Small Fireplace, Large Room

[mitah]

We have an unlined fireplace in our living room that was adapted at one point to use a large cast-iron stove. The stove sits on a tile hearth and is connected to an 8-inch liner. We've never used it because we were told that the stove is too close to the wood mantel and that the hearth is not thick enough for an old stove like that. We've decided that we want to replace the stove with a wood-burning insert and shrink the hearth from its enormous 40-inch size to what I believe is the minimum: 16 inches. We had someone give us an estimate, and he recommended a Regency I1200 because of size constraints (27.5W 28.5H 17.25D). He said it would be $1500 to remove the old liner and $4200 for the insert, new liner, and installation (three-story house). Now I've been in an internet rabbit hole of insert info all day, and while I understand a lot more than I did before, I'm still not sure if this is a good insert for our space.

1. Is this a reasonable price? The insert seems to run about $2100, and a liner should cost about $600, plus $500 various other expenses, so that's maybe $1000 for installation--plus even more for taking out the old liner and cleaning. Is it really that much more work to take out the old liner?

2. Are we going to be sad after spending all this money that we don't have a more-powerful one? We have forced air and don't intend for this to heat the whole house, but I much prefer radiant heat and am hoping that the fire provides a more comfortable heat. The living room is 27x15 and the fireplace sits at one long end of the room. The whole first floor is around 1350 sq. ft. but the sunroom and the kitchen are closed off, so really it's just the living room, dining room, and entryway, but the entryway stairs are open to the second floor, so I'm assuming a lot of heat is going to go up that way. I looked at a few other inserts and there seem to be others that would fit that put out more heat. I know a lot of it is personal preference, but I'm mostly hoping to hear from others if I should be worried about such a small insert in a big room.

These are all small but the Lopi seems to put out the most heat.
Regency I1200: 23W 19H 13.25D, 1.4cu.ft, 55,000BTU, 1200sq.ft, 77.7% efficient, 3g/hr emissions
Lopi Answer: 23.5W 20H 14.5D, 1.6cu.ft, 66,800BTU, 1400sq.ft, 79.6% efficient, 4.4g/hr emissions
Hearthstone Morgan: 25W 22.5H 15D, 1.7cu.ft, 40,000 BTU, 1200sq.ft, 79% efficient, 4.3g/hr emissions
The larger Regency actually seems like it should fit, but I'm not as into the shape coming out into the room.
Regency I2400: 25W 21.5H 17D, 2.3cu.ft, 75,000BTU, 2000sq.ft, 77% efficient, 3.44g/hr emissions
These two are close, not sure they'd fit.
Jotul C450 Kennebec: 27.5W 23H 14D, 2.05cu.ft, 50,000 BTU, 1600sq.ft, 75% efficient, 4.4g/hr emissions
Enviro Kodiac 1700: 27W 19H 18D, 2.5cu.ft, 74,000 BTU, 3000sq.ft, 84.7% efficient, 4.5g/hr emissions

Thanks if you got through this novel of post!

 

[begreen]

For sure get more quotes. Not sure why the old liner is being pulled. Has it been compromised or was it improperly installed. If the liner is ok, adapt the 6" to 8". That should work ok with a three story tall liner.

What is the goal here - 24/7 heating or nights and weekend fires? If the goal is 24/7 heat then maybe consider a replacement for the old stove that has rear shielding that work with the mantel. However, if the fireplace will fit any of the inserts listed then the Enviro Kodiak 1700 is worth considering, but maybe in the Enviro Boston or Cabello 1700 trim for a better look in the house.

 

[HomeinPA]

For sure get more quotes. Not sure why the old liner is being pulled. Has it been compromised or was it improperly installed. If the liner is ok, adapt the 6" to 8". That should work ok with a three story tall liner.

What is the goal here - 24/7 heating or nights and weekend fires? If the goal is 24/7 heat then maybe consider a replacement for the old stove that has rear shielding that work with the mantel. However, if the fireplace will fit any of the inserts listed then the Enviro Kodiak 1700 is worth considering, but maybe in the Enviro Boston or Cabello 1700 trim for a better look in the house.

A few reasons that I would take out the liner is because I didn't install it and I have no idea if it's properly installed, what it's made of, whether it has proper insulation with it and/or what other issues might be hidden by it's installation. If I put in a new insert and hook it up to your old liner and something bad happens because of that - I'm going to be the one that the insurance company is going to be looking to. I do not install a new stove into somebody else's liner.

 

[HomeinPA]

We have an unlined fireplace in our living room that was adapted at one point to use a large cast-iron stove. The stove sits on a tile hearth and is connected to an 8-inch liner. We've never used it because we were told that the stove is too close to the wood mantel and that the hearth is not thick enough for an old stove like that. We've decided that we want to replace the stove with a wood-burning insert and shrink the hearth from its enormous 40-inch size to what I believe is the minimum: 16 inches. We had someone give us an estimate, and he recommended a Regency I1200 because of size constraints (27.5W 28.5H 17.25D). He said it would be $1500 to remove the old liner and $4200 for the insert, new liner, and installation (three-story house). Now I've been in an internet rabbit hole of insert info all day, and while I understand a lot more than I did before, I'm still not sure if this is a good insert for our space.

1. Is this a reasonable price? The insert seems to run about $2100, and a liner should cost about $600, plus $500 various other expenses, so that's maybe $1000 for installation--plus even more for taking out the old liner and cleaning. Is it really that much more work to take out the old liner?

2. Are we going to be sad after spending all this money that we don't have a more-powerful one? We have forced air and don't intend for this to heat the whole house, but I much prefer radiant heat and am hoping that the fire provides a more comfortable heat. The living room is 27x15 and the fireplace sits at one long end of the room. The whole first floor is around 1350 sq. ft. but the sunroom and the kitchen are closed off, so really it's just the living room, dining room, and entryway, but the entryway stairs are open to the second floor, so I'm assuming a lot of heat is going to go up that way. I looked at a few other inserts and there seem to be others that would fit that put out more heat. I know a lot of it is personal preference, but I'm mostly hoping to hear from others if I should be worried about such a small insert in a big room.

These are all small but the Lopi seems to put out the most heat.
Regency I1200: 23W 19H 13.25D, 1.4cu.ft, 55,000BTU, 1200sq.ft, 77.7% efficient, 3g/hr emissions
Lopi Answer: 23.5W 20H 14.5D, 1.6cu.ft, 66,800BTU, 1400sq.ft, 79.6% efficient, 4.4g/hr emissions
Hearthstone Morgan: 25W 22.5H 15D, 1.7cu.ft, 40,000 BTU, 1200sq.ft, 79% efficient, 4.3g/hr emissions
The larger Regency actually seems like it should fit, but I'm not as into the shape coming out into the room.
Regency I2400: 25W 21.5H 17D, 2.3cu.ft, 75,000BTU, 2000sq.ft, 77% efficient, 3.44g/hr emissions
These two are close, not sure they'd fit.
Jotul C450 Kennebec: 27.5W 23H 14D, 2.05cu.ft, 50,000 BTU, 1600sq.ft, 75% efficient, 4.4g/hr emissions
Enviro Kodiac 1700: 27W 19H 18D, 2.5cu.ft, 74,000 BTU, 3000sq.ft, 84.7% efficient, 4.5g/hr emissions

Thanks if you got through this novel of post!

From your initial measurements I'd have to think that the Regency 2400 would fit in the firebox too. If so, that is the size stove I would go with but I'm not there to verify all the measurements. The 1200 has a much smaller firebox. Have you looked at the Regency Alterra I1250? It sits flush with the front of the firebox for the most part but unfortunately it has the same size firebox as the 1200 so.... there is that.

Price wise, 5700 for a 3 story house where you're pulling one liner, installing a new one (is it insulated?) and installing a new stove...in the Philadelphia market??? I'd guess that's pretty much in the ballpark. These guys that are doing this are making a living at it and they have the tools and experience to do the job (theoretically). I'm sure they'll give you a better price if you want to climb up on that 3 story roof and do the liner work yourself.

 

[begreen]

A few reasons that I would take out the liner is because I didn't install it and I have no idea if it's properly installed, what it's made of, whether it has proper insulation with it and/or what other issues might be hidden by it's installation. If I put in a new insert and hook it up to your old liner and something bad happens because of that - I'm going to be the one that the insurance company is going to be looking to. I do not install a new stove into somebody else's liner.

If the liner is heavy-duty, in good condition and installed correctly, would the homeowner be told the liner has to go so that the installer has no liability? Same practice for a class A chimney?

 

[HomeinPA]

If the liner is heavy-duty, in good condition and installed correctly, would the homeowner be told the liner has to go so that the installer has no liability? Same practice for a class A chimney?

Yup.. I have no idea how the liner is insulated or installed or whether it's even a listed system. In my particular area there are a couple installers who make their own liners and mix in assorted labeled listed parts or use homemade insulation techniques so yes, this properly trained and experienced sweep doesn't take on that liability.

And before replacing a ZC fireplace I will inspect the chimney to a level 3 inspection to verify its a listed system, is properly installed and is approved for use with the new appliance.

I don't know if you do this for a living or not but if you do and you want to accept that liability it's up to you. This is my living and my name and I have to be able to sleep at night.

 

[mitah]

Thank you both for your responses! I have another contractor coming this week, so I'll see what he has to say about the sizing and the liner. I'm leaning towards trying to get a larger insert. Not sure about replacing the liner since it adds so much expense, but I definitely understand the point about not wanting to insure someone else's work. We've already fixed a bunch of things in the house that were less-than-expertly retrofitted.

 

[HomeinPA]

Thank you both for your responses! I have another contractor coming this week, so I'll see what he has to say about the sizing and the liner. I'm leaning towards trying to get a larger insert. Not sure about replacing the liner since it adds so much expense, but I definitely understand the point about not wanting to insure someone else's work. We've already fixed a bunch of things in the house that were less-than-expertly retrofitted.

Hopefully it'll be a good report and they can get you fixed up. Let us know what they find.

 

[mitah]

Just a follow-up in case anyone was wondering. We had the liner replaced and the Regency 1200 put in. The chimney was not insulated, so they ended up having to wrap the new liner, and the whole thing took two guys most of the day. It's probably good that we had the liner replaced. Lots of bad things happened here in the seventies.

I had a moment of horror when they showed me the "finished" product--they had put the surround on but covered up (unevenly!) the tiles, which they had said they wouldn't.


But I did a little research and found that the surround is not actually necessary as long as you have a block-off plate, so I had them take off the surround and paint the pipe, and we put in some roxul and sheet metal for a block-off plate. It's kind of like a stove, just in the fireplace and with a blower. I like it! I'm actually sitting next to it right now.


It's definitely not the most powerful insert, but it's very nice to sit next to for some radiant heat, and seeing it in place now, I don't think we could have fit anything larger. It seems like most people on here are looking to heat their whole homes with wood stoves, so I just thought I'd post a perspective from a more casual user.

 

[moresnow]

Good to hear you resolved your situation. Is it heating as well as you hoped? Curious.

 

[HomeinPA]

Looks great! Glad you're enjoying it.

IF you want to try the surround again you can try leveling the stove left to right, possibly by using a shim (a noncombustible shim) along the right side to raise it a bit, and then reattach the surround. A few properly spaced quarters might do it. That should square it up on the tiles but you'd have a small gap along the bottom right side that you wouldn't really notice since it's such a short distance.