Dealer/MFG's Discussions what about this....

[Shane]

We've been having alot of discussion about the balance of dealer/mfg. support. This question goes along those lines and may touch on one of the major problems in our industry.

This is an actual example of real events protrayed as un-biased as I possibly can.

There is a dealer, he sells many products for a company. Many of the sales are obtained through unscrupulous practices not unlike what Mike was explaining in the 1-800 support # post. Almost all of the masonry fireplaces that this dealer sees have had a "chimney fire" and all the customer has to do is call the insurance co. and pay the deductible and whammo new insert & liner. You see the caliber.
Said dealer illegally installs a gas line & lp stove. No permits, I personally talked to the previous owners and they said they physically saw the dealer installing the gas line. Big no, no. No license no gas line install period. The stoves are installed and the house changes owners over a span of 6 months. The new owners get a call, their home has been blown to pieces. Literally toothpick size pieces with a crater in the ground. This compounded with all the "little" complaints (lack of service, improper installations etc.) would surely guarantee that the manufacturer will be looking for a better dealerto represent their products right? Nope, the manufacturer is "self insured" and the dealer sells a large enough volume that he's worth the risk. GREED. And that is the problem right there, the number of units leaving the door often weighs more on a manufacturers perception of what a "good" dealer is than customer service & proper installation. So out of curiosity what are your thoughts on this situation, which I realize is the extreme case, and others like it.

 

[webbie]

It is probably illegal (fair trade) for a manufacturer to cut off a dealer unless these practices were 100% verified in a court of law.

Keep in mind that BUSINESS is the business of our government and country. Only if public health (en masse) is threatened is the government likely to trump the commercial codes.

The real risk is, in a way, determined by the price of insurance. Few companies can be 100% self-insured - more likely they have re-insurance for very high awards and are insured for up a certain amount in-house.

The risks of motorcycles, ATV's and other such items are quite large also....but again, as long as the manufacturers, dealers and users are willing to pay into the pot they are likely to be legal risks.

Did they ever trace the problem to the stove? In my experience, it has usually been something else that failed. For instance, gas valves that have become wet or moist in the basement have been known to fail. My relatively expensive kitchen range - for instance - has a problem that if you bump against the controls just a tiny bit, gas can flow and the spark ignition does not start! One time I walked in the front door and the smell hit me like a ton of bricks.....I am more careful with it now.

 

[Gooserider]

First, I don't think the manufacturer has a great deal of liability, provided that their documentation specifies correct procedures, etc. Otherwise it's like blaming a car maker for drunk driving. This also assumes the mfgr was not "officially" aware that the improper dealings were going on.

OTOH, the dealer should be getting severe investigation, which should result in jail time and / or restitution requirements if it can be documented that what you say is accurate. (Fraud is a crime....)

Now if it can be shown that there was collusion between the Mfgr and the dealer, where the mfgr had discussed this type of action with the dealer, or that there were other definite reasons for the mfgr to know that this dealer wasn't kosher then there might be reason to find the mfgr liable as well, but IMHO that takes a much higher standard.

The other question is if the mfgr had gotten a significant number of complaints alleging illegal / unsafe practices to justify saying anything to the proper authorities, which comes down to the same sort of question we as individuals face about whether or not to "dime out" someone that may be doing wrong, but isn't hurting us?

Gooserider

 

[Czech]

Craig, don't kitchen ranges esp the expensive ones have a thermocouple on the burners? I know my KitchenAid does. I'm in the school that volitile gas detectors should be right up there with CO and Smoke. A relative small expense with a potential huge return.

 

[Shane]

I think maybe my point is being missed. I'll try again.
1. I have come to conclusion that many consumers want to be able to contact the manufacturer in the case of an underperforming dealer not getting back to them etc.
2. From my example above and many others in the industry there are many manufacturers that are basing their definition of "good dealer" on volume not customer service, etc.

My point being that shouldn't the manufacturers take a slightly more pro-active stance on ensuring dealer quality?

I was not trying to make any point on whether or not the manufacturer would be held liable in a situation as outlined above, but rather shouldn't there be a moral red flag shooting up saying is this the guy best suited to represent our line?

 

[BrotherBart]

I think maybe my point is being missed. I'll try again.
1. I have come to conclusion that many consumers want to be able to contact the manufacturer in the case of an underperforming dealer not getting back to them etc.
2. From my example above and many others in the industry there are many manufacturers that are basing their definition of "good dealer" on volume not customer service, etc.

My point being that shouldn't the manufacturers take a slightly more pro-active stance on ensuring dealer quality?

I was not trying to make any point on whether or not the manufacturer would be held liable in a situation as outlined above, but rather shouldn't there be a moral red flag shooting up saying is this the guy best suited to represent our line?

Shane I think it is and always will be that the manufacturer is only going to judge a dealer by sale volume. Believing that if the dealer is doing a crappy job then sales in the dealer's area are going to drop reflecting the quality of the work.

About all the manufacturer has to go by his how much iron they ship to the dealer. That is quantifiable. Customer bitching isn't. And since stoves are a long term purchase they aren't looking to sell that customer another stove for a long time anyway.

It is a little different in the stove business because in the grand scheme of things there are not a lot of stove dealers. Manufacturers either for that matter. With the typical one dealer per town situation you have in the average sized town in the U.S. if the bum isn't selling for them in that town then nobody is selling for them in that town. Now in the 70's and early 80's I had people dragging me in off the street to sell me a stove. Not the situation today.

 

[Gooserider]

Another thing is that it can be difficult sometimes to qualify whether the complaining is legitimate or not... There is a Guzzi dealer I do a fair bit of business with in OH, to the extent that a Guzzi needs parts.

The dealer lives on a farm out in the middle of nowhere, with the shop in the barn, so he has minimal overhead.
His stock rate is over 90%, so its a nearly sure thing that if you call him he will have the part.
Because he lives on the farm / shop, there is almost always somebody there to answer the phone and take your order.
He ships daily by UPS, and if desperate will do overnight, charge is what it costs him.
He doesn't do credit cards, instead he throws a bill in the box and asks you to mail him a check when you get the parts.
He usually charges less than MFG suggested list for the parts.

My local dealer costs more, is less likely to have the part, and doesn't deliver to my door....

For some reason, %-P this guy is one of the biggest Guzzi parts dealers in the world, even though he doesn't sell all that many bikes.

He says that he has had several times where Guzzi has threatened to take his dealership away because the other dealers complain about his prices. Never mind that he is a perfect example of great customer service....

Nowadays he tends to quote MFG list over the phone, but when you get the bill its for less than he quoted - keeps him out of trouble

Gooserider

 

[stoveguy2esw]

hmmmm. lets do some math...make 5 bucks a sale 100 times, or make 50 bucks a sale 2 or 3 times... because you only get the sales from the guys that didnt research... guess the guys that were getting fewer sales because they were making the biggest profit margin werent making the most money. no wonder the "establishment " was wanting him out , now the manufacturer shouldnt be upset monetarily, they were selling the parts at the same profit level to the dealer in question...who obviously likes selling more stuff for a smaller margin and in the end is getting the lions share of the buisness.... ya gotta love capitalism

 

[webbie]

[quote author="GotzTheHotz" date="1167348026"]Craig, don't kitchen ranges esp the expensive ones have a thermocouple on the burners? I know my KitchenAid does. I'm in the school that volitile gas detectors should be right up there with CO and Smoke. A relative small expense with a potential huge return.[/quote

No detector that I know of.....but maybe.....it sparks until it is lit. But when the knob is slightly turned, the gas flows and the sparks do not ignite. I will look carefully at the burner design.

 

[stoveguy2esw]

ok shane , ive had my fun, now i will adress your issue. my opinion the guy doing the install should be paying a morgage for the fellow who got his house blown up after he got out of jail for reckless endangerment and destruction of property, unpermitted gas work??? apparantly this guy already had a rep for doing shoddy work ( the aforementioned chimney fires could be written off as operator error, but a large percentage??? i find that doubtful) the manufacturer should look at this if its an ongoing thing. now as the manufacturer didnt do the installation, they arent directly responsable, but if this guy has had complaint after complaint lodged against him , sooner or later the manufacturer should get involved in my opinion. this type of dealer could cause publicity that could be detrimental to the manufacturers product even if there is no fault of the product involved. just using an example (no elk im not picking on VC just making a point using them as an example, ive already stated my admiration of their product) they had a run of bad publicity several years back, they have come out of it with a superior product than they had in that time by far , one of the leaders of the industry, but people still look at the time when they were looked at in a lesser light. is it fair , heck no, as i said they build a great product line at this time and will likely continue to, but that bugaboo is still there in some minds. im saying this to make the point that this gas stove manufacturer, even if they are the safest , best built brand on the market, can possibly have somthing like this hanging over their heads even though they have that great product that wasnt at fault simply because this below par dealer screwed up. what if (thank god it didnt happen) sombody had been in the home when it blew up? if it bacame public knowledge that the unit involved(even though it was a safe unit and the house went up due to shoddy unpermitted work) had somthing to do with it , where would that leave the manufacturer???

 

[stoveguy2esw]

ya know, i have to take my hat off to Mass. as big a PITA as the beaurocracy is to deal with , i gotta hand it to them on the way they do some things, they have state certifications that must be obtained before an installer can even work an install. i went up to boston in 2004 , when mass went imc and allowed vent free gas. had to drive up from Va. twice , first time to the winthrop town hall, where the mass board of plumbers and gasfitters were to meet. was a rubber stamp affair, and i was told that i needed to have this and that with me when i came back the next week. we got our stuff straight with what Mass required (copy of 527 CMR-30 (IF I REMEMBER RIGHT)) needed to be provided with each unit ( we inserted it into the manual) and some additions to the manual stating that an installer must be liscenced by the state of Mass to perform installations or service. i read this mass reg and after doing so i recommended that we include several key points to this reg to our normal manual which went in every unit regardless of where it was shipped. which we did. we get calls for a statement that our units have been certified by mass often, i generally just fax up a copy of our cert. to the person asking. they run a tight ship up there , and as a manufacturer , even though sometimes it can be a pain, they are really looking out for us as well as their residents even though they dont look at it that way.

 

[webbie]

I often had manufacturers being pissed at me for selling their stoves are extremely reasonable prices.....especially when I sold them to people a distance from my store. VC, in the early days, got angry with me for that. Avalon also did.

Never mind our good customer service, 800 number and virtually ZERO complaints....and the fact that we payed our bills on time. The manufacturers try to keep everyone happy, and we all know the squeaking dealer gets the grease, so every once in a while I would get the calls. My typical response was "heck, you should be happy even if I dump the stoves over a cliff - as long as I pay you for them".

Somehow I ended up with a reputation for being a bit of a hard head.