Revisiting fire brick

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Some of the pumice firebricks in my one year old stove are starting to deteriorate. I did some research, here, and found a good debate on the topic in a thread which was closed about four years ago.

My entry level stove came with the lightweight pumice brick (deteriorating after one season). The more upscale version of my stove (Osburn) comes with higher density ceramic firebrick.

In the aforementioned four year old thread, the gentleman that was employed at the company that makes my stove (@FyreBug ) stated, without reservation, the reason that the lower-end models shipped with the pumice bricks was to save on shipping, and the marketing department spun the pumice brick as having superior insulating qualities. For me, this was the crux of the debate. The counter argument was that the pumice actually was superior, because of a higher insulation value.

Now that I have to think about replacing the bricks, my judgement tells me to go with the higher density brick for a six reasons:

1. They will hold up better (one year is not a great showing);

2. Fyrebug's opinion on the topic (inside information is very valuable when you can get it legally);

3. The fact that the higher-end models use the ceramic instead of pumice;

4. Getting even a little more heat transferred to the outside of the stove would be valuable;

5. A higher heat retention because of the higher mass of the ceramic brick; and,

6. The higher density ceramic brick seems to be more readily available (less important to me than 1-5).

The only potential downsides I can see are: Maybe (a big maybe), slightly higher emissions as the heat might be transferred out of the center of the stove, and slightly different clearance numbers. I'll check the manuals on the lower end and higher end versions of my stove, but I believe the clearances are identical.

Seems like a slam dunk to me. Please tell me what I am missing.

 

[bholler]

In my experince good pumice brick hold up longer than standard ones. Mine are 5 years old and not showing to much wear at all. The main difference I see is that standard brick are very brittle and crack easily pumice ones do not they do wear though.

Then you have the fact that by switching to standard brick you are voiding the warantee and listing of the stove. It was designed with the pumice brick in mind and that is what should be there. I don't buy fyre bugs reasoning at all. Yes it would save a little on shipping but pumice brick cost about 3 times what standard brick do so I cant see much savings there.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

In my experince good pumice brick hold up longer than standard ones. Mine are 5 years old and not showing to much wear at all. The main difference I see is that standard brick are very brittle and crack easily pumice ones do not they do wear though.

Then you have the fact that by switching to standard brick you are voiding the warantee and listing of the stove. It was designed with the pumice brick in mind and that is what should be there. I don't buy fyre bugs reasoning at all. Yes it would save a little on shipping but pumice brick cost about 3 times what standard brick do so I cant see much savings there.

Thanks bholler, you know I always value your responses. That said, I would like to ask you, pointedly, how much experience do you have with the SBI line of stoves? And, if you have little to none, have you put the time in to do your research before providing responses about them?

The Flame (that I have, and presumably Drolet and Century) versions of the SBI stoves must ship with some pretty crappy version of the pumice brick, based on my experience. The vermiculite baffle cracked in half as well after one season. Their warranty response has been excellent on the baffle, there is no warranty on the firebrick for any of the SBI stoves.

The Osburn 2000, Enerzone 2.3, Flame 1.9, Drolet 1800, Century CW2900, and all have identical engines (welded steel box, secondary tubes, frame, etc.). I bet they all roll off the same assembly line.

The differences are, the consumables, the finish items, and the warranties.

The higher-end Osburn and Enerzone have longer warranties, and use ceramic brick, and c-cast baffles. The Flame, Drolet, and Century use pumice brick and vermiculite baffles. All of their manuals that lay out this information are available through the SBI website. All of which directly corresponds with Fyrebugs comments (see link, below for the thread).

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/regular-and-light-weight-firebrick-differences.92242/

The replacement SBI ceramic bricks (SBI part number 29020) are $8 direct. The replacement pumice bricks (SBI part number 29010) are $5 direct.

And, their clearances are the same, per their manuals.

http://www.sbi-international.com/en/our-brands/

bholler, I know you take a great deal of pride in your knowledge and experience, and well earned and deserved. I generally take your advice as a given. That said, does it seem wise to contradict the opinions of an employee insider (fyrebug)? You said that you don't buy his reasoning, but it was not his reasoning, it was knowledge gained by being an employee of the company, with access to the engineering and testing results, and conversations between the marketing and finance departments.

SBI is increasingly popular and well marketed line of products that you will want to be familiar with.

 

[webby3650]

I've installed lots of SBI stoves. I'm yet to do any service work on one that I can recall. They are solid heaters!

 

[bholler]

That said, I would like to ask you, pointedly, how much experience do you have with the SBI line of stoves? And, if you have little to none, have you put the time in to do your research before providing responses about them?

I have installed a dozen or so and work on 30 to 40 a year. And honestly as I said before I replace more cracked regular firebrick than I do pumice ones. And the standard brick splits cost me a little over $1 while the pumic ones are close to $4. So yes I would say they are using really cheap ones in their stoves.

And btw after working on century stoves and osburns no they are not the same stove at all. There is cross over between the lines but I have never seen any osburns and centuries that were the same.

As far as questioning industry insiders why wouldn't I they are wrong plenty of times to just as I am. I expect people to call me out and correct me if I am wrong so why wouldn't I do the same. Did you not notice that many many others called him out in that thread for his false claims that the insulation values were the same many others posted those values and he did not. So yes I call bs on his claims.

 

[webby3650]

I have installed a dozen or so and work on 30 to 40 a year. And honestly as I said before I replace more cracked regular firebrick than I do pumice ones. And the standard brick splits cost me a little over $1 while the pumic ones are close to $4. So yes I would say they are using really cheap ones in their stoves.

And btw after working on century stoves and osburns no they are not the same stove at all. There is cross over between the lines but I have never seen any osburns and centuries that were the same.

As far as questioning industry insiders why wouldn't I they are wrong plenty of times to just as I am. I expect people to call me out and correct me if I am wrong so why wouldn't I do the same. Did you not notice that many many others called him out in that thread for his false claims that the insulation values were the same many others posted those values and he did not. So yes I call bs on his claims.

Guess I missed something? Bogus claims, maybe. I don't see how anyone could baulk at sbi quality though. Honestly I don't remember this guy.

 

[bholler]

I don't see how anyone could baulk at sbi quality though.

Absolutly not i have no issue at all with their stoves or the company at all the pa guild booth was right next to theirs at the national convention in lancaster and talked with the Cantins quite a bit. They are good guys Also spent some time with their r&d guy I cant remember his name. He was asking allot of sweeps their opinions about chimney systems because they were releasing theirs.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

I have installed a dozen or so and work on 30 to 40 a year. And honestly as I said before I replace more cracked regular firebrick than I do pumice ones. And the standard brick splits cost me a little over $1 while the pumic ones are close to $4. So yes I would say they are using really cheap ones in their stoves.

And btw after working on century stoves and osburns no they are not the same stove at all. There is cross over between the lines but I have never seen any osburns and centuries that were the same.

As far as questioning industry insiders why wouldn't I they are wrong plenty of times to just as I am. I expect people to call me out and correct me if I am wrong so why wouldn't I do the same. Did you not notice that many many others called him out in that thread for his false claims that the insulation values were the same many others posted those values and he did not. So yes I call bs on his claims.

I expected a good honest reply from you and that's just what I got. My guess is that that there are many more than two types of bricks, and are they are different all over (I should have known this, as I worked one summer over college at a vitrified brickyard, and bricks were different even from batch to batch). Also, I should say that SBI has acquired a number of other brands over the years through acquisition, so while I believe that all the engines are the same today, before Century (and others) were bought and brought into the fold, the engines were undoubtedly different. Check the specs in the manuals now (if you are interested). So, my research into the current situation is trumped by your experience, and I am smarter for it. Good, valuable, perspective. It would be great to hear from a current employee of SBI in the know, but I'm certain that exposing trade secrets would be an express ticket to unemployment.

You think if ordered the higher cost bricks spec'd to the Osburn to replace the ones that failed in my Flame that they'd void my warranty? Or if I replaced the failed ones with either the $1 standard or $4 pumice bholler specials that they'd void it?

 

[bholler]

You think if ordered the higher cost bricks spec'd to the Osburn to replace the ones that failed in my Flame that they'd void my warranty? Or if I replaced the failed ones with either the $1 standard or $4 pumice bholler specials that they'd void it?

You would have to ask them not me

 

[bholler]

And btw those prices are what I pay not what I sell them for I am sure that sbi pays way less than what I do. well maybe not or the standard ones because I just drive 1.5 miles down the road to the brick plant that makes them.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

You would have to ask them not me

I already know the answer, but I enjoyed your smart businesslike response!

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

And btw those prices are what I pay not what I sell them for I am sure that sbi pays way less than what I do. well maybe not or the standard ones because I just drive 1.5 miles down the road to the brick plant that makes them.

Why do you think I referred to them as "bholler specials"?

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

You would have to ask them not me

OK, I'll ask a different question- if you were servicing my one year old, self-installed stove, would you order the OEM SBI bricks from the Flame (or Drolet or Century) owners manual, the ones that we both know are inferior and would likely require replacing again in a year? Or would you install the ones from 1.5 mile down the road from you, and thereby void my warranty?

 

[bholler]

OK, I'll ask a different question- if you were servicing my one year old, self-installed stove, would you order the OEM SBI bricks from the Flame (or Drolet or Century) owners manual, the ones that we both know are inferior and would likely require replacing again in a year? Or would you install the ones from 1.5 mile down the road from you, and thereby void my warranty?

I would install the pumice ones that I know hold up better. I only use the standard brick in old smoke dragons really. Or in building fireboxes smoke chambers ect. But honestly I know of quite a few sbi stoves out there that don't go through bricks that fast. I think you need to load more gently lol. Seriously you may have just gotten a bad batch of brick I would try calling sbi about it see if they will do anything for you. It never hurts to ask.

 

[T-roy_]

Thanks bholler, you know I always value your responses. That said, I would like to ask you, pointedly, how much experience do you have with the SBI line of stoves? And, if you have little to none, have you put the time in to do your research before providing responses about them?

The Flame (that I have, and presumably Drolet and Century) versions of the SBI stoves must ship with some pretty crappy version of the pumice brick, based on my experience. The vermiculite baffle cracked in half as well after one season. Their warranty response has been excellent on the baffle, there is no warranty on the firebrick for any of the SBI stoves.

The Osburn 2000, Enerzone 2.3, Flame 1.9, Drolet 1800, Century CW2900, and all have identical engines (welded steel box, secondary tubes, frame, etc.). I bet they all roll off the same assembly line.

The differences are, the consumables, the finish items, and the warranties.

The higher-end Osburn and Enerzone have longer warranties, and use ceramic brick, and c-cast baffles. The Flame, Drolet, and Century use pumice brick and vermiculite baffles. All of their manuals that lay out this information are available through the SBI website. All of which directly corresponds with Fyrebugs comments (see link, below for the thread).

https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/regular-and-light-weight-firebrick-differences.92242/

The replacement SBI ceramic bricks (SBI part number 29020) are $8 direct. The replacement pumice bricks (SBI part number 29010) are $5 direct.

And, their clearances are the same, per their manuals.

http://www.sbi-international.com/en/our-brands/

bholler, I know you take a great deal of pride in your knowledge and experience, and well earned and deserved. I generally take your advice as a given. That said, does it seem wise to contradict the opinions of an employee insider (fyrebug)? You said that you don't buy his reasoning, but it was not his reasoning, it was knowledge gained by being an employee of the company, with access to the engineering and testing results, and conversations between the marketing and finance departments.

SBI is increasingly popular and well marketed line of products that you will want to be familiar with.

My Drolet HT-2000 has a C-cast baffle. IIRC the Drolet Myriad, Baltic, Legend and Austral now use C-cast as well.

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

I would install the pumice ones that I know hold up better. I only use the standard brick in old smoke dragons really. Or in building fireboxes smoke chambers ect. But honestly I know of quite a few sbi stoves out there that don't go through bricks that fast. I think you need to load more gently lol. Seriously you may have just gotten a bad batch of brick I would try calling sbi about it see if they will do anything for you. It never hurts to ask.

You are not wrong about loading it gently! I was focusing on not banging on the baffle above, and honestly,even though I never touched it, it split in half anyway. But that was covered under warranty. I think that the wear in the bricks was caused by the nubs on the wood, the ash rake, etc. I've enjoyed the conversation and recognize the good advice. Now, I just need to find my own local firebrick seller that carries the pumice ones...,

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

My Drolet HT-2000 has a C-cast baffle. IIRC the Drolet Myriad, Baltic, Legend and Austral now use C-cast as well.

Thanks for the info T-roy. I just was looking at the analogues to my insert, but that is good information. Looks like they are taking the Drolet line upscale, starting with the freestanding, the inserts are sure to follow. I think they are going to drop the Flame line, as they have already removed it as a brand listed on the SBI corporate website (but they are still honoring the warranty for the Flame!). If i was an executive there, I'd definitely take the Drolet line upscale, even the name sounds fancy (once I realized that it was pronounced drolay instead of drolet).

 

[Poindexter]

Ed, poke around for a pottery guild. Often they get together and order a pallet of very high quality pumice bricks for their homebuilt kilns.

My last stove had pumice brick in it. The replacements i got from the potters guild, boy thise were great.

 

[T-roy_]

Thanks for the info T-roy. I just was looking at the analogues to my insert, but that is good information. Looks like they are taking the Drolet line upscale, starting with the freestanding, the inserts are sure to follow. I think they are going to drop the Flame line, as they have already removed it as a brand listed on the SBI corporate website (but they are still honoring the warranty for the Flame!). If i was an executive there, I'd definitely take the Drolet line upscale, even the name sounds fancy (once I realized that it was pronounced drolay instead of drolet).

Chevrolet-Chevy Drolet-Droly??

 

[Easy Livin’ 3000]

Ed, poke around for a pottery guild. Often they get together and order a pallet of very high quality pumice bricks for their homebuilt kilns.

My last stove had pumice brick in it. The replacements i got from the potters guild, boy thise were great.

Thanks Poindexter, good tip, I'll keep my eyes open. Now if I could just find a good local producer of solar firewood kilns, I'd be in business! Seriously though, you've inspired me to put one together. I have a roll of solar pool cover secured for the wrap. I'd like to do one at least two cords in volume, and just need to figure out the frame. Stay tuned!

 

[FyreBug]

I Did you not notice that many many others called him out in that thread for his false claims that the insulation values were the same many others posted those values and he did not. So yes I call bs on his claims.

Well I have been away from the industry for over 3 years and no longer have an axe to grind. I have also moved to a new house with no wood heating which I miss very much.

So these "false claims" of insulation value??? I have worked for a forge for over 3 years and we employ a variety of insulating materials in our ovens including bricks. Insulating materials in forges make a big difference at the sustained "higher heat" employed.

The point I was making initially, is that at lower temp wood stoves operate at - different bricks as baffle material makes squat of difference on actual performance (efficiencies, emissions) as test results have proven. You don't have to believe me on this. Two lines of reasoning come into play 1) if it makes even a slight difference on performance Mfg's would be all over this and claim it on their marketing material and back it with test results 2) If there was performance improvement in efficiencies/emission (as it would if combustion temps were slightly higher or lower due to change of baffle material); EPA would insist this material and only this material be used (ie pumice bricks). As it is EPA allows either.

In conclusion, there can very well be different insulating values between bricks but... as insulating material application as a baffle material in a wood stove it makes little or no difference for that application. Unless somebody can back it up with real science and real data...

Now as to whether one is preferable mechanically, pricing or other reference point is a what these forums are for.

 

[bholler]

The point I was making initially, is that at lower temp wood stoves operate at - different bricks as baffle material makes squat of difference on actual performance (efficiencies, emissions) as test results have proven.

No you argued that the regular firebrick had a higher insulation value and lasted longer than pumic brick. And that is what I said was false. And what others provided info to refute.

If there was performance improvement in efficiencies/emission (as it would if combustion temps were slightly higher or lower due to change of baffle material); EPA would insist this material and only this material be used (ie pumice bricks). As it is EPA allows either.

The epa does not require anything of stoves other that the end result they dont care how you get there so this reasoning does not make sense

In conclusion, there can very well be different insulating values between bricks but... as insulating material application as a baffle material in a wood stove it makes little or no difference for that application. Unless somebody can back it up with real science and real data...

I don't have that data but if insulation value of baffles didn't matter then why do most manufacturers use insulated baffles now? And when determining clearances wouldn't the insulating value of the brick liner matter quite a bit?

 

[FyreBug]

No you argued that the regular firebrick had a higher insulation value and lasted longer than pumic brick. And that is what I said was false. And what others provided info to refute.


The epa does not require anything of stoves other that the end result they dont care how you get there so this reasoning does not make sense


I don't have that data but if insulation value of baffles didn't matter then why do most manufacturers use insulated baffles now? And when determining clearances wouldn't the insulating value of the brick liner matter quite a bit?

1) I have to re-read my threat but If I made that statement then I am wrong & apologize

2) Not true. As per EPA emissions/efficiency results must be reproducible on production appliances. Any production/engineering changes affecting emissions/efficiency stove must go through re-testing and re-certification. So if a pumice brick or heavier brick made a squat of difference you would have to certify for one and keep using to one type or certify for both type of bricks.

3) Data is everything my friend. Why do MFG use insulation blankets? Because it improves EPA emissions not for the reasons you think. While it ads a marginal increase in insulation value, the blanket captures some particulates (especially new brand spanking one ie. testing) therefore improving the test results. MFG's labs use all sorts of tricks to improve test results. That's just one of them.

My advice is not to get too hot under the collar (pardon the pun) and if you want real answers why not write your favourite MFG with those questions. Not sure you'll get a straight answer but its worth a shot.

PS. While the data a saw proves the point the baffle insulation has limited value on the baffle application that is not the case for the side insulation. ie. higher insulation value improves performance. Although its not by huge order or magnitude.We're not talking about forging ovens here...

 

[bholler]

2) Not true. As per EPA emissions/efficiency results must be reproducible on production appliances. Any production/engineering changes affecting emissions/efficiency stove must go through re-testing and re-certification. So if a pumice brick or heavier brick made a squat of difference you would have to certify for one and keep using to one type or certify for both type of bricks.

Yes absolutely the stove needs to be tested as it will be sold you cannot change the bricks after testing for ul or epa. Are you saying that stove manufacturers change the bricks after testing???? You say later in your post that both do affect the performance so how could they do that?

3) Data is everything my friend. Why do MFG use insulation blankets? Because it improves EPA emissions not for the reasons you think. While it ads a marginal increase in insulation value, the blanket captures some particulates (especially new brand spanking one ie. testing) therefore improving the test results. MFG's labs use all sorts of tricks to improve test results. That's just one of them.

What about those who do not use insulation blankets? Many have gone away from them due to issues. Why spend the money on an insulating board baffle when standard firebrick or steel are cheaper? You want us to provide data but you have not provided any at all. I find it very hard to believe that stove manufacturers use insulated baffles and pumice firebrick. Many also have insulation behind that firebrick for no reason at all.

PS. While the data a saw proves the point the baffle insulation has limited value on the baffle application that is not the case for the side insulation. ie. higher insulation value improves performance. Although its not by huge order or magnitude.

What do you mean by it has limited value? that means there is some value right? And as for side insulation (which btw is what we are talking about here for the most part when we talk about firebrick) When you say improves performance are you also referring to the clearances?

 

[bholler]

1) I have to re-read my threat but If I made that statement then I am wrong & apologize

Ok I want back and re read it you did not say the standard had a higher insulating value but you did say they were all but identical. Which was what I objected to. And you are stuck just on efficiency numbers but there are many other factors that go into wood stove performance. One of the most important is safe clearances. And if you change the insulation value of the sides and bottom where those firebrick are you will change those clearances.