Regency F2400 Clearances Too Close?

[JRunner01]

Hi All...

I recently discovered that our 2 yr old stove is too close to the wall according to the owners manual \ spec. We have double wall stove pipe (black) going up to ceiling with a 45 degree bend closer to the ceiling. Then it goes through ceiling to double wall stainless chimney pipe, which then is hidden in the second floor wall, then right through roof (no attic). The only bend is the 45 on the first floor where its exposed black double wall pipe.

Spec says (Regency F2400 with airmate) the stove itself, using the heat shield as a ref point to the wall, should be 5.5" using double wall pipe. Well its 4". It also says the center line of pipe coming off stove should be 12" to wall. Well its 10.5". So we are short 1.5" inches in both areas which makes sense.

I had the installers come back out to check it out and they agree that by the spec of stove its short by 1.5 and they agree they messed up, but say since the double wall pipe coming off the stove is at its 6" clearance to wall, I am fine and could leave it as is. They measure from the double wall pipe exterior (not the center line) to the wall and its 6", which they say is within spec for the pipe itself. They also said they will move it out if I want them to at no charge, including extending the floor tile out as well.

This investigation by myself with the clearances started because I have felt the wall when the stove is going good (475 - 500 deg) and the section of the wall on the low side where the stove is, is warm, however when I feel the section of the wall where the pipe is, its HOT. For about 3 secs or so, then it feels fine, meaning I don't feel like my hand is burning and I can leave it there indefinitely with no issue. Its only the initial feeling of the wall that gives me that HOT sensation and then it dies out until I move my hand to another section in that same area, then its HOT again. The wall is painted with semi gloss paint.

So my question is, should I have them move it out for the 1.5"? Although they say it will be more like a total of 5" since the 45 deg bend will be shorter in length when they bump the stove out, so it will kick the stove out more than 1.5", more like a total of 5".

Thanks in advance...

 

[Grisu]

I have felt the wall when the stove is going good (475 - 500 deg) and the section of the wall on the low side where the stove is, is warm. However when I feel the section of the wall where the pipe is, its HOT. For about 3 secs or so, then it feels fine, meaning I don't feel like my hand is burning and I can leave it there indefinitely with no issue. Its only the initial feeling of the wall that gives me that HOT sensation and then it dies out until I move my hand to another section in that same area, then its HOT again.

What kind of wall is it? I suspect that it feels less hot so quickly simply means your wall cannot store heat that long and transfers it therefore quickly to your comparably cool hand. Plus, your hand may also quickly get accustomed to the warm wall. It still means your wall is getting too hot. You could get an IR thermometer to measure it.

So my question is, should I have them move it out for the 1.5"? Although they say it will be more like a total of 5" since the 45 deg bend will be shorter in height when they bump the stove out, so it will kick the stove out more than 1.5", more like a total of 5".

Yes, have it fixed (especially when you seem to have a honorable installer who will fix it for you). The clearances in the manual are minimum clearances; you cannot go below them and assume things will be ok. First, you never want to wake up to a burning drywall and second your insurance may not cover any fire when it turns out the clearances were not followed.

 

[JRunner01]

What kind of wall is it? I suspect that it feels less hot so quickly simply means your wall cannot store heat that long and transfers it therefore quickly to your comparably cool hand. Plus, your hand may also quickly get accustomed to the warm wall. It still means your wall is getting too hot. You could get an IR thermometer to measure it.

Dry wall with semi gloss paint.

What is a safe temp for the wall with IR gun? I am borrowing one today.

Thanks...

 

[begreen]

Safety is based on tested measurements with a much hotter stove. You need to get the stove top up to around 750F to take ad hoc readings. Same thing with the piping. It's not the mild cruising you are protecting from, it's for the moments when things are running at their limits. Like say if someone spaced out turning down the stove.

Post a picture of this install if you can. Also, did they honor clearances correctly above the ceiling with the class A chimney pipe and through the roof?

 

[JRunner01]

Safety is based on tested measurements with a much hotter stove. You need to get the stove top up to around 750F to take ad hoc readings. Same thing with the piping. It's not the mild cruising you are protecting from, it's for the moments when things are running at their limits. Like say if someone spaced out turning down the stove.

Post a picture of this install if you can. Also, did they honor clearances correctly above the ceiling with the class A chimney pipe and through the roof?

Yes they are using double wall stainless steel chimney pipe on second floor and through roof.

First floor has black dura vent double wall pipe coming off stove vertically for the majority of the length up and then through a 45 dura vent double wall pipe then a 6" dura vent double wall pipe then another 45, dura vent double wall pipe then straight up into ceiling plate adapter (not sure what its called), but meant for transitioning to the double wall stainless for second floor. The 45s and the 6' straight section is just to transition to where we had to place the chimney on the second floor. It brings the pipe out in front of stove before going up into second floor. Second floor has the double wall stainless chimney pipe going all the way up through ceiling and roof, not attic, again through another ceiling plate adapter thing (not sure what its called).

So the plan is to remove the 6" straight section between the two 45s of the first floor to bump the stove out. I'm figuring it will change the offset from 8.75" to 5" by removing this 6" straight section based on the dura vent specs site, for 6" Diameter pipe. Thus bringing my stove out another 3.75", making the wall to back of stove clearance a total of 7.75", above the 5.5" minimum set by the manufacturer.

 

[Grisu]

Thus bringing my stove out another 3.75", making the wall to back of stove clearance a total of 7.75", above the 5.5" minimum set by the manufacturer.

It never hurts to exceed the minimum clearances for added safety. I am glad you are fixing that.

What I just noticed, you said that the stovetop temps are only ~500 F but the wall off the pipe is really hot. Do you have an internal flue probe thermometer? At what setting do you have the air control when the stove is cruising? When dry wood is used, the air control of the stove should be almost or fully closed, the stovetop temp should be higher than what you are having, while the flue temps should actually not be that high. Those modern stoves are designed to heat your home and to reduce the amount of heat lost through the chimney. Not that this changes anything about the need to fix the clearances but it seems you may be able to run your stove more efficiently.

 

[JRunner01]

It never hurts to exceed the minimum clearances for added safety. I am glad you are fixing that.

What I just noticed, you said that the stovetop temps are only ~500 F but the wall off the pipe is really hot. Do you have an internal flue probe thermometer? At what setting do you have the air control when the stove is cruising? When dry wood is used, the air control of the stove should be almost or fully closed, the stovetop temp should be higher than what you are having, while the flue temps should actually not be that high. Those modern stoves are designed to heat your home and to reduce the amount of heat lost through the chimney. Not that this changes anything about the need to fix the clearances but it seems you may be able to run your stove more efficiently.

Using eco bricks, about 9 of them all at once, leaving two in front of the rest to ignite with super cedar. I leave flue open all the way until the stove temp is around 325. Then I bring the flue 1/4 in. Let stove temp get to 350 - 375, bring in flue another 1/4. At this time flue thermometer is around 900, border of orange \ red on condor flue thermometer. The flue thermometer pretty much says there at 900 while the stove temp comes up to ~500. Once its up to ~500, I bring flue about 1/8, so its a bit more than 1/4 still open (3/8"). This is when I feel the wall. Then the flue thermometer starts dropping off slowly making its way to the 500 - 600 range.

In order to get the stove hotter than ~500, I'd have to leave the flue open longer and open more earlier on, but then I'm afraid the flue temps will get too hot, ie in the +900 range.

Side note... using bricks just in a pinch cause too many a holes out there selling unseasoned wood as seasoned.

 

[Grisu]

I assume the 900 F are internal flue temps with a probe thermometer?! I would say you let the flue get a little bit too hot especially when you are burning Ecobricks that have almost no moisture so little worry of creosote formation. Maybe let it go only to 700 F; 900 F should only be an occasional peak, not standard startup temp. I am actually surprised your stove does not go nuclear on you with the air a quarter open all the time. Several manufacturers discourage the use of those compressed logs in their stoves due to the high risk of overfire. What stove thermometer do you have and where is it located? I am wondering whether it is at the hottest spot or maybe reading incorrectly.

In any case, I would more go after the look of the fire than the stovetop thermometer. The thermometer will tell you the temp from like 5 min ago but not where you are right now. Once the logs are burning I would slowly reduce the air. When the flames become slow moving (lazy) stop and wait a bit until the fire is again vigorous. Then continue closing the air. Unless you draft is poor, I don't see a reason why you could not close or at least almost close the air completely. How does the fire look when the stove is cruising? There should be little flames in the bricks but lots of secondaries in the top.

using bricks just in a pinch cause too many a holes out there selling unseasoned wood as seasoned.

That is normal. Very few firewood sellers have the space and time to properly season wood. Buy several cords of green wood for 2 winters now and stack it to dry. Then after each winter replace what you have used and you will always have wood that has been seasoned for close to two years.

 

[JRunner01]

I assume the 900 F are internal flue temps with a probe thermometer?! I would say you let the flue get a little bit too hot especially when you are burning Ecobricks that have almost no moisture so little worry of creosote formation. Maybe let it go only to 700 F; 900 F should only be an occasional peak, not standard startup temp. I am actually surprised your stove does not go nuclear on you with the air a quarter open all the time. Several manufacturers discourage the use of those compressed logs in their stoves due to the high risk of overfire. What stove thermometer do you have and where is it located? I am wondering whether it is at the hottest spot or maybe reading incorrectly.

900 degrees is yes on the condor flue thermometer \ probe. But as I think I've stated, I get there gradually. As soon as my stove top temp hits 300, or so I come in 1/4 on the flue from full open and gradually bring it in another 1/4 to 1/2 total as its creeping up to to 475-525 degrees, leaving 1/4 open to maintain a high stove top temp of around 475-525 degrees.

The stove top thermometer I've always wondered if on my F2400 regency is best placed on the stove door outside bezel, where the installer said it should go. I was thinking it should go on the "stove top", since its a stove top thermometer. I experimented putting it there after already reaching 475-500 degrees on the door and it went up to 600 degrees when moved to the stove top. I also wondered if having the airmate\blower on my stove (which I optioned for with my stovel) would throw off the thermometer on the stove top since it will have hot \ warm air being passed over it while its trying to read the actual stove top metal temperature, hence why I am thinking the installer told me to place it on the door bezel. Therefore which is the right location? I would think the stove top is the more accurate location but the airmate makes me wonder.

In any case, I would more go after the look of the fire than the stovetop thermometer. The thermometer will tell you the temp from like 5 min ago but not where you are right now. Once the logs are burning I would slowly reduce the air. When the flames become slow moving (lazy) stop and wait a bit until the fire is again vigorous. Then continue closing the air. Unless you draft is poor, I don't see a reason why you could not close or at least almost close the air completely. How does the fire look when the stove is cruising? There should be little flames in the bricks but lots of secondaries in the top.

It just seems if I followed this approach I would not get up to a high enough temp (475 - 525 stove top) this way, especially if I'm closing the air sooner. It would also seem that it would take longer to get out of the creosote range. I believe what Ive described in the above posts is a slower \ more gradual approach to get the stove out of creosote range and the stove up to 500 degrees than what I used to do, which was leave it full open longer \ full on and then just bring it way down to 1/4 open and choke it when it got to 475 degrees.

 

[Grisu]

Just for clarification: When saying you are closing the flue you mean the primary air intake under the door, right? Also, what happen when the stove is above 450 F and you close the air completely? Do you see secondaries in the top of the firebox? What does the flue probe say? Maybe put the thermometer at the stovetop and leave the blower off for a few burns to get a better idea about your burn cycles.

I am asking because I am wondering whether your draft is pretty weak. You may get into problems when you start burning wood that certainly will not be as dry as those Ecologs. Now would be a good time to add 2 or 3 feet of pipe to the flue while you are changing the install anyway.

Btw. Creosote happens below 250 F when the moisture in the smoke condenses together with unburnt particles at the flue walls.You don't need to have the flue at 900 F to avoid creosote especially with those Ecologs that have very little moisture to begin with. Always getting it up to 900 F puts a lot of wear and tear on the flue pipe; getting it up there slowly does not change much about that. Plus, you are wasting precious heat that could be used to heat your home.

 

[JRunner01]

Yes I am speaking off the draft control rod under the door. If I were to close the draft completely it would bring the fire to a situation like you describe with slow glow from the bricks and a vibrant fire on the top near the tubes... I guess this what you refer to as the secondaries? The issue is because I have burnt up so much fuel along the way to get at the 475 to 500 degree range on the door thermometer, that I will soon drop off from this temp as a lot of the fuel has already been burned up the flue.

I think I have been misled by the dealer to use the door location as a measurement for the thermometer. I say this because I followed your steps above using the termometer on the stove top and in a matter of ten to fifteen minutes I was well into the 300 to 350 range, then in another ten minutes into the 400 to 475 range and then soon enough at 600+.

All along the way up the flue never got past 500 on flue probe. I reached that first 300 to 350 range on the stove top well before the Eco bricks were fully chared up. In fact many of them were still with sections un burnt. The draft was fully closed off by that 400 to 475 range on the stove top. Then soon after the 600 range the automatic blower / airmate kicked in, therfore it didnt afect the temp readings thus far. Then after being in the 600 to 700 range for a while and the glass on the door starting to darken, it started to drop off temp wise. Secondaries on the top near the tubes were still lively but less than before on the way up. And in fact the wall never felt as hot as I described in the beginning of this post using your method. It was barely warm.

I did pull the flue open a 1/8 step from closed to open as the lazy fire from the bricks seemed non existant and the secondaries on top near the tubes seemed weak as the stove top temp started dropping more and more.

Therefore I truly believe the door placement for the thermometer is probably much lower than the actual stove box and really think I have been burning my stove too hot using this location, not realizing how hot the stove box has really been since there was no thermometer there in the past.

I took pics along the way if I can pm them to you or I can post here. But I'm affriad this has gone off topic and perhaps think I should just converse via pm about the burning techniques with you if you don't mind.

Thanks...!

 

[begreen]

Your conclusions sound correct. Try running the stove with the thermometer on the stovetop and use that as your guide. Once the fire is going strong and the stove is warming up past say 300F on the stovetop, start reducing the air in increments. Close it down until the flames on the bricks or wood start to get lazy, but not out. Wait 5 or 10 minutes for the flames to regain strength, then repeat lowering the air again until the flames get lazy. By following this procedure the stovetop temps should continue to increase and the secondary burning (up top at the tubes) should increase in intensity.

Definitely still post the pictures here of the stove installation. Your stove has the potential to get much hotter. Clearances need to be honored for the worst case scenario, not mild burning conditions.

 

[Grisu]

Sounds like you are doing great. Those temps sound much more reasonable and indicate you lost way less heat up the flue. My guess is you needed to reload much later than usual. Opening up the air control a bit when the secondaries start dying down is something I do, too. It helps burning down the coals a bit faster and allows a faster reload. Since the Ecologs should burn very cleanly it does not seem to be that necessary in your case, unless you want to keep the stove real hot because your house starts getting cold.

If you want, just post the pics here, that's what the forum is for. However, it sounds you have figured out your burns now.

Nevertheless, please follow BGs advice and fix your clearances. They are there to protect you if something goes wrong like a chimney fire. That the wall does not get hot with a controlled burn, does not mean you will be safe when something bad happens.

 

[JRunner01]

Here are the pics from the recent burn using the suggested approach by Grisu.

They are in numeric order and labeled as such. The first digit value in the label is the point in time I took the pic and the second digit value is the multiple of pics I took at that time.

 

[JRunner01]

more...

 

[JRunner01]

last set...

 

[Grisu]

Wow, that's a lot of pictures. I think that looks right. Maybe one suggestion: If you start from a cold stove, you could use a bit less of the Ecologs. You just want a quick, hot fire to get the stove and flue warmed up and to establish a bed of coals. Then rake the coals all forward and add a bunch of Ecologs - for the beginning maybe the amount you have there. Pack them tight, so they will not burn up too quickly. If the stove is controllable and you get similar temps, then at the next reload you can put in 1-2 additional Ecologs. Keep doing that as long as you feel you can control the fire. Optimal is to make the box quite full (until about 2 inches under the secondary burn tubes), while still getting the stove up slowly to 600 F to 700 F when you can turn down the air but without smoldering the fire. You should have nice secondaries in the top and the stove should stay hot for several hours before slowly dropping back down. With less frequent reloads you will waste less fuel and save time.

Now, I use firewood but with that strategy I can make a quick startup fire of about 1 hr. Then 2 more burns of 6 hours before doing an overnight load of about 10 to 11 hours.

Your Ecologs will burn up more easily than firewood so be careful. While learning how to get the most out of the stove, stay with it until the air is in its final setting and the stove temp remains constant.

 

[JRunner01]

Well I did the same approach tonight except I used one less Eco brick and I got a bit nervous as the temp went higher than last night. It hit about 750 or a smidge more on the condor stove top thermometer and slightly more (600) on the condor flue probe.

What happened that caused it to go like that I don't know. Temps are about the same outside last night to tonight. I didn't start out with a small hot fire like suggested. I simply followed same steps as last night again except one less brick, for a total of 7 with a cold stove.

I got worried and kicked on the blower on high as they say that can cool off the box faster. I kept calm and it finally did drop, in what seemed like forever, but it probably wasn't.

What did it? Was it the one less brick enabled the rest burn hotter? Maybe I should use even less next time.

Also noticed last night and tonight using this new approach the glass gets black in the lower quarter of the pane. I assume this is OK and simply because I'm not burning with the same ntensity as like in the past with my old way.

 

[Grisu]

Well I did the same approach tonight except I used one less Eco brick and I got a bit nervous as the temp went higher than last night. It hit about 750 or a smidge more on the condor stove top thermometer and slightly more (600) on the condor flue probe.

750 F is still ok; you want to avoid going over 800 F. Turning up the blower is a good idea in that situation.

What happened that caused it to go like that I don't know. Temps are about the same outside last night to tonight. I didn't start out with a small hot fire like suggested. I simply followed same steps as last night again except one less brick, for a total of 7 with a cold stove.

You may have left more room between the logs which meant more air was available to them allowing a faster burn. Thus, pack them tight with little space between. You can also turn down the air a bit earlier. If that leads to the fire almost going out, you can open it again a bit until the flames become stronger again. Then, try turning it down again. Essentially it goes like this: In the beginning wait until the fire is strong and has charred most of the logs, then turn down the air until the flames become slow moving ("lazy"), wait until the fire is strong again, reduce air to get lazy flames etc. With the Ecologs you can probably close the air completely at the end. Use the stovetop temp as a guide on where you should be at the end of the air adjustment. In between, I prefer to look at the fire to decide when to reduce the air.