What am I doing wrong? (thick logs don't keep the fire)

[yuryk]

Dear Community!

Looks like my pre-winter drills don't go as smoothly as I thought it would be... I'm a bit concerned, if to be honest.

I would like to share my third burning experience and ask you to please let me know what did I do wrong. Long story short, my issues were:

• mainly I could not maintain the fire even with half open air flow (sometimes even fully open did not help, so I had to open the door and blow through).
• soot on the viewing glass

My main assumption is probably wood was not dry enough. But I took it from a specific stack of the most dry wood I had! Yes, I made a mistake of not checking all the logs with my moisture meter, but that stack had mostly wood of moisture below 24 when I stacked it about a month ago... Anyway, next time will use my meter before loading the stove for sure!

So, here is my detailed report. Outside temperature was about 52F (11C). I went outside and picked up my kindlings with few logs. My plan was to set up a top-bottom fire for the first time. So I put the biggest logs at the bottom and smallest at the top (under some newspaper). Then I lit the newspaper with fully opened flue, air intake and the door. After igniting I left the door crack open and it looked like this:

I worried about the secondary tubes a bit, because after about 20 minutes they were a very tiny bit glowing... But I don't know how this can be avoided in a top-down... Do you?

Anyway, it looked good to me and after about 7 minutes I closed the door and the flue, leaving air intake fully open. After about 10 more minutes I closed the air intake to 1/2 and it looked okay at first. So after another 10 minutes I closed it about 25% more. And again it looked okay with blue fire and secondaries working at first, but then after some time the fire started getting less and less until it disappeared, leaving only glowing coals.

I then fully opened air intake, but it dit not help. I closed the flue and opened the door, then after 5 minutes the fire started again. I waited about 5-7 more minutes and closed the door and the flue. At that moment it looked like this:

I thought that it's enough for me to shut the air intake for at least half way, which I did. The fire began to dwindle once more, leaving only the right side alight, where some thinner pieces of wood remained:

As you see, the left side was done completely for some reason...

After I left it for an hour or so, that thin wood was finished and mostly only glowing coals remained:

Heat output was much lower... From here I left it for some time and when came back saw this:

Again, this was with 1/2 air intake open. So I opened it fully, but it dod not help. Then I just went to sleep leaving it like this. And in the morning (after about 7 hours) I found the stove barely warm with this inside:

And even despite struggling to maintain the fire, there was a lot of soot on the glass:

So, it did burn! But why it was so hard to get the fire going? Is it only because the wood might have not been dry enough? OR can it be because the logs were too thick? Or maybe it's my first time top-bottom method? Or something else? If you ask whether or not there was smoke from the flue - I did check it few times. During all the stages there was smoke. Even during that last glowing coals stage there was a steady semi-transparent, but very visible smoke coming out. That might be pointing to the wood condition?

If this is the wood and not my way of doing things, I have another question: is the only way out to burn whole night with open (or almost open) air intake, so that there is fire? I know from another thread that I have to look for the blue fire, but it's not there when the air is rushing in... So I guess I would just be burning much more my first year?

Please share your suggestions! Thank you very much in advance!

P.S.: I have a Lopi Large Flush Wood Fireplace Insert w/o cat with 30ft insulated liner in exterior chimney.

 

[stoveliker]

Likely wetness yes.

"Close the flue" is a key damper?
May not be needed yet.

 

[kborndale]

Sounds like wet wood, also 52 degrees is going to weaken your draft.

 

[yuryk]

"Close the flue" is a key damper? May not be needed yet.

Sorry, need to get better and get used to the correct terminology here... I meant the "bypass". So "flue closed" = "bypass pushed in". May not be needed? I thought we close it as soon as the draft establishes and the door is closed, no?

also 52 degrees is going to weaken your draft.

Yes, but the draft was surprisingly awesome even with the cold flue. I specifically tested that with the door wide open when was just starting that fire - all the smoke went right into the flue... But maybe I did not yet experience a better draft...

And if it's really wet wood - what's the solution here? Just burn it faster, aka "air control open all the way" through the whole night?

 

[stoveliker]

Bypass depends on stove model, and I don't know yours.
My "not yet needed" was about a flue damper; given poor draft at these temps I would not diminish draft with a flue damper. But you apparently don't have one so you can disregard that remark.

Draft.may still be too poor to suck enough air in thru the inlets of the stove; a wholly different situation than having a door open.

Bigger pieces of wood are more moist.
What species of wood and how long has it been split and stacked?
24 % a month ago is rather marginal, and if that was in thinner splits, your wood is too wet.

 

[begreen]

It's not a terribly bad fire, just a little slow. With a 10º drop in outdoor temps the draft will increase notably and the air control will need to be shut down further.

The bypass on this stove is not a flue damper. When closed, it routes the smoke under the baffle and then to the cat and out the flue. With it open, the smoke goes straight up with no obstructions.

 

[yuryk]

Bypass depends on stove model, and I don't know yours.

I was hoping for my signature to talk, but will include it in the post explicitly for more visibility.

Bigger pieces of wood are more moist.

But at the same time I read here that bigger pieces of wood burn longer, right? So what's the solution here? Just to season longer? Or split more?

What species of wood and how long has it been split and stacked?

I have asked the guy the other day, he said he delivers mix of 3 of them to me: red oak, hickory and maple. I'm still struggling in identifying the last two, but red oak is pretty easy to. How long? I've basically started ordering in July - that's when they split their "seasoned" trunks and delivered to me. I stacked it right away. I'm trying to follow this forum's advice to order as much as I can fit (properly) into my shed/tent, so that I have better wood in the following years.

It's not a terribly bad fire, just a little slow. With a 10º drop in outdoor temps the draft will increase notably and the air control will need to be shut down further.

Thank you, that's encouraging! Is the soot build-up not terrible/normal too? Do you guys see something like that after every night?

The bypass on this stove is not a flue damper. When closed, it routes the smoke under the baffle and then to the cat and out the flue. With it open, the smoke goes straight up with no obstructions.

That's right, I'm sorry, I used the wrong term here. But yeah, I push the bypass all the way in, so that smoke goes through the secondary tubes as soon as possible to re-burn. Although, my secondaries did not work at all this time, despite there was smoke coming out the chimney...

 

[stoveliker]

I was hoping for my signature to talk, but will include it in the post explicitly for more visibility.

It does, but I am not familiar with this stove.

But at the same time I read here that bigger pieces of wood burn longer, right? So what's the solution here? Just to season longer? Or split more?

Season longer, or barring that split smaller. But do measure the biggest three splits in your stack (after resplitting them) on the freshly exposed surface to see what it is.

I have asked the guy the other day, he said he delivers mix of 3 of them to me: red oak, hickory and maple. I'm still struggling in identifying the last two, but red oak is pretty easy to. How long? I've basically started ordering in July - that's when they split their "seasoned" trunks and delivered to me. I stacked it right away. I'm trying to follow this forum's advice to order as much as I can fit (properly) into my shed/tent, so that I have better wood in the following years.

Then yes, it is most probably a combination of wood that's still too wet and draft that is not yet ideal (for wetter.wood!)
If you measured maple (inside, after resplitting) at 24 % - which would surprise me, given the July stacking - then oak and hickory will be in the 30% . If that's what you had in the stove now, it explains most of it.
Trunks are not seasoned. Ever. Wood starts drying after splitting and being stacked off the ground (rather than piled in a heap on the ground).

Thank you, that's encouraging! Is the soot build-up not terrible/normal too? Do you guys see something like that after every night?

If I burn low (BK-low) yes, my window will be dark. Even with dry wood.

That's right, I'm sorry, I used the wrong term here. But yeah, I push the bypass all the way in, so that smoke goes through the secondary tubes as soon as possible to re-burn. Although, my secondaries did not work at all this time, despite there was smoke coming out the chimney...

Smoke does not go thru secondary tubes; instead secondary tubes provide preheated air to further burn half-burnt gases in a northern light like fire up top.
The bypass.is to route the smoke through a catalyst which also combusts smoke and e.g. CO.

 

[kborndale]

If your wood was just split in July you are going to have a rough winter. Maybe look to get some construction cutoffs or pallet wood (none with a green tinge to them) to mix in with your wet wood, or get some bio bricks or equivalent to mix in. With a 30 ft chimney you should get a very strong draft so that helps at least. And as to the signature, I don't see it unless I turn my phone sideways which I never do on here so I never see anybody's signature.

 

[CatfishHunter]

I also think that your wood is not seasoned enough. Go to the local gas station and buy a bundle of their pricey firewood. It's usually dry enough for a good fire. See how that works in your stove.

I get soot on my glass if the wood is too close or actually touching the glass. You can clean it if desired. I find that a hot fire will clean off the glass eventually.

 

[Slimdusty]

I find it helps to establish a good bed of coals and then load up my stove for an overnight burn. Proper burning is an art form of sorts, and takes time to get proficient. It took me a whole winter to get used to my stove. This was your 3rd fire I believe you stated, you’re on the right track and will get there with time. Dont get discouraged. Btw I have the medium flush non cat, the bypass is only for starting a fire and reloads to prevent smoke spillage. Other than that it is always closed.

 

[yuryk]

Go to the local gas station and buy a bundle of their pricey firewood. It's usually dry enough for a good fire. See how that works in your stove.

Yeah, good suggestion, thanks! I got that same idea yesterday when looked through my wood-related photos, where I used klin-dried wood for an outside fire for kebabs... Would be interesting to try it out in the stove with similar outside temp conditions! I will post here when I try, thanks!

I get soot on my glass if the wood is too close or actually touching the glass. You can clean it if desired. I find that a hot fire will clean off the glass eventually.

Good to know, thank you! I like clean glass, but a thought that I'd have to clean it every day was a bit disappointing... Will try to leave it next time.

I find it helps to establish a good bed of coals and then load up my stove for an overnight burn.

I think it would be more preferable method for me too, because I'm worried about the tubes at the top. Cold top-down start made them a tiny bit glowing and I think it's not very good for them.

Proper burning is an art form of sorts, and takes time to get proficient. It took me a whole winter to get used to my stove. This was your 3rd fire I believe you stated, you’re on the right track and will get there with time. Dont get discouraged.

Thank you! It helps a lot to input and support from you guys!

Btw I have the medium flush non cat, the bypass is only for starting a fire and reloads to prevent smoke spillage. Other than that it is always closed.

Makes sense, thanks. Since you mentioned that, do you have your secondary tubes always working, especially during overnight burns? I have a feeling that they work similar to a cat, in a way that secondary burn happens only above certain temperature of the stove...

 

[stoveliker]

Gas station wood rarely is below 25 percent in my experience.

The tubes are fine if they glow.

 

[begreen]

In lieu of testing, bring some of the thicker pieces of wood indoors and weigh them. Keep them in a box indoors for a few weeks, then weigh again. If there is a 1+ pound difference, the wood has not fully seasoned inside. If this is the case it will require mixing drier pieces with the less seasoned wood,

Secondary burn can look anemic, yet still be functioning correctly.

 

[stoveliker]

I think as long as the chimney looks good (only heat and no smoke in this weather (in cold winter one could see water vapor condensing into clouds), it doesn't matter how the secondaries look.

The goal is not secondaries but a clean exhaust.

 

[yuryk]

Gas station wood rarely is below 25 percent in my experience.

Might be, but I used a home improvement store and there the wood was as dry as it can be. And it was birch. Probably not the most dense, but really-really dry. Paid $12 per 0.6 cu ft - much more expensive compared to a cord.

The tubes are fine if they glow.

I was worried because I remember seeing in Lopi manual that if any part is glowing red, it means I'm overheating the stove, so it voids their warranty.

The goal is not secondaries but a clean exhaust.

Right, but I thought secondaries contribute to a clean exhaust in case of not ideal wood... But I might be missing something.

 

[stoveliker]

Might be, but I used a home improvement store and there the wood was as dry as it can be. And it was birch. Probably not the most dense, but really-really dry. Paid $12 per 0.6 cu ft - much more expensive compared to a cord.
View attachment 329636

Okay. That's differently packaged than I've seen it. In any case, when comparing behavior to your wood, resplit a piece and measure on the inside, so you know what exactly you're comparing.

I was worried because I remember seeing in Lopi manual that if any part is glowing red, it means I'm overheating the stove, so it voids their warranty.

If a Lopi can't handle glowing tubes when directly above the flames, something would be awry I think. It's not the goal to make them glow, but they should be fine with that. I also note that it's really hard to see if something is glowing (for me) when there is a lot of red light from a fire in a firebox.

If something on the outside (near the exhaust collar) glows red, then surely that's a problem.

Right, but I thought secondaries contribute to a clean exhaust in case of not ideal wood... But I might be missing something.

Yes, they do contribute to clean the exhaust - also with dry wood. THey are not a "catch all" that make it possible to burn cleanly with poor wood...
Point is that when the primary fire burns clean, the secondary fire may not have much to do. As in at the end of a burn when you have a pile of coals with some blue flames on it, there may not be enough left for any secondary combusion.
Don't mistake the means (secondary) for the goal (cleanliness).

 

[CatfishHunter]

I find it helps to establish a good bed of coals and then load up my stove for an overnight burn. Proper burning is an art form of sorts, and takes time to get proficient. It took me a whole winter to get used to my stove. This was your 3rd fire I believe you stated, you’re on the right track and will get there with time. Dont get discouraged.

I guess I missed that this was a third fire....is that ever?

I didn't grow up around fires. I tried in vain many times as a young man to make fires. Eventually I went camping with a couple of ladies that really knew what they were doing. I watched and learned....and learned I did!

Hopefully this doesn't sound condescending but:
- watch some ytube videos about building fires. I'm sure they exist
- start with kindling and keep feeding kindling, then slowly add slightly bigger pieces
- most people fail building a fire because they try to use pieces that are too big, too fast
- don't smother the fire

A fire will tell you what it wants. Like a dog wagging its tail, it will also let you know when you made it happy. If you are adding bigger splits and the fire isn't roaring within a minute or two (assuming all dampers open) then the fire wasn't ready for that big of piece, or the wood wasn't dry enough.

 

[stoveliker]

There is a good "sticky" thread by begreen someplace here that details how (his system) evolves when starting a fire. Temp measurements, pictures, etc.

Problem is that I seriously can't ever find these supposed "sticky" threads. They are not at the top of this page, nor when I click on the big logo top left, nor in Forums, nor when I click on "home".

They are effectively hidden, which foregoes their purpose... But that's for a thread in another forum here...

 

[yuryk]

Point is that when the primary fire burns clean, the secondary fire may not have much to do.

Exactly what I thought! But my stove shows me I'm wrong, because I see no secondaries working, thinking "oh, it must be a clean burn!", but then seeing smoke from the chimney and wondering: "why the heck my secondaries did not burn these remaining gases and particulates?" I lean towards not having the right conditions. Maybe too low of a temperature near them? But the fire was roaring at first... So still trying to figure it out.

I guess I missed that this was a third fire....is that ever?

No-no, not ever. I share your passion - I loved fire from my childhood: every time I was getting home from the street - I smelled like a bonfire It's just my 3rd fire with this stove and it's my first ever wood stove. Before I only dealt with bonfires and quick fires for preparing glowing coals for things like barbecue, etc. Using a wood stove for heating is totally different - I have to do it efficiently, but make it hot at the same time... So a lot more to learn!

There is a good "sticky" thread by begreen someplace here that details how (his system) evolves when starting a fire. Temp measurements, pictures, etc.

Yes, thank you, I actually tried to follow it! And the link is right there in The Hearth Room - Wood Stoves and Fireplaces forum in sticky threads section. It's called "Starting a fire and running an EPA stove".

 

[stoveliker]

Exactly what I thought! But my stove shows me I'm wrong, because I see no secondaries working, thinking "oh, it must be a clean burn!", but then seeing smoke from the chimney and wondering: "why the heck my secondaries did not burn these remaining gases and particulates?" I lean towards not having the right conditions. Maybe too low of a temperature near them? But the fire was roaring at first... So still trying to figure it out.

Hm, with smoke and no secondaries, the fire could have been too cool indeed,.or the draft isn't enough to suck in enough air thru the secondary tubes (which could be due to the outside temps or a top cool fire...)

 

[begreen]

Might be, but I used a home improvement store and there the wood was as dry as it can be. And it was birch. Probably not the most dense, but really-really dry. Paid $12 per 0.6 cu ft - much more expensive compared to a cord.
View attachment 329636


I was worried because I remember seeing in Lopi manual that if any part is glowing red, it means I'm overheating the stove, so it voids their warranty.


Right, but I thought secondaries contribute to a clean exhaust in case of not ideal wood... But I might be missing something.

This insert has a cat that cleans up any residual smoke after the secondaries. That's why it's called a hybrid. If the cat thermometer is in the active range, it's doing its job.

 

[yuryk]

This insert has a cat that cleans up any residual smoke after the secondaries.

Actually, my insert doesn't have a cat. I specifically chose the previous model to make sure I'm not maintaining/changing the cat AND not waiting for it to reach certain temp. That's why I'm a bit worried that my secondaries did not work - I thought having those 4 tubes (vs just 2 in Hybrid) would have a bigger surface and thus would burn more residual gases... But I guess (hope) I'll eventually get there - I'm still learning... Maybe my tubes need a certain temp too...

 

[bigealta]

This might help.

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[begreen]

Actually, my insert doesn't have a cat. I specifically chose the previous model to make sure I'm not maintaining/changing the cat AND not waiting for it to reach certain temp. That's why I'm a bit worried that my secondaries did not work - I thought having those 4 tubes (vs just 2 in Hybrid) would have a bigger surface and thus would burn more residual gases... But I guess (hope) I'll eventually get there - I'm still learning... Maybe my tubes need a certain temp too...

I guess I'm confused at what model this is. The Lopi Large Flush Hybrid had a cat years ago, at least a decade ago IIRC. Is this the Declaration insert?