Running the new Mansfield 8013

[mdocod]

Ok so it wasn't an exact quote. It doesn't change the meaning of the code. Can you tell us what exemption you are referring to?

You already posted it and have demonstrated that you can't interpret it. There's no where to go from here in this debate. You either keep interpreting it wrong or don't, that's up to you to figure out, not me.

 

[bholler]

303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

1. Sleeping rooms
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exception: This section shall not apply to the following appliances:

1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air directly from the outdoors.
2. Solid fuel-fired appliances, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.

3. Appliances installed in a dedicated enclosure in which all combustion air is taken directly from the outdoors, in accordance with Section 703. Access to such enclosure shall be through a solid door, weather-stripped in accordance with the exterior door air leakage requirements of the International Energy Conservation Code and equipped with an approved self-closing device.

International Fuel Gas Code (IFGC)
SECTION 303
APPLIANCE LOCATION
303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

1. Sleeping rooms.
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exceptions:

1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air directly from the outdoors.
2. Listed vented gas fired room heaters, listed vented decorative gas appliances and listed decorative gas-fired appliances for installation in vented solid fuel burning fireplaces, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.

 

[bholler]

You already posted it and have demonstrated that you can't interpret it. There's no where to go from here in this debate. You either keep interpreting it wrong or don't, that's up to you to figure out, not me.

I assume you mean that which I posted previously. Can you point out any exceptions other than the two already mentioned for us?

 

[mdocod]

International Fuel Gas Code (IFGC)
SECTION 303
APPLIANCE LOCATION
303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

1. Sleeping rooms.
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exceptions:

1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air directly from the outdoors.
2. Listed vented gas fired room heaters, listed vented decorative gas appliances and listed decorative gas-fired appliances for installation in vented solid fuel burning fireplaces, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.

Solid fuel appliances are not in the scope of IFGC. Not sure why you included this, but it has nothing to do with wood stoves. Read chapter 1, scope and administration for further details.

 

[mdocod]

303.3 Prohibited locations. Fuel-fired appliances shall not be located in, or obtain combustion air from, any of the following rooms or spaces:

1. Sleeping rooms
2. Bathrooms.
3. Toilet rooms.
4. Storage closets.
5. Surgical rooms.
Exception: This section shall not apply to the following appliances:

1. Direct-vent appliances that obtain all combustion air directly from the outdoors.
2. Solid fuel-fired appliances, provided that the room is not a confined space and the building is not of unusually tight construction.
3. Appliances installed in a dedicated enclosure in which all combustion air is taken directly from the outdoors, in accordance with Section 703. Access to such enclosure shall be through a solid door, weather-stripped in accordance with the exterior door air leakage requirements of the International Energy Conservation Code and equipped with an approved self-closing device.

A bedroom is not a confined space.

"Unusually tight construction" is rare. Most homes if put under a vacuum will allow air in through doorway cracks, bathroom fans vents, oven hood vents, outlets and switches in exterior walls. Even if you had a home that did not leak from any of those places, modern code in most areas requires the installation of a passive-fresh-air inlet at minimum that opens when the home is under a vacuum or when HVAC systems are running, to account for things like oven hoods, bathroom fans, etc, and to ensure that the home gets an appropriate amount of fresh air for safe living. Furthermore, even if a clipboard warrior were concerned about a home being "too tight" for the wood stove, we could simply install a combination of outside air kit to the stove and a make-up-air valve to the room to "break" the "unusually tight construction" problem to satisfy the code.

 

[bholler]

A bedroom is not a confined space.

Yes the vast majority are. Look up the definition

"Unusually tight construction" is rare

You do realize this code was written in the 80s unusually tight construction from that time is just the norm at this point.

Even if you had a home that did not leak from any of those places, modern code in most areas requires the installation of a passive-fresh-air inlet at minimum that opens when the home is under a vacuum or when HVAC systems are running, to account for things like oven hoods, bathroom fans, etc, and to ensure that the home gets an appropriate amount of fresh air for safe living.

Where does that code mention an hrv? Where is that exception?

Furthermore, even if a clipboard warrior were concerned about a home being "too tight" for the wood stove, we could simply install a combination of outside air kit to the stove and a make-up-air valve to the room to "break" the "unusually tight construction" problem to satisfy the code.

Again where does the code allow for this on a normal woodstove?

 

[BKVP]

If the room has a door that can close access, inspectors have, across the nation, deemed it as "confined space". We deal with thousands of inspectors annually as they inspect permitted installations. The questions are often first timers, meaning having never run into a particular application. The qualified, definitive observation shared by every single inspector we have dealt with is, a bedroom, is a confined space.

If there is an exemption, we too would be appreciative of learning about it so we can share that. This site is very "educational" and sharing is encouraged.

Look forward to more learning.

 

[mdocod]

Yes the vast majority are. Look up the definition

I've read dozens of definitions of confined space. The sort of bedroom with enough square footage to have a wood stove, clearances, and room for regular bedrooms furnishings does not qualify. You'd have to put a sill across the doorway, glue the windows shut, and seal off the ventilation system for it to qualify as a confined space.

A ventilated room with windows and a doorway that anyone can easily walk in and out of is not a confined space.

You do realize this code was written in the 80s unusually tight construction from that time is just the norm at this point.

Yea, and they realized they were making them too tight and so now there are codes that enforce the installation of fresh air inlets, which can be fitted with HRV/ERV's optionally in most areas, required in some areas/situations. "Too tight" is against code now. Furthermore, if you're arguing that homes are "too tight of construction" for a wood stove in a bedroom, then you're simultaneously arguing that they are too tight for a wood stove to be installed anywhere, as almost all modern homes have regular ventilation ducts in every bedroom. In this house, every bedroom has multiple supply ducts and a return duct. When the door is shut there's still huge holes leading to huge ducts that connect the room to the airspace of the rest of the house.

You can't have this both ways. If a wood stove can't go in a bedroom for the reasons you're citing here, then you better remove the wood stove from your house or drop this pointless argument.

Where does that code mention an hrv? Where is that exception?

Where does that code say that an air supply solution can't be used to satisfy the requirement of "not unusually tight?" Why does it have to call it out? It doesn't say "unusually tight constructions must be kept that way" either.

Again where does the code allow for this on a normal woodstove?

It honestly doesn't need to, because if you're installing a wood stove in a house in a "to code" way, and then configuring the home to ventilate in a "to code" way, then the stove will have access to adequate air if it is burning air from within the home, and even more-so if installed with an outside air kit.

 

[bholler]

I've read dozens of definitions of confined space. The sort of bedroom with enough square footage to have a wood stove, clearances, and room for regular bedrooms furnishings does not qualify. You'd have to put a sill across the doorway, glue the windows shut, and seal off the ventilation system for it to qualify as a confined space.

A ventilated room with windows and a doorway that anyone can easily walk in and out of is not a confined space.



Yea, and they realized they were making them too tight and so now there are codes that enforce the installation of fresh air inlets, which can be fitted with HRV/ERV's optionally in most areas, required in some areas/situations. "Too tight" is against code now. Furthermore, if you're arguing that homes are "too tight of construction" for a wood stove in a bedroom, then you're simultaneously arguing that they are too tight for a wood stove to be installed anywhere, as almost all modern homes have regular ventilation ducts in every bedroom. In this house, every bedroom has multiple supply ducts and a return duct. When the door is shut there's still huge holes leading to huge ducts that connect the room to the airspace of the rest of the house.

You can't have this both ways. If a wood stove can't go in a bedroom for the reasons you're citing here, then you better remove the wood stove from your house or drop this pointless argument.




Where does that code say that an air supply solution can't be used to satisfy the requirement of "not unusually tight?" Why does it have to call it out? It doesn't say "unusually tight constructions must be kept that way" either.


It honestly doesn't need to, because if you're installing a wood stove in a house in a "to code" way, and then configuring the home to ventilate in a "to code" way, then the stove will have access to adequate air if it is burning air from within the home, and even more-so if installed with an outside air kit.

The fact is the woodstove industry doesn't agree with your interpretation. The code officials doing education don't agree with your interpretation. No inspector I have dealt with does. The VP of blaze king confirmed that most inspectors don't agree with you. Now if something happens who's interpretation do you think will matter to your insurance company????

 

[mdocod]

The fact is the woodstove industry doesn't agree with your interpretation. The code officials doing education don't agree with your interpretation. No inspector I have dealt with does. The VP of blaze king confirmed that most inspectors don't agree with you. Now if something happens who's interpretation do you think will matter to your insurance company????

Oh yea... I forgot about the insurance company... that's right... they also had no issues with it.

 

[bholler]

Ok I will let anyone reading this decide who to trust. The woodstove industry and code administration officials or some guys architect.