Repair advice - Dutchwest non-cat inner top warped

[bormat70]

My Dutchwest Non-Cat 2478 (bought in 2006) has issues, the most pressing being the severely warped top plate (see attachment - note the smiley faced hole where the damper meets the inner top! It's even cracked slightly at the back corners). Also, I'm pretty sure there isn't much left of the "Fountain assembly", and it needs new "Right End Insulation" and "Right End Refractory".

A quick online search showed:
Inner top: $95
Fountain assembly: $279
Right end insulation: $25
Right end refractory: $79
Shipping $?

I think if nothing else I have to replace the inner top because I can't shut the stove down properly and am going through too much wood. For the right end insulation and refractory, I'm not too worried and am tempted not to spend $100 for those parts.

For the fountain assembly, I'm just not sure... How critical is this part? I don't think it held up much after the first year or two. I assume this helps with the stove's efficient burn, perhaps providing a means for the secondary combustion air to be heated up, slowed down, dispersed etc. Should I spend the $ to replace the fountain assembly, or is it just not worth it? I don't think I've noticed a big difference in the stove when the fountain was fresh and new, and now, but it's hard to tell. I know from hearth.com that others have had trouble with the DW stoves.

So a total of about $500 - I could just buy a new stove. But I'm tempted to just replace the inner top and just forget the rest for now. What should I do? I'm concerned that because of the severe warping I might have a hard time getting the stove apart and fit back together with a new inner top. We're also into wood burning season, so I don't want the stove to be out of commission for long (shame on me for not taking care of this in the summer).

I'm hoping an expert here has had to deal with these issues and can give me some common sense direction. Thanks in advance!

P.S. By the way, I figure the warping must've occurred by leaving the ash door open too long - we sometimes open the ash door to get the stove going from coals in the a.m. especially, and to prevent it smoking up the neighborhood after lighting it. But even after now being careful not to let it get too hot when doing this, the warping seems to have gotten worse. So I suspect that the metal might be partially to blame.

 

[branchburner]

I'm afraid some of the repair advice you may hear here is "throw that stove away" because whatever money you sink into it now will be followed by more later, perhaps to no good end. I would not burn it without that new top, but personally would be inclined to get a new stove and/or turn this one either into a "project" stove with a complete rebuild or into a $0 "smoke dragon" stove, to be burned as backup or in a shop without thought to secondary combustion or efficiency.

The fountain assembly is critical, not just helpful, with the stove's efficient burn. Unless that and the other refractory are largely intact and in place, don't count on getting good secondary combustion. That doesn't mean you won't get plenty of heat output, but just that you will essentially be burning what amounts to a pre-EPA smoke dragon rather than a highly efficient EPA unit..

The ashpan door shouldn't be a problem over a minute or two AT THE MOST. But if you forget about it, with a full load... well, forget about it, that's an overfire. These downdraft stoves though are also easily overfired in the normal course of operation with strong draft conditions. I have seen the back of my stove rise above 800f with primary air shut, and the Harmans are generally more well-behaved than the Lopi Leyden or sone VC "NeverBurn" models, which some might term "OverBurn" after watching the back of their stove start to glow.

Tough call, but sometimes better to cut your losses... you could probably pick up a slightly-used NC30 for less than the parts cost for your VC.

 

[bormat70]

Branchburner, thanks a ton. I'm having a hard time accepting that I might have to buy a new stove. I've grown attached to it, but I'll start considering a new one. I've seen the NC30 before, it looks like it would probably work with our existing hearth. I like the ash drawer and the big front glass. I think I'd miss the side loading door that my Dutchwest 2478 has, but that's OK. I wish it had a completely flat-top, for maybe cooking soup or something, but I admit we've never done that with our existing stove. I know there are other stoves out there.

Does lack of smoke equate to efficiency? If so, I'm not sure I'm so bad off.

I don't mean to blatantly ignore your advice - But I have to say that even with the completely messed up inner top, once the 2478 is hot and I have good coals, I don't usually see smoke out of the chimney lately. The first few years, I would hear the "everburn rumble" and see what looked like secondary combustion at the top, but still sometimes see smoke out of the chimney. So this stove is a bit of a mystery. I guess my thoughts are that even when the stove was fresh and new, I could never quite consistently figure out how to get it to not make smoke. I know I've gotten better at burning, plus my firewood is better now, but I almost think this stove works a little better with a partially disintegrated fountain assembly. I wonder if maybe I have enough of the fountain assembly still in place to do the job. I know it had a hole at the top, and I think I laid a piece of firebrick over the hole to sort of seal it up when I last had the stove pipe off last year. As a result, I have half a mind to just replace the inner top now for $100.

The one thing that I would hope for if/when I get a new stove would be a longer burn time in the night - like a true 8 hour burn where I have strong coals that readily light new wood, instead of a few coals covered up with ash where I either need kindling or tons of draft (open ash door) to get going again. It's frustrating having to work to get the thing going in the a.m., only to leave for work and not enjoy it. It's as if once the thing gets hot, the secondary combustion intake lets in too much air (with primary intake shut all the way down) and it burns too fast. Don't tell anyone, but I've thought of attaching some ducting or something to the secondary intake that I can damper down at night.

I could put the Dutchwest in the basement, but I'd have to add an external but boxed-in chimney, since the existing is an internally run pipe going out thru the roof.

Anyway, I'm letting your advice simmer, thanks again.

 

[branchburner]

once the 2478 is hot and I have good coals, I don't usually see smoke out of the chimney lately

even when the stove was fresh and new, I could never quite consistently figure out how to get it to not make smoke

It's as if once the thing gets hot, the secondary combustion intake lets in too much air (with primary intake shut all the way down) and it burns too fast. Don't tell anyone, but I've thought of attaching some ducting or something to the secondary intake

It is possible that without the assembly intact, you are burning hot enough to get a clean burn (which would explain the short burn times). So it's not that the secondary combustion system is really working, just that a good hot fire with dry wood and plenty of air can produce very little smoke, after the initial start up. After all, you've got a ton of secondary air pouring in and excessive draft due to the warped piece (like burning with damper open), with a fire so hot it is creating further warping.

You are probably going through a good bit more wood than optimal to generate useful heat... lack of smoke means the (very hot) fire is burning the smoke, but it doesn't mean YOU are getting that heat. So efficient burn, inefficient heater. I imagine your flue temps are pretty high? (I assume yes.) Do you have any creosote problems? (I assume no.)

Once my father's old Defiant was not burning efficiently, he just burned it like a smoke dragon, with plenty of air and bypass damper open. Not too efficient, short burns and tons of heat up the flue, but fairly clean. A smoke dragon can burn without too much smoke, if it is not shut down to smolder. Dry wood, lots of air and no damper = a hot (clean) fire.

I know what you mean about getting smoke-free burns with this technology -- kinda tricky. Sometimes with bypass open I will get a smoke-free burn while getting the stove up to temp, only to get smoke during the stage of supposedly secondary combustion. Really depends on wood, draft, technique, weather, etc.

Yes, the secondary combustion intake lets in a lot of air, sometimes excessive (even with primary intake shut all the way). I've stuffed foil into the secondary intake to slow the fire, but it is hard to tell if it's too much or too little air other than at that specific stage of a burn. I love the thermostat idea on some stoves, that changes the secondary air flow as needed. I wish I could tweak mine manually, the same as I can with primary... I've considered a modification, but never done it. Probably will end up buying a Woodstock when I get sick of this one.

Bottom line is, you can probably burn your stove as is or with slight repair while still getting good heat, but using more wood with shorter burn times. You are burning clean because you are burning hot, but sending that heat up the flue.

 

[bormat70]

It is possible that without the assembly intact, you are burning hot enough to get a clean burn (which would explain the short burn times). So it's not that the secondary combustion system is really working, just that a good hot fire with dry wood and plenty of air can produce very little smoke, after the initial start up. After all, you've got a ton of secondary air pouring in and excessive draft due to the warped piece (like burning with damper open), with a fire so hot it is creating further warping.

You are probably going through a good bit more wood than optimal to generate useful heat... lack of smoke means the (very hot) fire is burning the smoke, but it doesn't mean YOU are getting that heat. So efficient burn, inefficient heater. I imagine your flue temps are pretty high? (I assume yes.) Do you have any creosote problems? (I assume no.)

Once my father's old Defiant was not burning efficiently, he just burned it like a smoke dragon, with plenty of air and bypass damper open. Not too efficient, short burns and tons of heat up the flue, but fairly clean. A smoke dragon can burn without too much smoke, if it is not shut down to smolder. Dry wood, lots of air and no damper = a hot (clean) fire.

I know what you mean about getting smoke-free burns with this technology -- kinda tricky. Sometimes with bypass open I will get a smoke-free burn while getting the stove up to temp, only to get smoke during the stage of supposedly secondary combustion. Really depends on wood, draft, technique, weather, etc.

Yes, the secondary combustion intake lets in a lot of air, sometimes excessive (even with primary intake shut all the way). I've stuffed foil into the secondary intake to slow the fire, but it is hard to tell if it's too much or too little air other than at that specific stage of a burn. I love the thermostat idea on some stoves, that changes the secondary air flow as needed. I wish I could tweak mine manually, the same as I can with primary... I've considered a modification, but never done it. Probably will end up buying a Woodstock when I get sick of this one.

Bottom line is, you can probably burn your stove as is or with slight repair while still getting good heat, but using more wood with shorter burn times. You are burning clean because you are burning hot, but sending that heat up the flue.

 

[bormat70]

OK, I understand what you mean; clean burn, but heat going up the chimney, I guess that should've been obvious.

I think I've done pretty well with creosote (not much if any) - except that I tend to get a lot of very flaky buildup on the mushroom cap on top of the chimney. I need to clean it a couple times a year, but it comes right off with a wire brush and air compressor. I have about 3 feet of pipe sticking out of the roof. A few times I've seen that 3' section or so have a 1/8" to 1/4" layer of powdery stuff that I can swipe right off with my finger. Further down in the pipe I've never seen much of anything accumulate.

I do tend to load the box chock full and choke it down when I go to bed on cold nights, and I always figured it smoked pretty good until it got hot after that, but being dark, I haven't looked much at the output. I also burn a pretty varied mix of scotch pine, oak, cherry and maple. I always attributed the powery/flaky buildup to the pine, which sometimes I burn a lot of, sometimes not much at all. Depends on what's in the pile. I go thru about 4-5 cords a year here in Michigan, 2200 sq ft house (not including unfinished basement), but I don't burn a whole lot in the shoulder seasons (Oct and April).

I'm starting to now think that I might be pleasantly surprised how much easier a new/different stove would be to work.

 

[branchburner]

I always attributed the powdery/flaky buildup to the pine

I'm starting to now think that I might be pleasantly surprised how much easier a new/different stove would be to work.

Actually, pine will burn as creosote free as any other species, hard or soft -- build up comes from incomplete combustion, which results from unseasoned wood and/or wrong conditions for secondary burn (not enough air, poor draft, poor flue setup, poor stove, poor operation of stove, etc.).

It's not like you're burning ten cords, but yes, I think you would be happy with the longer burns and reduced wood usage that a fully functional EPA stove could produce.

 

[bormat70]

Just a follow up - I decided to spend $115 only and buy a replacement inner top. While a new stove would be great, I can't really afford it right now. Also, I didn't want to shell out for a new fountain assembly and the right side refactory that I need. I replaced the inner top over the weekend. It was really easy getting the stove apart. Just 4 bolts and the outer and inner top came right off. I feared that the warping would have impacted other parts on the stove but it was not the case. It was a pretty easy job. I also cleaned the chimney and replaced all the gaskets, so the entire job took the better part of a Saturday.

The worst part of the job though was the darn fountain assembly. It had a 2 inch wide hole in its top. I tried to stick a vacuum hose down thru the hole to clean out the ash that had formed inside the assembly. Of course this only made the hole bigger... I'd put a broken piece of fire brick over the hole to plug it, and as I tried to replug it when done, the hole just kept getting bigger. So I ended up having to keep breaking more bricks to come up with pieces to cover the ever-growing hole. What a pain. That fountain assembly is just falling apart. I wonder if the newer replacement parts may consist of a more durable material. I assume not. I'm kind of going against @branchburner's advice here, which I really do appreciate. But being stubborn I'm half inclined to buy that part.

The stove got us through last winter OK, and with a functioning damper now, I suspect that we'll do even better this year. But I do realize I am completely sub-optimal with the useless fountain assembly. I just can't believe how fragile that thing is.

Anyway, I just wanted to update everyone in case it helps someone else. Thanks.

ps. A side note - I have about 3-4 years worth of wood in log form to cut and split (and thankfully about 3 years cut and split). Much of it is hard-splitting standing dead black cherry. Pretty sure I'm going to give a 27" Fiskars a shot. My 6lb. traditional maul just doesn't cut it on the stringy, twisty cherry pieces, or on some of the knotty Scotch pine I get. I figure I need either a super heavy maul, or maybe something like the Fiskars, or both. For $60 the Fiskars seems worth trying.

 

[branchburner]

I wonder if the newer replacement parts may consist of a more durable material. I assume not.

I know Harman now make a more solid and duable combustion package, but no idea about your part -- you might try starting a new thread to get more inpu.

[/quote] I figure I need either a super heavy maul, or maybe something like the Fiskars, or both. For $60 the Fiskars seems worth trying.[/quote]

The Fiskars is great, but won't work miracles. I now have a splitter, so anything that doesn't split really easily with the Fiskars gets the hydraulic ram. I have split a fair amount of cherry by hand, but leave the tough stuff for later. You might consider splitting as much as possible by hand and then renting/borrowing a splitter after a year or two of accumulating the uglies.