Rototilling/New Garden

[wenger7446]

I would like to build a new garden in a location where there is existing lawn. Should I remove the existing grass/turf before I rototill the garden?

Thanks in advance.

 

[bmblank]

I would imagine you'll have a ton of weed issues if you don't. Removing portions of healthy turf isn't too hard. I've done it with a spade, but with a good lawn there are more tools to make it quicker.

 

[Dune]

The best thing you can do is cover it until it is totally dead. Old sheets of plywood, plastic, fabric, rug, anything you can think of.
Turf is difficult to rototill and requires multiple passes at slow rates. Once the turf dies it is easy to till, and no, you don't want to remove the turf.
Turf is also known as green manure.

http://www.organicgardening.com/learn-and-grow/cover-crop-basics

 

[semipro]

You may want to check out 'lasagna' gardening.
Here's one reference: http://organicgardening.about.com/od/startinganorganicgarden/a/lasagnagarden.htm

 

[Warm_in_NH]

I like the "lasagna" method, but you may not have time to do this and get it running before spring, as ideally, a thick layer (sunday paper thick) of paper and cardboard should initially be used.

A lot of people are totally anti roto-tilling as it tends to compact the soil at the bottom end of it's reach, ultimately (after a couple years) creating a hard packed layer that inhibits roots from getting deep, resulting in what is in essentially a container garden with poor drainage. I think you're fine as long as you don't do it every few weeks, as I've seen some people do. But as is any statement, it's always up for debate.

If you're new to gardening just remember that plants are little mining machines. They pull nutrients up from deep in the soil, and if allowed to die, deposit those nutrients on top where they'll feed new growth, if harvested, you're removing those nutrients front the soil. So ultimately try to compost and return as much as you can to your growing area. Also, the above link to cover crops is good as they'll replenish the soil and in a manner, turn it over for you as a roto-tiller would, pulling nutrients up from the bottom and leaving it on top. A fall crop of raddish left unharvested and allowed to decay will do a great job in loosening the soil, they can be planted with a cover crop as well.

Good luck and it's just nice to see a spring related gardening thread!

 

[1kzwoman]

I suggest tightly covering your garden spot after you rototiller and remove most grass roots , with a heavy sheet of plastic, the sun and resulting heat will A) sprout weed seed then B) Kill the weed sprouts C) Pre-warm your soil before you plant. If you do this every spring it really cuts down on weeds.

 

[wenger7446]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I knew I could rely on this forum for solid information. I think I am going rototill this year and try the lasagna method next year at a different location. It would be neat to try.

I have a lot of compost from this past year that I can mix into the garden.

 

[Highbeam]

Spray roundup to kill, then till, then allow new weeds to sprout, then roundup to kill, then till, and then plant. Remove only big rocks.

 

[Warm_in_NH]

Spray roundup to kill, then till, then allow new weeds to sprout, then roundup to kill, then till, and then plant. Remove only big rocks.

Are you a Monsanto representative?

 

[semipro]

We have used Roundup around our place but not in the vegetable garden.
For many years glyphosphate, the active ingredient in Roundup, has been considered basically innocuous as long as its not introduced to streams.
Recent studies indicate that glyphosphate may not be as safe as we were led to believe.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/05/14/glyphosate.aspx
We'll probably continue to use at our place it but perhaps more carefully than we have till now.

 

[Highbeam]

We have used Roundup around our place but not in the vegetable garden.
For many years glyphosphate, the active ingredient in Roundup, has been considered basically innocuous as long as its not introduced to streams.
Recent studies indicate that glyphosphate may not be as safe as we were led to believe.
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/05/14/glyphosate.aspx
We'll probably continue to use at our place it but perhaps more carefully than we have till now.

I read the link and as suspected it is from a crackpot environmentalist. Some people just take things too far. You know the type, birkenstocks, long matted hair, no deodorant, vegan, organic eating, and telling evryone else how bad they are.

 

[Dune]

I read the link and as suspected it is from a crackpot environmentalist. Some people just take things too far. You know the type, birkenstocks, long matted hair, no deodorant, vegan, organic eating, and telling evryone else how bad they are.

That's fine, but I am pretty sure you don't need roundup at all, nor should you use it in a vegtable garden of all places.

 

[Warm_in_NH]

I'm surprised it says you can plant veggies 3 days after applying it to a bed.

I'm no where near a hippie, , I just don't want it around my food.

If you don't have to use poison where your food grows I think most would opt not to.

 

[boo boo]

I read the link and as suspected it is from a crackpot environmentalist. Some people just take things too far. You know the type, birkenstocks, long matted hair, no deodorant, vegan, organic eating, and telling evryone else how bad they are.

Yes I remember that type

1978 Microsoft Corp

 

[_CY_]

Roundup and Glyphosate Toxicity Have Been Grossly Underestimated

July 30, 2013

The true toxicity of glyphosate—the active ingredient in Monsanto’s broad-spectrum herbicide Roundup—is becoming increasingly clear as study after study is published demonstrating its devastating effects. In June, groundbreaking research was published detailing a newfound mechanism of harm for Roundup.

This was immediately followed by tests showing that people in 18 countries across Europe have glyphosate in their bodies,1 while yet another study revealed that the chemical has estrogenic properties and drives breast cancer proliferation in the parts-per-trillion range.2

This finding might help explain why rats fed Monsanto’s maize developed massive breast tumors in the first-ever lifetime feeding study published last year. Other recently published studies demonstrate glyphosate’s toxicity to cell lines, aquatic life, food animals, and humans.

Glyphosate Toxicity Underestimated, Study Concludes
One such study, published in the journal Ecotoxicology,3 found that glyphosate is toxic to water fleas (Daphnia magna) at minuscule levels that are well within the levels expected to be found in the environment.

According to regulators, glyphosate is thought to be practically nontoxic to aquatic invertebrates. The water flea is a widely accepted model for environmental toxicity, so this study throws serious doubt on glyphosate’s classification as environmentally safe. According to the study:

“To test the acute effects of both glyphosate and a commercial formulation of Roundup (hereafter Roundup), we conducted a series of exposure experiments with different clones and age-classes of D. magna.... Roundup showed slightly lower acute toxicity than glyphosate IPA alone... However, in chronic toxicity tests spanning the whole life-cycle, Roundup was more toxic.

...Significant reduction of juvenile size was observed even in the lowest test concentrations of 0.05 mg a.i./l, for both glyphosate and Roundup. At 0.45 mg a.i./l, growth, fecundity and choice rate was affected, but only in animals exposed to Roundup.

At 1.35 and 4.05 mg a.i./l of both glyphosate and Roundup, significant negative effects were seen on most tested parameters, including mortality. D. magna was adversely affected by a near 100% choice rate of eggs and embryonic stages at 1.35 mg a.i./l of Roundup.

The results indicate that aquatic invertebrate ecology can be adversely affected by relevant ambient concentrations of this major herbicide. We conclude that glyphosate and Roundup toxicity to aquatic invertebrates have been underestimated and that current European Commission and US EPA toxicity classification of these chemicals need to be revised.”

Herbicide Formulations Far More Toxic Than Glyphosate Alone
An article published on Greenmedinfo.com4 last year reviewed several interesting studies relating to the profound toxicity of Monsanto’s herbicide Roundup:

“Back in Feb. of 2012, the journal Archives of Toxicology5 published a shocking study showing that Roundup is toxic to human DNA even when diluted to concentrations 450-fold lower than used in agricultural applications.

This effect could not have been anticipated from the known toxicological effects of glyphosate alone. The likely explanation is that the surfactant polyoxyethyleneamine within Roundup dramatically enhances the absorption of glyphosate into exposed human cells and tissue,” Sayer Ji writes.

“If this is true, it speaks to a fundamental problem associated with toxicological risk assessments of agrichemicals (and novel manmade chemicals in general), namely, these assessments do not take into account the reality of synergistic toxicologies, i.e. the amplification of harm associated with multiple chemical exposures occurring simultaneously.”

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/30/glyphosate-toxicity.aspx
​

 

[begreen]

I have used a couple methods. One has already been mentioned here, we covered one garden area with heavy black plastic for a year. The next year, weeds and grass were tilled easily into the soil. The other method we've used when we want to use that bed soon is to do a double-dig. You mark out the bed, let's say it's going to be 3ft by 30ft. Start at one end and remove the sod from the first 12" and set it aside. Dig down another 18" to create an 12" x 36" trench at the start of the bed. Now remove the next 18" of sod and flip it so that it is roots up and put it at the bottom of the first trench. Dig out the second trench putting the soil into the first trench, burying the sod. Repeat this moving down the bed one foot at a time. At the end of the bed take the sod and soil from the first trench and use it to fill the last by the same method. When the bed is done, amend the soil by tilling in compost, rock phosphate and greensand + a nitrogen source like composted manure, crab meal, guano, etc.

 

[Lumber-Jack]

Herbicide Formulations Far More Toxic Than Glyphosate Alone

​

Toxicity is relative.
I've quoted the one confirm-able truth in that information you posted, but when considering the toxicity of a substance you need to realize that many substances we willingly use or consume have a certain amount of relative "toxicity".
I was in a job where I found I had to routinely use a lot of weed killer, and have read a lot of information and reports on the use of "Roundup" and Glyphosate, and the one thing I can say for sure is it's toxicity has been grossly exaggerated, and/or misunderstood. The one thing that seems to keep coming up in the studies I've read is that the herbicide "formulation" Roundup is more toxic than pure Glyphosate alone. Well, there is a reason for this.
The herbicide "formulations" they created are generally intended to be sprayed on plant surfaces, and in field practice they found pure Glyphosate tended to drip or roll off many waxy or oily plant leaves and surfaces when sprayed on in it's pure form. So to get it to stick and absorb into the plant surfaces better they tried mixing it with other ingredients. they found that using ingredients with properties similar to soap or detergent tended to make the Glyphosate stick and absorb better through the waxy or oily surfaces of the plants. much the same way that soap helps plain water break through the oily surfaces of our skin. The thing is, soap is not totally harmless. What happens when kids get soap in their eyes? They start screaming and crying right? The reason for this is because soap is TOXIC !
They have tried for years to develop gentler, more mild forms of soap, but the fact is the most effective soaps are generally the ones that will burn your eyes if they come in contact with them.
So what does this have to do with Roundup? Well, it's simple. They often mix Glyphosate with surfactants, and surfactants have properties similar to soap or detergent, including the tendency to sting when they get in your eyes or causing mild irritation on your skin if left on too long, and these are often the first symptoms or signs of "toxicity" that people bring up when talking about the toxicity of Roundup. The good news in this is that the soap like surfactant ingredient in Glyphosate based herbicides is the far more toxic of the the two main ingredients, leaving Glyphosate at the more inert substance, and since the surfactant ingredient is only about as toxic as something most people rub on their skin everyday (soap), then we can feel pretty assured it is somewhat safe, relatively speaking.

And no, I'm not a fan or advocate of the Monsanto corporation. In fact I'm glad they lost the exclusive patent to Glyphosate years ago, so that I can purchase it at a much cheaper price without giving any of my money to that *&%$# company.

 

[JoeyD]

Around here when the zucchini crop is finished, or should I say the plants slow down production because I always see plenty left, the farmers use round up on the entire field. I guess there are limits to what they waste their time picking. With in a week or two they are prepping for a fall crop in the same field.

I saw a work mate get sprayed straight in the face by a turnpike employee and the turnpike guy brushed it off like nothing happened and didn't understand why my buddy was so pissed off. After that I looked into it and found out it really is not that toxic to humans, I suppose.

 

[Warm_in_NH]

Yep. Toxins aren't bad for you at all. Trust the government, they have your best interests in mind, really.
DDT, lead, cigarettes, none of these and many more weren't bad for you either....
Again, given an evenly balanced choice, I'll choose to skip the side of chemicals.

 

[flyingcow]

DDT, too bad it got such a bad name. Overuse is why.

A lot of the bad rap on Roundup is base on junk science, and online bloggers that all of a sudden become"peers" of the study. Same with GMO BS. These groups keep attacking roundup ready corn on two fronts.

A simple question about opening up a garden...........headed for the can?

 

[BrotherBart]

DDT, too bad it got such a bad name.

In the fifties when the DDT fogger drove down the street us kids used to run behind it in the fog. Probably explains a few things...

 

[BrotherBart]

Yes I remember that type
View attachment 131240

1978 Microsoft Corp

The year I laughed off a job offer from them.

 

[wenger7446]

Thanks guys. I am going to shy away from the chemicals.

 

[JoeyD]

I don't use chemicals in my garden but I do use round up around my wood stacks. Along with some insect control if I notice to much ant activity. I see no sense in bringing those buggers in my house during the winter.

FWIW I think you are over thinking this garden. Just go out and rototill now and one more time when you are ready to plant. Or more if you have time before you plant. That turf will die and rot for the most part. The more you work it the better off you will be. It might be a little more work the first year but it is certainly doable.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

No plastic, no double digging. You can put down cardboard, then layers of compostables for a lasagna garden and plant this year. Use small soil pockets if worried. The compostables break down in place.

Sorry, rototilling is only for those that hate their worms or have a tool they are dying to use.