Should I start with a small fire?

[enchant]

I installed a Jotul F400 Castine last year, and I feel like I still learning how to use it. Last year's major problem was getting it started without smoke filling the room. While I've got that licked now, this year's issue is soot on the window early on. There's another "soot" thread, but it's about a cat stove, so this is different.

I put down newspaper, kindling, then a couple splits east-west. Not enough depth for N-S in the Castine. After the E-W layer, I usually then put one more split on top at an angle. Then I light it. Almost every day, a large section of the glass gets heavily covered with soot. At this point, I can open the door and wipe most of it away with a paper towel, but I'm probably going to let a ton of smoke in, so I usually just leave it alone, and over the next hour or so, the fire starts burning well and the soot ultimately burns off. Yesterday, I made the fire as I normally do, but after laying down the E-W splits, the rest of the wood I had handy was too large to fit on the top, so I just lit it as is. No soot.

This morning, I had lots of square-ish splits, so I piled two layers of E-W on top of each other, filling the box. This time when I lit it, I had one of the worst soot experiences ever. It took a while to get it clear.

Should I always be lighting small fires - just one layer of splits, let it burn down and then fill the box more?

In case anyone is curious why I care if there's soot if it burns off anyways... When we get up in the morning, I make a fire, my wife makes coffee, then we drink our coffee while watching the fire. It's a pleasant way to start the day and a big reason why we bought the Castine with the large glass door.

 

[Riddlefiddle]

Sounds like your doing a bottom to top fire start up. Have you tried the top down method? I normally put two or or three small splits on bottom east west. Then I place four eight inch small splits north South. Some kindling on top of that and then newspaper. Starts right up with no soot on glass problems.

 

[Riddlefiddle]

Some of your wood might have been wet?

 

[Destructor]

We have an F-100 which is smaller. I start the fire with small pieces of pine kindling over some crumpled newspaper. I’ll often put a small or medium hardwood split towards the back first to lean the kindling against. Immediately after its lit I position the door to be cracked open an inch or so. As the fire gets going I’ll throw on a few more pieces of kindling then sometimes kindling sized pieces of hardwood then gradually larger pieces of split hardwood. Let the initial kindling get going well before placing more wood on, sometimes just one more piece at a time. In the meantime that larger split placed towards the back begins to burn, I just have to be certain that the secondary burn holes have remained exposed. I tend to leave the door cracked open until the first pieces of smallish hardwood splits are going and the kindling is going to coals. It may puff a little upon initial startup but usually just a whiff of smoke. Try opening the stove door and leaving it open for a while before building a fire, let the warm room air develop a draft up the chimney. Basically I do start off small but not a tiny fire.


I start fires in my masonry fireplace the same way but I’ll often put a very big piece of hardwood in first and build the fire on top of it and I don’t use any doors. I open the damper 10 minutes or so before lighting.

 

[enchant]

@Riddlefiddle - I suspected wet wood, but it's all been dry so far, and once it got going, it burned fine.

As much as I love the concept of the top-down fire, I've had no luck with it. I followed a video putting down smallish splits, kindling and newspaper on top. The newspaper burned, a couple pieces of kindling got a little scorched and nothing more. Perhaps I'll try again, but my attempt wasn't even close to being a success.

@Destructor - What you're describing sounds like what I'm thinking I should do. I have a bottom door for the ash pan, and I leave that cracked an inch until I'm sure the kindling has caught. Then I close it but don't crank down the handle so there's still a little bit of air seeping in. Once I'm convinced I have a decent fire, I torque it shut completely.

Last year when I was getting used to the new stove, I'd light the fire and it would often not draft up the flue, but seep out everywhere, making a smoky mess. My solution was to build the fire normally, but on one side, I put a loosely crumpled page of newspaper running from the bottom to the top of the box, and light this along with the paper under the kindling. This flames up quickly and gets a good fire up at the top of the box getting the draft going quickly. No problems since I started doing that.

 

[Nick Mystic]

You should not use your ash pan door to create a draft when starting a fire. Yes, it works great letting air rush through the firebox to make your kindling burning fast. However, eventually, something will distract you and you will forget to shut the door after a minute or two. When this happens you will create a blast furnace effect in the stove and do serious damage to the grate and possibly the floor of the stove. All this will lead to a very expensive rebuild of the stove. Cracking the side door is the way to go so long as you are the type of person who stays by the stove until you shut the door. If you leave the side door open once the fire gets burning vigorously you'll likely cause the stove to over fire leading to damage or worse yet, a house fire. I'm wondering why you are having so much trouble getting a good draft going in your set up? Have you explored this variable?

 

[enchant]

I'm wondering why you are having so much trouble getting a good draft going in your set up? Have you explored this variable?

Yes I have. I've explored it extensively.

Thanks for the advice concerning safety, but I am very well aware of the potential risks if I were to leave the stove if the ash door was open. But I don't do that, ever, ever, ever. I leave it cracked open for maybe 15-20 seconds. I then leave the handle loose for another minute, possibly two. During this time, I'm sitting cross-legged in front of the stove. I'm not going to get up until the fire is healthy and the door is fully shut.

Edit: Re: leaving the front door cracked open... If I do this early on, smoke is going to seep out. It's just a fact of life with this stove and it's something I've learned to live with.

 

[Doc C]

Take a whole firewood round split in half, put it on bottom with flat side facing up, place super cedar or similiar product on top of that, place small splits on top of super cedar, light super cedar, close door, drink coffee.

No smoke this way since door is closed. No kindling or paper needed.

 

[enchant]

I've honestly never tried the super cedar. I'll see if I can find some. All of my firewood is split, but what about two squarish splits adjacent? Would that accomplish the same base requirement?

 

[Doc C]

I've honestly never tried the super cedar. I'll see if I can find some. All of my firewood is split, but what about two squarish splits adjacent? Would that accomplish the same base requirement?

The main thing I use it for is a flat spot to lay my super cedar and enough wood to give me a few hours of burn time once the fire is going. I should post a picture but just ONE half of a round. You want a flat spot to place the fire starter and then your smaller pieces above that. Kind of like the top down method..but modified to like a center out method!

While most prefer super cedar here I would guess that your local TSC or farm store or chimney store will have the fire starter rounds or squares that you could at least try that method with before ordering super cedars.

Also someone else may be able to say for sure but I thought super cedar used to send a few samples to new members here?

Best thing I ever did was switch to that method. I no longer have to split kindling.

 

[Doc C]

It's not pretty but this solved all my smoke issues.

 

[yooper08]

+1 for top down start. The way you're trying to start it sounds like the wood on top is smothering the fire, which is a con to the "traditional" method.

Try the starting procedures here.

 

[webby3650]

Using the ashpan to get the fire going will often cause dirty glass pretty quickly. By allowing the air to come in from below the fuel, the air wash is interrupted. What’s your setup like? You should be able to open the front door without smoking pouring out. Especially just cracking it.

 

[begreen]

The Castine has a shallow firebox and a large door. This can lead to smoke spilling when opening the door if the draft is marginal. I've seen this most notably with a rear-vent connection with this stove.

+1, don't use the ashpan door for fire starting. It will put a very hot, forge-like temperature at the stove base. This can cause cracking due to the extreme difference in temps on the base. Top down starting will help warm up the flue, allowing the main door to be open a crack for startups.

Another method that I used successfully with the F400 was to take advantage of the boost air. This is the Tunnel of Love™ method: The idea is to get air under the wood for a faster start. Take a couple shorter (~12") 1-2" thick sticks and lay them down as sleepers, about 3-4" apart, N/S in the center of the stove. Place1/4 SuperCedar or other starter between the two sleepers or 3-4 newspaper balls. Criss cross a fw pieces of small kindling across the top of the sleepers. Then place 2-3, four inch splits E/W on the sleepers with a 1" air gap between them. The gap is important. You want air to be able to travel from the base of the fire, to the top. Light the SuperCedar or newspaper and allow it to start burning well. Once burning well close the door partially leaving a 1/2" open gap. Latch the door once the splits are burning robustly.

If the firewood is not fully seasoned, try using a couple 2/3 construction cut-offs or 2x4, 2x6 split in half for the first layer of wood on the sleepers. Place splits diagonally on top of this so that the gaps are not blocked. The idea is to get a hot fire under the marginal wood to drive out moisture as quickly as possible.

 

[Woody Stover]

I'm pretty sure that the Castine is one of the Jotuls that is a bit picky about draft. What is you present chimney setup, from stove to the top, including total height?

Take a whole firewood round split in half, put it on bottom with flat side facing up, place super cedar or similiar product on top of that, place small splits on top of super cedar, light super cedar, close door, drink coffee.

I've honestly never tried the super cedar. I'll see if I can find some. All of my firewood is split, but what about two squarish splits adjacent? Would that accomplish the same base requirement?

The main thing I use it for is a flat spot to lay my super cedar and enough wood to give me a few hours of burn time once the fire is going. I should post a picture but just ONE half of a round. You want a flat spot to place the fire starter and then your smaller pieces above that. Kind of like the top down method..but modified to like a center out method!

While most prefer super cedar here I would guess that your local TSC or farm store or chimney store will have the fire starter rounds or squares that you could at least try that method with before ordering super cedars

@Doc C is describing what I will do sometimes..some version of the top-down start. If you do that in the center of the box, the smoke will originate higher in the box and closer to the flue opening, possibly avoiding smoke roll-out.
The SuperCedars crumble a bit when I cut them up. I save the chunks along with the dust in a freezer bag. When I have some dust to get rid of I will dump a couple of scoops on the flat split that Doc C mentioned. With the Meeco Firelighting Squares, I split them in half and tent them to get a vigorous burn.

 

[firefighterjake]

Suggestions . . .

Top down fire (establish the draft faster and get the air flowing the right way quicker . . . keep at it . . . it took me a few times to get a handle on what works and doesn't work)

Super Cedars (less smoke at start up and with the top down fire helps establish the draft quicker)

Leave the door ajar . . . but never the ash pan door (yeah, many of us have done that . . . but it's a bad, bad thing to do)

I've also found that when I have issues early on and late in the burning season (i.e. early Fall and late Spring when the draft can be a bit more temperamental that it helps to have a fan in the adjoining room's floor pointing towards the stove AND even more importantly have a nearby window slightly cracked.)

 

[Destructor]

Construction scraps and cedar split down is what I use for kindling plus any peals I get from the splitting of hardwood.

 

[Riddlefiddle]

Enchant what are your burn times with the f 400?

 

[enchant]

Lots of questions and suggestions. I'll try to cover them.

The stove has a dedicated chimney that was rebuilt summer '16. The top initially was 11' above the top of the stove. I had a 4' pipe extension added, so now it's 15' above. As far as I can tell, it had no effect on the smoke/draft issue.

But I really don't want to talk about any serious structural changes at this point. I don't want to turn the extension on the chimney into a towering smokestack requiring support cables. I'm mostly interested in learning how I can improve my initial fire building process, and I appreciate all of the suggestions I've received so far.

Enchant what are your burn times with the f 400?

I'm sorry, I don't know what you mean by "burn times". Are you asking how long I keep the stove burning during the course of the day?

Tunnel of Love™ method

I've done something similar to this. I'll take a couple of thin splits and halve them on my table saw, put them N-S, build a small paper/kindling pile and stack the firewood on them.

Re: Cracking a window... We recently discovered a terrible leak in one of the sliders in that room. I felt a draft down at the bottom, and it turns out that the floor area had warped sufficiently that one edge of the door had lifted so far that I could actually see outside through the opening.

 

[enchant]

Is there a youtube video that the hearth.com regulars agree is the "correct" way to make a top-down fire? I followed one last year and it failed. I don't want to do it and then have folks tell me that I followed the wrong method.

 

[xman23]

Top down bottom up, for me it's all the same for me. The goal is to get a cold stove ripping ASAP. Key requirements, good wood, kindling, fire starter, lighter (propane torch), good draft. So then I'm ready. Even with everything I mentioned so far being correct, you need to position all the wood just right to get a quick start. In front of the dog house, it's important to elevate the wood off the floor. I like the air flow through the dog house going up through the center of the stove / wood stack. Loosely criss cross the wood leaving a lot of paths for the flames work up through. I don't get this right every time, but when I do the stove gets going quickly with out and white film on the glass.

 

[webby3650]

I don’t know that there is a “wrong” method. If it fails it’s likely because the larger splits aren’t seasoned well enough and won’t catch fire.

 

[Riddlefiddle]

By burn time I mean how long does the stove burn before you have to reload it? I know its off topic but I was just curious. I installed a jotul f 400 this year.

 

[enchant]

Ah, ok. Well... It depends.

Assuming I've got a nice bed of coals, if I don't want to bother with it a lot and don't expect to be around the stove much, I'll load it up as best I can and I will usually get about 3 hours before I'm down to low coals again. This is with the damper set down to maybe 10% open.

Often, I'm doing stuff around the house and walking in the neighborhood of the stove, seeing it a lot. In these cases, I will leave the damper around 30% open and just toss a good sized split in there a let it burn down on its own. I probably do this once an hour. This is probably not the most efficient way, but I have to put some value to the enjoyment I get out of tending the fire, even something as simplistic as this.

In either case, my stove top temps are usually in the vicinity of 400F.

 

[Doc C]

By burn time I mean how long does the stove burn before you have to reload it? I know its off topic but I was just curious. I installed a jotul f 400 this year.

Most people have different opinions on how to measure burn times.

For me it's the ability to put wood on and have a fire start. My house is over insulated so it stays between 70 and 80 for hours after the fire burns out

For some people it's if there stove is still putting out usable heat.