Reality Check and Insert Questions

[spur0701]

New guy here, I’m suffering from information overload….just want to check my conclusions and get some feedback on some specific questions.

I grew up with a wood stove in the house back in the 70’s and my dad still heats with his original Nasau installed in the corner of the living room. I built a house about 10 years ago but didn’t install one since energy was cheaper then and I have a busy profession.

I did some research summer before last (see my join date) on installing a fireplace insert but the math then showed the payback to be about 5 years if I remember correctly since I was looking at about $5K for an installed cost. But with increased energy prices plus the $1500 tax rebate this year I’m looking at this again.

Below is a key plan of the house, it’s pretty big, almost 3500 square feet not including the basement, which is another 1800, there’s also a stand up attic that’s not shown and is just used for storage and is closed off, that’s another 800, 9 foot ceiling throughout the house even in the basement. It’s a fairly open plan with no walls between the family room, sun room or kitchen….living room and dining room also open but not used much. Air flow to the second floor should be good since the foyer is open to the second floor and there’s a second back stair case to the second floor just to the side of the fireplace in the family room. There are masonry fireplaces in the family room and in the basement (one on top of the other and the one in the basement has never been used). There is also a gas fireplace in the master suite. There are ceiling fans in the family room, the sun room, and in the master suite upstairs. There are lots of windows and not just in the sun room (wife went a little crazy and almost every wall on the first floor has windows). Current heat is 2 zone heat pump with gas backup (2nd floor one zone, first floor and basement on another zone (with thermostat on the first floor). Air flow and or exchange between the basement and the rest of the house seem to be restrictive since it’s only by way of a stair case with a 90 degree turn.

Wood supply is no problem; I live on 12 acres, 10 of which are wooded and from what I remember from previous research that’s large enough for it to provide a sustainable wood supply.

Given the size of the house I was looking at a Quadra-Fire 5100i or Napoleon 1402 placed in the family room (pic below to show brick mass, it goes all the way to the ceiling and the fireplace in the basement does the same)…….any other recommendations brands and models?

My wife has argued for placing the insert in the basement and leaving the family room as a regular fireplace (she likes the atmosphere). While that would be fine for the basement I don’t think it would do much for the rest of the house. My plan was to just install in the family room and let it do as much for the first and second floor as it can.

My worry is about the basement, it’s on the same zone as the first floor. With an insert heating the first floor and the thermostat on the first floor I see it getting cold down there and since I telecommute from home a lot I spend a lot of time down there. When I had priced an insert the year before last the salesman was trying to sell me on a second smaller insert for the basement since I spent so much time down there…thoughts anyone?

But if I pop for two can I use the tax rebate twice?

I'm currently deployed to Afghanistan and not back for a few more months, wasn't really planning on buying and installing until after the winter is over and I'm back.....my reasoning being that during the off season I should get better prices....thoughts on that?

 

[Roxburyeric]

The basement will definitely get cold unless you heat it separately or you will need to close the first floor vents and turn up the thermostat to trick it to send heat to the basement. You will have a hard time heating that large house with any insert. Good luck.

 

[SolarAndWood]

Thanks for your service spur. While I agree that the place for a space heater is in your family room, running enough wood to heat that big of a space is going to be rough on light carpets. Unless you have a strategy for dealing with that, I would consider a new efficient fireplace in the family room and a big free standing utility stove in the basement.

 

[KB007]

With the walkout in the basement, it would be easy to stack your wood there and lug it in to a large stove in the basement. We have a Napoleon 1450 stove in the basement of our 1800 sqf bungalow (1800 sqf finished basement as well). I've been playing around with heat movement and it seems to be doing a fairly good job heating the whole house most of the time (exception is very cold nights - say -20C - when the furnace will come on a few times. Are you set on an insert if you put it in the basement or would you go with a free standing or maybe a hearth stove? If stove, you might want to look at something a little bigger like the NAP 1900 or similarly sized firebox.

I'd check on your local fire codes to see what the rules are about registers etc to see if you can do anything to help the air movement. We have a gas insert in our LR and I've been toying with the idea of a wood insert to replace it, but if it was a wood fireplace, I would probably leave it as is and use it for atmosphere fires when we're watching tv etc.

If you're set on an insert on the main floor, you could always run a second thermostat in the basement and just use it for winter months only.

 

[iceman]

WOW
there is no easy answer for you...
if it were me, i would call havc guy and run a wire to the furnace for another thermostat in the basement... this way when the basement gets cold you will still have heat, it will also help heat your first floor as well.... make sure hvac guy disconnects the thermostat on the first floor or make them run together...
put a very nice looking stove in so the wife doesnt get mad

what kind of heating system do you have?
you might be better off installing a wood furnace to tie into your existing ductwork ... that will keep the wife happy!

 

[begreen]

A third zone for the basement would be a good idea, but clearly no single stove is going to come close to heating 5300sq ft. You are correct about there not being a good air convection passage from the basement. That also confirms that at least 2 stoves would be a better solution. However, as iceman suggested, an EPA wood furnace like a Caddy, might be more appropriate here.

http://www.psg-distribution.com/product.aspx?CategoId=15&Id=325

 

[spur0701]

Just thought I would post to close out this thread......sometimes when I'm researching something on the net it's a little frustrating when you don't see what the end results are or don't get the complete whole story.

So given how big my house is, even when the basement isn't included, I just thought there was no easy answer to heating with wood, especially considering how open the plan was and how many windows we have. Given that, I was reluctant to spend what was looking to be at least 5k to get an insert or stove installed and it not do an adequate job. So I decided to go with something used and do the install myself to minimize the cost and hopefully whatever I ended up with would take the chill off the house and supplement the regular heat pump/propane heating system.

So I kept my eye on CL beginging in Jun and finally in mid-Sep found a used Quadrafire 5100i listed as part of a moving sale. I bought a liner and insulation off the net but instead of getting a full kit from one place I found it cheaper to get a steel liner from one place, and parts of an insulation kit from another, and a raincap from the local hardware store as well as sealant and new window gasket. Sheet steel and mineral wool to insulate the firebox and for the blockoff plate were bought from Lowes and/or ordered from McMaster-Carr (I really like their quick delivery).

I had to rehab and clean the 5100i, new gaskets on the side windows and I repainted it and the surround (with Rustoleum flat black high temp spray paint). I also had to replace the baffle board, it was cracked and the ceramic blanket I replaced with kaowool I bought off of eBay (there's enough of that left over for new blankets for the next 20 years).

With no expirence the install was slow and took a couple of afternoons on two seperate weekends, I had to chisel off some brick from the fireplace so the 5100i would fit in the firebox and the liner was long (32 feet) and getting it ovalized, through the flue, and then rounded again was a pain.

When I installed the blower it didn't work and it turned out the rheostat was bad, that took a week to get a replacement and it was $35.......but in the meantime I ran the stove without a blower......and it works great. I lucked out and it turns out a lot of heat goes up the back staircase to the second floor and the bedrooms up there then into the open foyer and living room/diining room at the other end of the house. I'm sorta amazed at the heat distribution, even without a blower or other fans except for a couple of ceiling fans.....it's 68-70 on the first floor at the far end of the house, 70-72 on the second floor in the hall and 68-70 in the bedrooms and that's at night when the outside temp has been in the 30s. Since we started burning the primary heat pump has only come on once the first or second night at about 0300 and that was because the thermostats were still set at 68. My wife has no body fat and is always cold so she really loves the heat, it's usually in the high 70s in the family room, warmer closer to the insert......she's very happy and likes the view through the three 5100i windows.

I installed new programable thermostats and lowered them to 62, will probably lower them a little further as winter really sets in. The basement is a little cold (don't have a thermostat down there yet) but no one really goes down there except me (the whole thing is basically my man-cave) but with the registers closed on the first floor and the programable theromostat I can heat it if needed.

So I think I spent about $1750 on everything, even couting the beer and pizza I bought to feed the crew that helped with the install. My accountant sayshe thinks I can still claim 30% of that for the tax credit if I pull together the receipts even though the stove is used......but even without that I think the repay time from savings on heating will be three years maybe even two.

In short am very happy with the result and want to thank everyone that took the time to answer my questions and posts over the last few months, couldn't have gotten this results with out this site and the people here.

 

[begreen]

Welcome back soldier. Excellent job, you've done well. Thanks for the follow up report. The stove looks great.

You could still put in a small insert in the man cave for the deduction.

http://www.overstockstoves.com/50tnc13i--epa-certified-noncatalytic-wood-stove--1550131500.html
and we have a few reports coming in on this new entry:
http://www.northlineexpress.com/item/5VZ-TR004/Colonial-Woodburning-Fireplace-Insert-TR004

 

[eujamfh]

Spur - that stove looks great. We have a similar arrangement in our house, but two stoves on the main floor. HVAC set up same as you. In the winter I close off some of the first floor registers so if the heat comes on, the bulk is in the basement. That helps cut the edge in the basement if the heat comes on at night. We close the basement door, to trap what ever heat there is down there. We also run the HVAC fan on low 24/7, so recirculated air which is warmer than the basement gets down there as well.

If we are in a the basement for a long time, I throw a space heater on and wear a sweater. Its cool in comparison to the upstairs, where my wife also likes the temps high. If you keep playing with air flows, vents and such, you will find a good mix that will answer the mail.

Plus, since you obviously can install yourself...you can keep your eye on CL when the season is over and look for a free standing unit for your man cave. Good luck.

 

[spur0701]

Plus, since you obviously can install yourself...you can keep your eye on CL when the season is over and look for a free standing unit for your man cave. Good luck.

Yup, I've been thinking about putting another insert in the basement to take the chill off, depending on how things are at work, I telecommute from down there a lot...sometimes as much as 20 hours a week, and I also have a gunroom and gym room down there in addition to the home office and den. But even if I get another deal off of CL on an insert I'm not sure it would be worth it since the liner and insulation for the chimney would be close to 40 feet long and cost $600 or $700 I would guess.....also, there's a wicked bend in that chimney that would be a pain on an install. I recently saw an old Timerline insert like the one below (is that what people mean when they use the term "smoke dragon") on CL not too far away for real cheap...would something like that without a liner be a viable option to not heat the basement full time but take the chill off when it's used?