Saw chain - little help?

[Creek-Chub]

So this has been my first year doing some fairly serious bucking and cutting with a saw. I've got a Stihl MS290 and a few chains from the big box stores/Rural King, etc. All anti-kickback off the shelf stuff. I bucked 10 cords of slab wood, and 4 or 5 cords of misc. Oak, Cherry, and a bit of softwood this year. I'm finding that it seems to take longer than I feel it should to buck logs. I've taken my chains in to have them sharpened, and finally started doing it myself. No real difference in quality from what I can see, and filing them myself is a heck of a lot quicker, and obviously cheaper.

Now I'm reading about more aggressive chains, which, while not sporting the "anti-kickback" label, are supposed to eat through logs like nobody's business. Chisel chain, semi-chisel, and about 100 different varieties of each. Chains for perfectly clean wood, chains for dirty cutting, .325, 3/8, etc. Anyone in the know care to educate me further on chainsaw chains? I've got an 18" bar on the Stihl, but wouldn't have a problem with bumping that up a bit if necessary. I'm about to process 15 or so cords of Oak, am reasonably proficient with a chainsaw, and want to get through the bucking part as quickly as possible. Recommendations?

Thanks in advance...

 

[smokinj]

sthil full chisel chain

 

[mainstation]

Run two machine sharpened chains, be safe and enjoy the fresh air. If the logs are off the ground=all the better. If you are bucking more than 8 face cord of Oak a day, you're working to hard. IMO. More bar=less rpm's.
My local saw shop is good for doing chains, cash helps.

 

[LLigetfa]

I use Stihl RS full chisel.

 

[Creek-Chub]

Any drawbacks to the full chisel, guys? Wood has to be totally clean, dull easily, hard to file by hand, anything like that? I think I'll pick one up anyway, but I'm curious. Thanks...

 

[jdemaris]

Any drawbacks to the full chisel, guys? Wood has to be totally clean, dull easily, hard to file by hand, anything like that? I think I'll pick one up anyway, but I'm curious. Thanks...

Yes, there are a few drawbacks. Full chisel is hard to sharpen by hand and by machine since there are several angles that differ from round-chipper type chain. In fact, many factory made elecric sharpeners to do not even have the adjustments needed to sharpen most full chisel chains. Also, full chisel does not handle abrasion from dirt or debris as well as round chipper chain. Basically, it is either pefectly sharp and cuts great, or cuts lousy with little inbetween. That because it relies on the small sharp point of the chisel to start cutting. Great for frozen and clean wood, but otherwise, I've never seen the overall advantage.

A good semi-chisel, round chipper will cut almost as fast and is less hassle. If I hit a pebble or a piece of barbed wire with chisel chain - even just a speck - it's dead and won' t cut. Round chipper chain can keep on going - not as well but will keep cutting and won't suffer so much from hitting debris. I've got a 30" full chisel chain on one saw that use mainly for dropping big trees. I tend to use round chipper when cutting wood on the grounds. I cut mostly red oak, hard maple, ash, and hickory and there's not a huge difference in cutting speed between the two types of chains.

 

[LLigetfa]

I've been using full chisel for decades and haven't had any problem sharpening them. It is true that they don't handle dirt well. If you don't notice a huge difference then maybe you do have a sharpening problem.

 

[smokinj]

I've been using full chisel for decades and haven't had any problem sharpening them. It is true that they don't handle dirt well. If you don't notice a huge difference then maybe you do have a sharpening problem.

same here its what you get use to in dirty wood i have one in-ject-chain it will go through anything

 

[jdemaris]

I've been using full chisel for decades and haven't had any problem sharpening them. It is true that they don't handle dirt well. If you don't notice a huge difference then maybe you do have a sharpening problem.

I don't have a problem with sharpening. Been using many types of chains back to the 1960s |(when much was 7/16", 1/2" or .404"). Also did a lot of chain sharpening at a professional level for logger and treemen-clients. Also have used brand new chains of many profiles and makes - and I'll assume they were properly sharpened from the factory. Just because you have no issue with hand-sharpening full chisel chain, doesn't mean everybody can do it. That is assuming you are indeed talking about full-chisel, and not semi-chisel. You DO know the difference, correct? I ask because because a good semi-chisel can cut almost as well as full chisel without the added hassles unless the wood is frozen. And off course, that's going to vary a bit with specific type and make of the chain.

In regard to no problem sharpening it with a machine? Yes it is a problem since many machines lack the adjustments. A skilled person sharpening by hand can do any angle with a file, but not so with a machine unless it's setup for it. E.g., most versions of Stihl and some Orgegon full-chisel chain call for the file to be 70 or 80 degrees to the chain, instead of 90 degrees. If the machine does not have a chain vise that swivels to those alternate angles, it cannot sharpen the chain to factory specs. There is also one other compound angle needed for many brands of full chisel that many factory built sharpeners do not have.

I've got no doubt that you get along with sharpening your chains by hand. I didn't say it can't be done, I said it's more difficult - and that's because it is.

Hey, you gave your opinion and I gave mine. Guess the guy that asked can find out for himeself. He DID ask about any drawbacks, and there are certainly a few - as there is with just about anything. If I was cutting all clean wood with no dirt or possible debris - I'd stick with full chisel. But, that type of cutting in my environment just about never happens. I cut a lot of wood, and with cutting it on the ground - full chisel wastes more of my time than it saves.

 

[LLigetfa]

Gee, I didn't realize sharpening full chisel was so complicated and that I was so extremely talented. I was not yet a teen back in the early 60's using and sharpening my father's Pioneer. My father never could sharpen a chain and was murder on them, constantly running them into the ground.

I've never had the luxury of a machine for sharpening and maybe it's true that technology makes life simple for complex folk but complex for simple folk. I'll have to take your word for it. As for not noticing a difference, since I've been using only full chisel for decades, maybe round cutters have made recent advances that I'm missing out on. None the less, I'm happy to cut my clean Winter harvested wood with my Stihl RS full chisel. I use the same chain in the summer to fell and buck trees and have no problem keeping my chain out of the dirt.

 

[jdemaris]

Gee, I didn't realize sharpening full chisel was so complicated and that I was so extremely talented.

Maybe you are skilled. Many can't sharpen any chain and make it cut straight in big wood. Small wood is easy since even if the angles are a bit off, the wood is cut before the chain and bar binds up. But with big wood, unless the angles match perfectly, the cut will veer off and make the bar get stuck midway through the log.

If you are used to using a file, the multiple and differing angles don't mean much since you can just follow what is already there. We had many professional woodcutters that would hand sharpen chains most of the time - but - bring them in for a machine correction after many hand sharpenings. That because the hand-sharpened angles tend to wanter over time.

I was working for a Deere tractor / Homelite/Sachs/Hoe/Stihl saw dealer in the early 70s. Besides fixing and selling saws, we also rented them out to contractors. An 090 Contra, S10, and an 08S. It was around that time (maybe 1971) that Stihl started pusing it's "Super" chain. So, we had standard, micro (semi-chisel) and Super (full chisel). Odd thing we quickly found out was that our Stihl chain sharpener could not sharpen Stihl Super chain. Seems the machine was designed before the chain was. So, our shop had to buy a new machine. First a Bell-Saw, and finally a Peerless.
We quickly gave up using the full chisel on rental saws, it suffered too much when debris was hit.
Same problem still exists in my area of New York. This has been a dairly farming area since the 1700s, and even trees cut in the deepest woods are in areas that were once cleared and fenced fields. Subsequently, you never know when you're going to hit an old piece of fence wire, maple tap, etc. I still have two new 50 foot rolls of Stihl full chisel, so I still use it. The rolls will probably last me a lifetime and I only use it on clean wood and NEVER cutting stumps. Around here, I've yet to flush-cut a stump and NOT hit something hard.

In regard to cutting speed - I still find very little difference between full and semi chisel when it comes to cutting speed. Both are lightning fast for me when sharp - even in hickory and hard maple.

 

[LLigetfa]

In regard to cutting speed - I still find very little difference between full and semi chisel when it comes to cutting speed. Both are lightning fast for me when sharp - even in hickory and hard maple.

Not having ever tried semi chisel, I cannot comment but you were at first comparing full chisel to classic round and that was what I challenged.

I tend to use round chipper when cutting wood on the grounds. I cut mostly red oak, hard maple, ash, and hickory and there’s not a huge difference in cutting speed between the two types of chains.

A round cutter re-cuts the same end grain fibre several times compared to a full chisel and the cutting speed is noticeable. A chain that doesn't have to continually re-cut the same fibre will stay sharper longer too, provided you can keep it out of the dirt.

As for sharpening difficulty, I was thinking about hand sharpening. When I compare hand sharpening "difficulty" of round versus chisel, I really don't see any difference at all. To me the technique is pretty much the same... hold the file at the correct angle and push, lift off, pull, repeat. I tried for years to teach my father how to sharpen a chain and to this day, I still don't understand what's so difficult. Post a mental picture of what it should look like, angle the file and provide the needed force to match the picture in your mind's eye. Dunno... maybe it takes a photographic memory that's not so common.

I think every chain manufacturer should put a large picture of the cutter on the box showing what it should look like. Then people could pin up the picture above their workbench and stare at it until it's burned into permanent memory. Maybe take a camera with a good macro lens and take a few pics of a brand new chain and blow it up to poster size.

 

[jdemaris]

I cannot comment but you were at first comparing full chisel to classic round and that was what I challenged.

I never actually said just "classic round." Semi-chisel can also have partially roundish cutters. When talking about chain, to truly compare anything, the actual make, vintage, specific grade, etc. would need to be in the conversation. Different companies have different mindsets, terminologies, etc. E.g., Stihl rarely used the term "chisel" in their descriptoins and branding. But, to my knowledge, Stihl never made a cheaper version, soft chain. On the other hand, when they first introduced their "Super" full-chisel, it not only had the square cutters, it also had a harder alloy steel and came in grades up to the level of carbide. So, just the steel itself made it more durable in some ways, and much harder to hand sharpen. Also, since the Super was considered a professional grade chain - it also came with lower, more agressive rakers. Not all chisel type chains have the same angles, profiles, raker depths, and alloys. Subsequently, we are often comparing "apples to oranges" unless being specific.

To be specific with my experience, all my full chisel chain (in 3/8" and .404") is Stihl Super late 70s early 80s vintage. All my semi-chisel is either Stihl 3/8" in .063" gauge or Oregon in .050" gauge (not sure which version). I know that Oregon makes many grades of chain and regardless of profile, some is very soft and some is very hard. I have an Oregon chain sharpener that comes with a spec book with all the different angles for the many types of Oregon chains. It can make your head spin. Then, of course, is the rest which I have not kept up with. I still have a few partial rolls of new Lambert, Homelite, Lazer, Windsor, Carlton, etc. - and don't really know who actually made them. I can say that the Lazer and Carlton is pretty soft stuff.

I can make a new chain from either Stihl Micro (semi-chisel) or from Stihl Super (full chisel) and there's not much difference in cutting speed except in green frozen hardwood. For that, the full chisel is quite a bit faster. As to other brands - I'm not using them, and therefore can't comment.

 

[LLigetfa]

Ok, not classic round, only roundish... LOL I'll let you win on that technicality.

Anyway... back to the OP's requirement.

I’m about to process 15 or so cords of Oak, am reasonably proficient with a chainsaw, and want to get through the bucking part as quickly as possible. Recommendations?

Assuming the Oak is green, frozen, and hopefully clean, we seem to both agree that the Stihl RS full chisel would be a good choice.

'nuf said.

 

[aandabooks]

Are you running 3/8 or .325 pitch? The MS290 can be set up with either.

 

[Creek-Chub]

One correction. It's an MS280, NOT the MS290. I could have swore it was the 290. To top it off, I went out and bought a 3/8 Full chisel chain to try out, and realized the saw takes .325. Is there are any to change the sprocket out to run the 3/8 pitch, and if so would there be any benefit to doing so?

 

[LLigetfa]

I don't like 3/8 on anything under 55cc's.

Ja, it takes pretty well all of my 65cc's to pull the Stihl 3/8 RS full chisel. Mind you, my saw is going on 30 years old so all 4 horses are wanting to be put out to pasture.

 

[Creek-Chub]

Boy, I hear that about the "safety chain". I spent a few hours today on the saw cutting up some log length, and then happened to see a youtube video from arboristsite showing a guy bucking log length. Man... night and day between the time it takes me to buck a log and the time it took him. I'll get this figured out yet...

 

[aandabooks]

If you stay with Stihl chain, just get the .325 RSC. If you are trying to save some money 20lp or Woodland Pro 20rc from Baileys. Check ASC Auto Parts on ebay. I've found they have good prices also. Don't forget to see what Amick's has offered for Oregon also. Bought there before with good results. If you want to invest in a new bar and run Narrow Kerf to try and maximize the HP, you can try 95vp Oregon or 20nk Bailey's. You will need a Narrow Kerf bar to run either of those two chains.