Smoke leak

[Megunticook]

While loading the Encore today I saw a tiny bit of smoke come out the seam where the top meets one side. Never seen that before. Not noticing any performance issues. Stove is 22 years old, well-maintained and used daily. Do I need to remove the top to reseal or can I just use a little stove cement like caulk on that seam?

Local dealer told me years ago I should completely disassemble and rebuild every so often. I was skeptical (she also said I should "peg" the stovetop thermometer before engaging the cat which is just nonsense). But maybe after 22 years it's time?

 

[stoveliker]

Yes, I think so. My old Dutch West needed it too.

 

[Drew777]

Yes, I think so. My old Dutch West needed it too.

I just rebuilt my Dutchwest too. I never would have known all the areas to look for and try to reseal if I hadn't done the full rebuild. Plus areas like around the front - there's really no way to reseal that without taking the entire front off. Might have been able to just take the top and front off to do a standing reseal around the entire firebox, but one thing for sure is I'm really happy about doing the full rebuild - zero smoke, just nice clean warmth.
If it's starting to smoke but you like the stove, do a rebuild or have someone do a proper rebuild for you, it'll serve you at least another 22 yrs under the same conditions if it's done right.

 

[stoveliker]

Yes. I didn't rebuild but sold it and bought a more efficient stove (mine was from 1982...)
But these stoves need to be rebuilt every now and then. 30 years is is a decent run anyway.

 

[Drew777]

Mine was made in 97, I find it really efficient compared to about 95% of today's stoves. But yea, a rebuild is definitely the way to go if she's starting to smoke after 20+ years

 

[bholler]

Mine was made in 97, I find it really efficient compared to about 95% of today's stoves. But yea, a rebuild is definitely the way to go if she's starting to smoke after 20+ years

It is absolutely not as efficient durable or easy to use as most of the new stuff available honestly. But absolutely a complete tear down and rebuild is needed. Probably will end up needing some new parts as well they always do. Make sure you do a dry fit first so you know everything fits back together properly

 

[Drew777]

It is absolutely not as efficient durable or easy to use as most of the new stuff available honestly

I'm familiar with practically every brand sold in the US and I'd have to disagree. But some brands did slip my mind earlier so I will take it back and say 75%. The Dutchwests were awesome stoves, a lot of what's made today is total crap. I only have their smallest model and it's not uncommon for me to get 8+hr burn times.

 

[bholler]

I'm familiar with practically every brand sold in the US and I'd have to disagree. But some brands did slip my mind earlier so I will take it back and say 75%. The Dutchwests were awesome stoves, a lot of what's made today is total crap. I only have their smallest model and it's not uncommon for me to get 8+hr burn times.

Your stove was absolutely fantastic stove for its day and are still good stoves even now. But the efficiency just isn't up with stuff on the market now.

 

[Drew777]

Then why can't a majority of the new stoves get the same amount of burn time on the same amount of wood? We should start a new thread on it, not really suitable here

 

[Megunticook]

To get back to the original topic here, sounds like I may need to rebuild this summer.

To be clear, I've only seen the smoke leak out the top the one time. It was drizzly, low pressure day, relatively warm in the 40s. I had only one of the front doors open. So it's not like I'm constantly getting smoke in the house (believe me, my wife would let me know!). But if there's enough of a gap to let smoke out then air is obviously getting in. It's not much because I'm not having any overfiring issues but I guess it's a red flag regardless and should be dealt with.

I spoke with another local VC dealer last year to see what he recommended regarding rebuilds, he said only do it if you really need to because after 20 years you're going to have seized bolts to extract, etc. Could be a potential nightmare. I removed the fireback a few years back when I replaced the refractory assembly and it was not exactly a fun job...although I got it back together again fine.

Maybe I just look at it as a complete top-to-bottom restoration that makes the stove look and perform as good as new again.

 

[bholler]

To get back to the original topic here, sounds like I may need to rebuild this summer.

To be clear, I've only seen the smoke leak out the top the one time. It was drizzly, low pressure day, relatively warm in the 40s. I had only one of the front doors open. So it's not like I'm constantly getting smoke in the house (believe me, my wife would let me know!). But if there's enough of a gap to let smoke out then air is obviously getting in. It's not much because I'm not having any overfiring issues but I guess it's a red flag regardless and should be dealt with.

I spoke with another local VC dealer last year to see what he recommended regarding rebuilds, he said only do it if you really need to because after 20 years you're going to have seized bolts to extract, etc. Could be a potential nightmare. I removed the fireback a few years back when I replaced the refractory assembly and it was not exactly a fun job...although I got it back together again fine.

Maybe I just look at it as a complete top-to-bottom restoration that makes the stove look and perform as good as new again.

Yeah it sounds like you probably need a complete rebuild. And no it won't be fun. There will be some bolts that need drilled out etc.

 

[bholler]

Then why can't a majority of the new stoves get the same amount of burn time on the same amount of wood? We should start a new thread on it, not really suitable here

Burn time isn't what determines efficiency. Efficiency is determined by measuring the percentage of the btus contained in the wood that end up in the house vs what is lost to outside.

But pretty much any smaller stove with a cat on the market now will match the burn time of you cdw. Small non cats generally wont

 

[Drew777]

I snapped 2 bolts dismantling my stove for rebuild, took some time and some fresh cobalt drill bits to get them out then I had to tap the holes one size bigger.
One thing I regret on my rebuild, instead of wire brushing all the channels I wish I had just taken the panels to my buddy's sandblaster, the amount he would have charged me was a lot less than my time to chisel and wire brush the old cement (and the old paint- I repainted mine)

 

[Drew777]

Burn time isn't what determines efficiency. Efficiency is determined by measuring the percentage of the btus contained in the wood that end up in the house vs what is lost to outside.

But pretty much any smaller stove with a cat on the market now will match the burn time of you cdw. Small non cats generally wont

I get what you're saying - I honestly didn't know that's what actually determines efficiency, thank you for that. But if efficiency ratings have been accurate and legit over the span of the past 25 yrs, I'm not seeing it in real life, with the exception of some higher end stoves. Even the dealers will tell you what they say you'll get isn't what you'll actually get.
Relating this to the thread, I feel like a properly rebuilt older stove is generally worth it compared to a new stove. I personally go by burn times and how much space the stove heats in real life. You also get so many BTUs out of single wall pipe, not just the stove. If a older stove has performed to your needs without warping or deteriorating, treat it right with a fresh rebuild you'll be so happy you did.
Would love if you could mention just a few models I could compare and contrast to my dutchwest.

 

[bholler]

I get what you're saying - I honestly didn't know that's what actually determines efficiency, thank you for that. But if efficiency ratings have been accurate and legit over the span of the past 25 yrs, I'm not seeing it in real life, with the exception of some higher end stoves. Even the dealers will tell you what they say you'll get isn't what you'll actually get.
Relating this to the thread, I feel like a properly rebuilt older stove is generally worth it compared to a new stove. I personally go by burn times and how much space the stove heats in real life. You also get so many BTUs out of single wall pipe, not just the stove. If a older stove has performed to your needs without warping or deteriorating, treat it right with a fresh rebuild you'll be so happy you did.
Would love if you could mention just a few models I could compare and contrast to my dutchwest.

Well I would never recommend someone replace an old stove they like that is in good shape. And yes you aren't going to see exactly what they get with highly controlled lab testing but it's a good point of comparison.
As far as modern stoves comparable to your Dutch west. Any of the 20 boxes from bk are a good equivalent size wise and have a cat. They absolutely destroy the dw on burn time and low btu performance. High btu I don't think they have much advantage. The Woodstock fire view and keystone are decent comparisons as well. Yes those are all high end stoves but so was the Dutch west in its day. The purchase price new adjusted for inflation isn't much different.

 

[Drew777]

Well I would never recommend someone replace an old stove they like that is in good shape. And yes you aren't going to see exactly what they get with highly controlled lab testing but it's a good point of comparison.
As far as modern stoves comparable to your Dutch west. Any of the 20 boxes from bk are a good equivalent size wise and have a cat. They absolutely destroy the dw on burn time and low btu performance. High btu I don't think they have much advantage. The Woodstock fire view and keystone are decent comparisons as well. Yes those are all high end stoves but so was the Dutch west in its day. The purchase price new adjusted for inflation isn't much different.

Yea the bk's are awesome. They're the most ideal stove you can ask for performance wise. But they're steel boxes not sure how long they really last. Not sure if the Ashford is just cast iron clad or the firebox is cast iron too, I gotta look at those again. They're not really the best looking stoves. This guy I work for has 8 models in his showroom. If I were to get a new stove for myself or someone in my family it would be a bk.
The woodstocks look beautiful but I don't have any personal experience with them. Looks like they don't have ash pans I'd hate that lol. Performance wise they look comparable to dw for sure but in real life probably slightly better as well.

 

[bholler]

Yea the bk's are awesome. They're the most ideal stove you can ask for performance wise. But they're steel boxes not sure how long they really last. Not sure if the Ashford is just cast iron clad or the firebox is cast iron too, I gotta look at those again. They're not really the best looking stoves. This guy I work for has 8 models in his showroom. If I were to get a new stove for myself or someone in my family it would be a bk.
The woodstocks look beautiful but I don't have any personal experience with them. Looks like they don't have ash pans I'd hate that lol. Performance wise they look comparable to dw for sure but in real life probably slightly better as well.

Ok you asked for compatible stoves to your dw. So I picked the only small cat stoves I could think of. But the fact is even modern noncats are more efficient than your dw. No they don't give you the really long burn times you get from good cat stoves but they are low maintenance very efficient heaters. I think you as an industry professional should really do some more research so you can better understand the stoves you are installing

 

[Drew777]

I am very educated in stoves, that's why I said most of what's out there is crap lol. I'll add to your list though since you couldn't come up with much - Hearthstone makes some really nice stoves that definitely outperform the DW.

 

[bholler]

I am very educated in stoves, that's why I said most of what's out there is crap lol. I'll add to your list though since you couldn't come up with much - Hearthstone makes some really nice stoves that definitely outperform the DW.

I don'tthink hearthstones perform that well. If we are just talking brands that out perform dw not direct comparisons let's see. Pacific energy, lopi, buck, Regency, quadrafire, all of the sbi lines, Blaze King, Woodstock, Kuma, Jotul.

And I'm sorry you didn't know what efficiency meant. You question the quality of plate steel stoves. Both of those things are red flags.

Again the original design Dutch wests from before vc took over are wonderful stoves. Without question one of the best of their day. And those that survived still work well today. But they simply don't match the efficiency or clean burning of modern stoves.

 

[Drew777]

A majority of what you named is junk imo that I'd steer any customer away from, no offense. Plate steel is alright if you don't mind replacing the stove in under 10 years if it's a primary heat source.
But let's take Pacific energy as a great comparison, the Alderea T4. Max BTUs between 56k (what they claim) and 23k (EPA test), so we'll say 40k. Efficiency 72% (which is skewed by today's standards for all stoves under current regulations) and 1.9gm/hr emissions.

And the smallest Dutchwest, 2460. The numbers back then were more legit if you ask me. 35k BTUs, 69.7% efficiency, 1.1g/hr emissions.

Meanwhile they're not telling you that pacific energy stove in real world you'll be happy to have usable coals after 6hrs, which is the norm for stoves that size without cats. The smallest dutchwest you'll still have good starting coals after 8hrs and sometimes 10!
A majority of what you listed has very similar numbers, sometimes less. So are you really going to tell me these new stoves are "so much more" efficient and clean burning?? That's a joke. This comparable size stove is listed as a 2% difference in efficiency! And that's comparing legit numbers from 25+yrs ago vs the skewed numbers today! Not to mention the DW puts out nearly half the emissions! Pacific energy claims their stoves put out more BTUs but EPA found the dutchwest puts out more. The same goes for almost everything you listed.
Pacific energy I won't knock their manufacturing quality, they're very well made, reliable, and easy to use. As for some others on your list though, some of what comes out of their factories is laughable.
Ultimately what I'm stressing is that a majority of the new stoves aren't any better from any standpoint than the stoves from 25yrs ago. And I stress the word majority. The exception is a few higher end companies that stand out because of the technology in their air controls.

I'm surprised you don't like hearthstone. This one was from 2002 that I reinstalled. The customers liked it so much they moved it from their old house to a new construction they had built. I'm using my nanometer to set the barometric damper as the chimney was 30'+. Heats over 2,000 sq ft and gets filled every 8 hrs. Another example of an older stove that's more efficient than a majority of new stoves but not as efficient as the few elite.

 

[bholler]

Yes if you just randomly decide that the current testing methods that are actually far more accurate are wrong then yeah your assumptions are correct when it comes to efficiency. But I don't have any clue why you would think that. And if you knew the epa testing procedures for btu output you would understand why the epa numbers are so much lower. They don't load the stove full.

Then we come to steel stoves. I work on well over 100 plate steel stoves that are well over 10 years old. And many over 20. Yes if someone abuses them they will fail quickly but the same goes for cast stoves.

Are you really saying that you install barometric dampers on woodstoves????

 

[bholler]

A majority of what you named is junk imo that I'd steer any customer away from, no offense. Plate steel is alright if you don't mind replacing the stove in under 10 years if it's a primary heat source.
But let's take Pacific energy as a great comparison, the Alderea T4. Max BTUs between 56k (what they claim) and 23k (EPA test), so we'll say 40k. Efficiency 72% (which is skewed by today's standards for all stoves under current regulations) and 1.9gm/hr emissions.
View attachment 325797
And the smallest Dutchwest, 2460. The numbers back then were more legit if you ask me. 35k BTUs, 69.7% efficiency, 1.1g/hr emissions.
View attachment 325796
Meanwhile they're not telling you that pacific energy stove in real world you'll be happy to have usable coals after 6hrs, which is the norm for stoves that size without cats. The smallest dutchwest you'll still have good starting coals after 8hrs and sometimes 10!
A majority of what you listed has very similar numbers, sometimes less. So are you really going to tell me these new stoves are "so much more" efficient and clean burning?? That's a joke. This comparable size stove is listed as a 2% difference in efficiency! And that's comparing legit numbers from 25+yrs ago vs the skewed numbers today! Not to mention the DW puts out nearly half the emissions! Pacific energy claims their stoves put out more BTUs but EPA found the dutchwest puts out more. The same goes for almost everything you listed.
Pacific energy I won't knock their manufacturing quality, they're very well made, reliable, and easy to use. As for some others on your list though, some of what comes out of their factories is laughable.
Ultimately what I'm stressing is that a majority of the new stoves aren't any better from any standpoint than the stoves from 25yrs ago. And I stress the word majority. The exception is a few higher end companies that stand out because of the technology in their air controls.

I'm surprised you don't like hearthstone. This one was from 2002 that I reinstalled. The customers liked it so much they moved it from their old house to a new construction they had built. I'm using my nanometer to set the barometric damper as the chimney was 30'+. Heats over 2,000 sq ft and gets filled every 8 hrs. Another example of an older stove that's more efficient than a majority of new stoves but not as efficient as the few elite.
View attachment 325798

Oh and yes those hearth stone stoves were absolutely great stoves I work on several. But not typical of the companies stoves.

When your comparing the burn times of the pe to the dw you need to realize you are looking at a small non cat vs a small cat. The different technologies have different strengths. And adjusted for inflation that dw cost more than the pe.

 

[Drew777]

I was saying even if everything IS accurate, they're not "way more efficient" as you're claiming.
That's good to hear that the steel stoves are holding up. If they're primary heaters I'm surprised, but I believe you. Practically everything out there is steel, and a lot of cast iron ones have steel fireboxes. There's some steel coal burners that hold up to daily burning for 30+yrs, so maybe I'm not that surprised. I've just seen a lot steel woodburners in the early 2000s that didn't last very long. Maybe the quality of the steel and the thicknesses they've been using make the newer ones better. My preference is for cast iron.
Barametric dampers are awesome. I use the rc from field controls. On woodburners I'll only use them on very tall chimneys out of necessity. On coal burners they're really convenient to the stove operator. I haven't installed too many but my customers have been really happy with them. On a high chimney, it's like putting a governor on the stove so it's not at risk of getting over fired. They also keep the stoves running very steady.

 

[Drew777]

I put one of those huge hearthstone inserts in 2 seasons ago that I had to mount a class a system to, the customers said they love it works great. More recently I installed a green mountain and I really liked that thing besides it not having an ash pan. That's a really awesome efficient long burn time unit.

I wonder how much a new dutchwest would go for today 🤔

 

[bholler]

I was saying even if everything IS accurate, they're not "way more efficient" as you're claiming.
That's good to hear that the steel stoves are holding up. If they're primary heaters I'm surprised, but I believe you. Practically everything out there is steel, and a lot of cast iron ones have steel fireboxes. There's some steel coal burners that hold up to daily burning for 30+yrs, so maybe I'm not that surprised. I've just seen a lot steel woodburners in the early 2000s that didn't last very long. Maybe the quality of the steel and the thicknesses they've been using make the newer ones better. My preference is for cast iron.
Barametric dampers are awesome. I use the rc from field controls. On woodburners I'll only use them on very tall chimneys out of necessity. On coal burners they're really convenient to the stove operator. I haven't installed too many but my customers have been really happy with them. On a high chimney, it's like putting a governor on the stove so it's not at risk of getting over fired. They also keep the stoves running very steady.

Yes I know exactly what barometric dampers are and what they do. I install lots on coal burners and oil furnaces. But for wood aren't you concerned about that dilution air cooling the exhaust to much???