temperature outside when you tried this break-in fire? Do you have an interior or exterior chimney. We will get this figured out but we just need some more info. also, how lonfg is the wood seasoned?? did you season it yourself or was is purchased.

 

[caryski]

i just up the same insert into my pefab fireplace with a pretty short stack it starts up just fine, keep the door cracked alittle at first an the damper rod to the left. what did you put the insert in to? make sure you get some dry wood for start up after that it seems to burn anything

 

[Blkbeard]

Well lets get some more info. When the unit was installed was it draft tested? How high is your stack? You may have a poor draft condition. What altitude are you at? what was the temperature outside when you tried this break-in fire? Do you have an interior or exterior chimney. We will get this figured out but we just need some more info. also, how lonfg is the wood seasoned?? did you season it yourself or was is purchased.

I just moved in about 2 months ago originally there was a pre fab fireplace.

Draft tested I am not sure what that term means I will ask the installer

the stack is 5 feet above the outside edge of the roof. Total height of chimney is 20 feet.

My altitude is 95 Meters / 311 feet above sea level from what I can figure out

the temperatue outside was about 55 degrees

My chimney is on the exterior wall

On the first burn I think the window in the room may have been closed on the second burn I opend it wide.

The Wood used on the first fire was some kiln dried kindling that I had bought at 7-11 mixed with some purchaesed wood from 7-11

the second fire I used wood from a cedar bush that was cut down about 2yr ago and about 2 inches in diameter. I believe it to be dry.

the fire was like night and day with the door opened.

Thanks for your help guys I really appreciate it. I will be talking to the installer but I am just trying to gather information right now.

 

[jtp10181]

Although it may burn "anything" I would not suggest it. Burning wet or unseasoned wood will create lower stack temps and make more creosote stick to the chimney. I had a customer who was burning large rounds (not split, thus unseasoned) overnight and clogged up the entire cap after only about 20 fires.

Wood form the Quickie mart I would guess is not dry... that stuff is for firepits and campfires, not stoves.

 

[senorFrog]

Assuming your're working the draft control correctly and there is nothing else funky going on, leave the door CRACKED until the logs are burning. That helped quite a bit in my situation where I have marginal draft because of a long horitzontal run of pipe. After about 30 - 45 minutes I close the door completely. You can try a top down fire too. It works well, but over a long 24x7 season can be a PITA.

Here are few links re staring a fire...

(broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.org/tips/technique.htm)
(broken link removed to http://www.woodheat.org/tips/topdown.htm) (TOP DOWN FIRE)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twdn9sKOgxc (TOP DOWN FIRE)

You can try these, they work well. Last season they were sending out free samples.

http://www.supercedar.com

There used to be another video on hearth.com (posted by Web I think), but I can't find it right now.

Also, some photos of the install will help. Especially if there is something funky like a horizontal pipe which has negative rise. Doesn't have to be anything special. Just snap a few with your cell phone, email to yourself and upload to this post.

 

[Blkbeard]

There is more than the small square. From the pictures in the manual, and the knowledge I have about Quad units (which look similar in design) here is what I would presume.

The slider for the air control is probably a straight rod welded to a flat plate. The plate slides over a pie shaped or square hold in the center front area of the unit. Air comes in directly into the hole in the front, and it also can pass along a channel in one of the sides of the unit. From there it will travel up to the top, while becoming heated by the fire. It is then injected into the stove just above the glass for an air wash, and also out the holes in the tubes for secondary burn. From the looks of the stove that is the only place air comes in. Quad units have a second handle that controls "Start-Up" air which comes in through One ore more 1/2" (or so) sized holes in the back. I guess your start up air is just opening the door?

I dont believe there is a second handle.

 

[elkimmeg]

First of all at 55 degrees outside most stoves will draft lazy There is only a 10 to 15 degree temp difference. The larger the disparity, meaning colder outside the stronger the draft.
Next we need a bunchs of additional questions answered first
explain the stove connection and entire venting system How is it vented size of the piping used,

Where what floor in your home is the stove located I thinking in terms of competition of combustion air and negative pressure effects
Are there any other fuel burning appliances near that stove? What about clothes dryers, bath fans, and kitchen hood vents?

Is there a floor above that stove with a whole house fan or pull down stairs to an attic?

Is the stove located in the cellar? How modern is your home how air tight is it? Did you try running the stove with a cracked adjacent window?

All these conditions and warm out side temps will and can effect stove preformance

 

[Blkbeard]

First of all at 55 degrees outside most stoves will draft lazy There is only a 10 to 15 degree temp difference. The larger the disparity, meaning colder outside the stronger the draft.
Next we need a bunchs of additional questions answered first
explain the stove connection and entire venting system How is it vented size of the piping used,

Where what floor in your home is the stove located I thinking in terms of competition of combustion air and negative pressure effects
Are there any other fuel burning appliances near that stove? What about clothes dryers, bath fans, and kitchen hood vents?

Is there a floor above that stove with a whole house fan or pull down stairs to an attic?

Is the stove located in the cellar? How modern is your home how air tight is it? Did you try running the stove with a cracked adjacent window?

All these conditions and warm out side temps will and can effect stove preformance

The original fireplace cap was removed. I looked up in the there during install and it looked like a stainless tube maybe 10 - 12 inched in diameter running to the top. Inside of that pipe the installer ran a (5.5 x16 ssliner as written on the bill) stainless steel tube directly connected to the stove to the top of the chimney a stainless steel cap on top ( it is a packaged liner solution from what I gatherd all fit together)

The house is a bungalow the stove is in the living room. The window I opened was about 15 feet from the stove. there are no other fuel burning appliances on this floor.

All other fans were off during testing.

during the second test a 4x4 window was open.

I am going to get some wood (seasoned from a seller to test.)

 

[Blkbeard]

So I guess I should wait till its colder as well to test everything.

I am also thinking maybe I should remove the exterior decorative trim from the front of the insert that would help verify that there was not an intake problem? meaning that if I can see the side intake ports then for sure they are getting lots of air and maybe not blocked with insulation or something.

 

[DiscoInferno]

I guess I would think that if it burns fine with the door cracked, then draft isn't the problem. Seems like an air supply problem. Try getting the fire going with the door cracked and the air control wide open, then close the door, light and blow out a match, and hold it in front of the air intake to see if the smoke is sucked in.

Are there any plates to remove for the air supply depending on outside or room air? My Ultima came configured for outside combustion air, to use inside air one had to remove a plate.

 

[Blkbeard]

I guess I would think that if it burns fine with the door cracked, then draft isn't the problem. Seems like an air supply problem. Try getting the fire going with the door cracked and the air control wide open, then close the door, light and blow out a match, and hold it in front of the air intake to see if the smoke is sucked in.

Are there any plates to remove for the air supply depending on outside or room air? My Ultima came configured for outside combustion air, to use inside air one had to remove a plate.

I pulled back the decorative trim last night so I could see the air intakes and they look clear. I guess my concern is that something is blocking the air flow through the air intakes maybe packing? I looked inside the firebox with a mirror at the center where the air is supposed to come in and the holes are clear. there are about 4 or 5 1/4inch diameter holes there.

 

[DiscoInferno]

Those holes are at the bottom front? That's usually only part of the primary air; the rest comes in just above the glass to keep it clean. It's usually obvious if air is coming in those holes because the fire burns a lot brighter right there. You could try using a shop-vac or hair-dryer to force air in those holes, and see where/if it blows out. I looked at the i1200 manual but it's not clear to me where combustion air first comes into the unit.

 

[Dunadan]

Did you do anything to get your upwards draft going before you started the fire?

I normally stick a couple pieces of newspaper way in the back right under the bypass (which I leave open when starting a fire) and light them first. I believe the idea is to start the upwards draft before starting your fire. If I don't do this, oftentimes my firebox will fill up with smoke because there is no draft going yet. Especially when it s not really cold outside.

So you know, I have also in the past left my stove door open a crack to get more air in to get my fire going good. This only my second year burning, but as I understand it, I should not have to do this, so I'll be looking to hone my fire starting skills this year.

On the positive side, if you plan to burn 24x7 and can master the overnight burn, once the burning season really starts you should not have to start that many fires from scratch. I think during the last couple months last season I probably only started a fire from scratch once or twice (mainly due to a need to clean out ash and glass). Once you get your timing down, if you do it right, you'll always have some hot coals to start your next batch of wood. If you're using dry wood, even if it looks like you have no coals, it doesn't take much air to get them hot and ignite your new wood.

 

[Blkbeard]

Well if anyone is still following this post I think my problem is solved. Even though for the past month I must have read over 2000 posting of different peoples problems preparing for my stove. When It came to me I was lost. I reviewed everyones suggestions and took another shot at it. This time I grabbed "seasoned wood" started the fire and left the door cracked for a "TIMED" 20 minutes then added another log and shut the door. at first I thought it was going to snuff out again but then it kept going. the flame is a slow wavy flame. and just before I posted this message I believe I was getting the sought after 2ndary burn. So I think from here on in its just me figuring out the stove adjusting the cracked door time etc. Presuming a stronger draft as the weather gets cold I think all will be well. Thanks once again for suggestions I think I am going to be ok now. Now I just have to clean my glass since my first few experiments dirtied it up with soot / tar /creosote.


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Blkbeard

 

[jtp10181]

Dip a wet rag in some ash and that gunk cleans off like magic, no joke.