Ripping Elk off here but "Question of the Day"

[Shane]

My question has a couple parts
1.) Is it just me or does the hearth industry have a higher number of what I'll call "Quasi-professionals" or people who know half of what they should and represent themselves as pros.
2.) What do you think are the contributing problems to this issue?
2a.) Lack of industry regulation? (licensing or certification requirements)
2b.) Lack of consumer education/knowledge

Before a bunch of installers jump down my throat showing their feather in defense of their professionalism saying I don't need no damn certification, know that I am not talking about you if you are a true pro. But would it not help the industry in general if there were something to prevent any idiot from "throwing on a top hat, and calling his or herself a sweep/installer".

 

[webbie]

Well, to answer a question with another question?

What is an idiot with certification? (a certified idiot?).

I am 100% behind all the education and certification, but if the particular person is not of sufficient mechanical aptitude, all the training in the world will not help much. As we can see by all the situations here, this IS rocket science! Or at the very least, it requires extensive knowledge AND the ability to speed read (look at those 50 page manuals) plus common sense.

20 years ago I started installing Tarm boilers - along with my installer who went to trade school for plumbing. The manual for these boilers was about 10 pages of instructions - as I remember, about 36 steps. The end result was a perfectly installed multi-fuel (oil wood) boiler. I think most hearth manufacturers do not spend enough time on their manuals - to simplify them and make the information clear. The testing process only requires that the information be there, not that it be understandable!

I think a good stove installer is like a good carpenter - someone who knows how to fix mistakes! There is no amount of training that can instill this ability if it is not already there (my opinion only).

It's like comparing a remodeling contractor like Elk (or myself in a former life) to a guy who is on a framing crew. Remodeling is probably 10 times as difficult. Same with stove installs.....compared to, say, installation of prefab fireplaces in new houses.

Luckily we have a new crew of young stove guys and gals taking the flag and running with it. Corie is gonna lead them all to victory!

 

[titan]

When all else fails-read the directions. :ahhh:

 

[elkimmeg]

I do not feel ripped off but agree with your concerns. So I'm going to do a roll reversal and act like Craig . Many dedicated craftsmen do a good job at their skils
We on the forum, only hear of the ones where they do not have the necessary skill level. In this world it sems it takes pride to preform what one is suspose to. But in the chase for the almight $$$ this pride gets lost. I found out long ago I could have good skills but If I left a messy job the skills level was overlooked, If I took 10 extra minutes and cleaned up a bit ,I was appreciatedm a lot more. Similar with excavating ,I found out If I took an extra half hour and back bladed the job , people were amazed I took the extra time to make it more presentable

I never advertised most of my work resulted by word of mouth you are as good as the last job you did. I don't know how one installs this attitude I always did to my workers.


In many case it is not the skill level but the desire or pride in workmanship that is missing licence programs may achieve this but one has to want to be that way.

Part of my posting the failed inspection of the donor installation was for others to learn. You bet I uttered a few silent swear words, But I knew what had to be done so might as well do it and do it right. To the point of taking extra time and firing up the stove and explaining what to expect and how to opperate it. I was there 2 more hours than expected, but not all things go according to plan. ITs one thing to give advice here ,its another thing to be as annal as the advice I give and get things done right.

Damn pat pat my arm seems to be hitting my back sorry firebug

 

[Harley]

Part of my posting the failed inspection of the donor installation was for others to learn. You bet I uttered a few silent swear words,

Not to go off topic, Elk, but I'm just guessing there may have been more than a few, and they probably all weren't silent :cheese:

 

[elkimmeg]

Well you got that right a few and I still uttering them under my breath but its done

 

[MrGriz]

Unfortunately, it seems as though were headed for a time where craftsmanship and taking pride in ones work are being replaced by chasing a quick buck and a lax attitude towards ones work. Not just the stove industry, but in many areas.

It's not rocket science. Like Elk pointed out, it's taking the little extra effort and time to do things right and put the finishing touches on things.

 

[keyman512us]

I would lean towards 2b as the answer...but in greater detail...To quote (Mr.Griz always brings up echo's of good points before I can chime in)

Unfortunately, it seems as though were headed for a time where craftsmanship and taking pride in ones work are being replaced by chasing a quick buck and a lax attitude towards ones work. Not just the stove industry, but in many areas.

It’s not rocket science. Like Elk pointed out, it’s taking the little extra effort and time to do things right and put the finishing touches on things.

Depends on exactly how "philosophical you want to get". I would say 2b is the "answer all the way around the boards"...that is the answer to your question...but not the root cause of the problem. The absolute basic problem with the "Entire Human Race" IMHO...is just that: It has become a race "To Nowhere"...and it all boils down to TIME. Time wasted,time spent,time trying to be saved...time doesn't change for anything...no matter how hard you try.
My favorite movie line of all time was in the "Shaw-shank Redemption(The Brooks Hadlin charachter saying)...'The World went and got itself in a big damn hurry'...."

"Everyone wants to speed everything up...only problem is the Human being will always be the same old model."

Now I want you to think about that for a second. "Every new generation" tries to go faster than the one before it? WHY,WHY,WHY,WHY???? WHAT'S THE BIG DAMN HURRY????

I'm a (Licensed) Profesional...I carry a piece of paper in my pocket issued by the same state agency giving the same piece of paper to the Doctors or Lawyers you might call upon for services. The only difference? You wouldn't dare rush them even though they make a helluva lot more $/hr than me...but their piece of paper entitles them to different treatment.

Why point this out? Because when people are under pressure...they make mistakes. The world, the economy and most importantly PEOPLE push "the trend". People today are their own worst enemy. You can't fix it with more regulations,certifications,training and etc. and etc. The basic human nature is what needs to change.
In case you are wondering I'm an Electrician...we take alot of ^hit from the public...some deserved..some not. Current trends are moving towards more regs, training, etc...less emphasis is being placed on basic pricipals. When I was coming up in the trade the basics were stressed in simple terms: "...All work shall be done in a neat and workmanlike manner". Today? That's out the window...because you gotta be able to interpret things like a lawyer...instead of a trade proffesional...add into the equation the $$'s behind the "promulgation of standards" you got a recipe for a mess.
It's true whether you are installing wires or stoves or whatever. So called "professionals"??? Well maybe "consumers" need to slow down, do their homework and carefully size up who they are "doing business with".
I don't know exactly what your situation is...sounds like you came across a "real winner". Just because something "isn't ROCKET SCIENCE" doesn't mean there isn't a need for "education" ...just depends on "how much effort people put into a given task".

Rocket Science? Yeah good example...rocket scientists build a probe to go to Mars...launch it and it crashes and burns...why you ask? Because Team 'A' didn't ask Team 'B' whether the rate of de-accellaration was figured in Metric or Standard equivalent terms... true genius at work!

"...You can hand a PHD in Astro-Physics a screwdriver...there is a 50/50 chance he is gonna know which end to use...the bottom line is this: It isn't what you know...but how you use it..."

Draw a shape on a piece of plexiglass...now take a bunch of blocks of wood and push them around all day on the plexi-glass...What is this you ask? The basic principle the US NAVY uses to control multi-million $$$ fighter aircraft on the deck of an aircraft carrier...

"You take a piece of paper...write down a bunch of info on it...and pass it from person to person around the room" What is this called you ask? The "Data Block" concept...the basic foundation of modern air traffic control...think of that next time you jump on a shiny big jet plane headed somewhere.


"But hey...It's NOT ROCKET SCIENCE"...

...PERSPECTIVE...Think about it...

 

[keyman512us]

...The perspective thing? Kinda along the lines of "Seeing the Forest through the trees...or the trees through the forest?"

Let's put a $ amount into play...and a new question for tomorrow (today).

Anyone check out this thread:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/7223/

SVN-15 wasn't a Navy ship...It was an AF one!

Why point this out? Well it's not rocket science...but the (military)men and women that were "in charge" of SVN-15...In the eyes of the AF they are considered "pilots"...we used to (jokingly)refer to them as "Nintendo Operators"