Smoke Through Mortar

[JPR597]

I have a large stone fireplace that has a woodburning insert. The house was built in 1981 and I suspect the insert may be almost that old as well. We have only lived here 6 months and the fireplace was inspected by the local fireplace dealer before we began using it. I should note that the fireplace has tilted away from the house about 1" that was noted in the home inspectors report (seperate from the fireplace inspection). This was said to be normal for a house this old, but we were told to monitor it.

I have burned a fair amount of wood so far this season with no problem. Today, however, smoke began coming out at one point on each side of the fireplace where the inside and outside interior and exterior walls meets the fireplace.

Being new to this, I am hoping someone can tell me what the problem might be and way to fix it. My guess is that the liner may be leaking and that the smoke is seeping through a crack in the mortar?

Any info will be appreciated.

 

[Hogwildz]

I have a large stone fireplace that has a woodburning insert. The house was built in 1981 and I suspect the insert may be almost that old as well. We have only lived here 6 months and the fireplace was inspected by the local fireplace dealer before we began using it. I should note that the fireplace has tilted away from the house about 1" that was noted in the home inspectors report (seperate from the fireplace inspection). This was said to be normal for a house this old, but we were told to monitor it.

I have burned a fair amount of wood so far this season with no problem. Today, however, smoke began coming out at one point on each side of the fireplace where the inside and outside interior and exterior walls meets the fireplace.

Being new to this, I am hoping someone can tell me what the problem might be and way to fix it. My guess is that the liner may be leaking and that the smoke is seeping through a crack in the mortar?

Any info will be appreciated.

Is the liner a stainless steel inside the original? Or just the old clay liner?
I am guessing clay, which is also prolly cracked, or maybe even the damper/smoke shelf area, and letting smoke back into house. Might be time to sure up that chimney/fireplace and install a full s.s. liner inside the old one from insert to top. I would def have the fireplace & chimney movement checked out.

 

[JPR597]

I don't know what the present liner is made of, but will check. I did have the local fireplace dealer inspect the fireplace before we started using it and he said it was ok.

 

[Hogwildz]

Do you have any photos of the fireplace? where exactly is the smoke coming in at? near near fireplace opening? Higher up? along side? up further near ceiling?
If you have a photo u can post and an editing program, mark where you see the smoke. Def doesn't sound good. Especially if coming inside the house. Theres got to be a break or crack somehwere alowing the smoke to draft into the house. Is a block off plate installed?

 

[JPR597]

Here is a photo of the fireplace. There really isn't any photo I can show you where the smoke was coming out, just about 1 foot higher than the mantle on each side at the wall.

Don't know what a block plate is.

Checked with a flashlight and couldn't determine what the liner may be made of.

 

[budman]

Do you have any photos of the fireplace? where exactly is the smoke coming in at? near near fireplace opening? Higher up? along side? up further near ceiling?
If you have a photo u can post and an editing program, mark where you see the smoke. Def doesn't sound good. Especially if coming inside the house. Theres got to be a break or crack somehwere alowing the smoke to draft into the house. Is a block off plate installed?

Hey Hog i think he or she should pull the face plate and find out if there is a liner.
I don't think there is.

 

[JPR597]

Thank you Hogwildz and Budman.

When I look up in there with a flashlight through the square hole where the damper is, there is a small section of the insert continuing and them another square hole. After that, going up, it's much wider. If it has a liner, wouldn't it be smaller or the same size as the square?

 

[JPR597]

Inside looking up.

 

[JPR597]

Inside above damper hole.

 

[Highbeam]

Are those photos taken from behind the removed insert surround or did you stick your camera into the firebox for them? Regardless, you have no liner and apparently your insert was installed by simply shoving the insert into the fireplace and then depending on the insert's surround to provide the face seal. This isn't all that uncommon in the early 80s. Does it sound correct?

If so, then you can fill the space behind the surround with smoke and if the firebox/mantle joinery is compromised by the leaning chimney then smoke can find its way out of the fireplace and into the space behind the mantle, then out into the room.

Dangerous indeed since the visible smoke is an indicator of the invisible odorless, colorless gas of carbon monoxide leaking through the same crack.

I just lined my 1967 built masonry chimner all the way down to my woodburning insert. The damper as you show in the pic was very similar to mine and evidence of NO SS liner. The liner will make cleaning easier, draft stronger, and will prevent leakage from a cracked chimney.

 

[budman]

N2S you have to take the facing of the insert that go's around the fire box off.
than you will see the connection to a s/s liner if you have one.It should be connected from the stove
all the way up the chimney. :wow:

 

[budman]

Are those photos taken from behind the removed insert surround or did you stick your camera into the firebox for them? Regardless, you have no liner and apparently your insert was installed by simply shoving the insert into the fireplace and then depending on the insert's surround to provide the face seal. This isn't all that uncommon in the early 80s. Does it sound correct?

If so, then you can fill the space behind the surround with smoke and if the firebox/mantle joinery is compromised by the leaning chimney then smoke can find its way out of the fireplace and into the space behind the mantle, then out into the room.

Dangerous indeed since the visible smoke is an indicator of the invisible odorless, colorless gas of carbon monoxide leaking through the same crack.

I just lined my 1967 built masonry chimner all the way down to my woodburning insert. The damper as you show in the pic was very similar to mine and evidence of NO SS liner. The liner will make cleaning easier, draft stronger, and will prevent leakage from a cracked chimney.

HB yo u did it much more beta..

 

[JPR597]

Are those photos taken from behind the removed insert surround or did you stick your camera into the firebox for them? Regardless, you have no liner and apparently your insert was installed by simply shoving the insert into the fireplace and then depending on the insert's surround to provide the face seal. This isn't all that uncommon in the early 80s. Does it sound correct?

If so, then you can fill the space behind the surround with smoke and if the firebox/mantle joinery is compromised by the leaning chimney then smoke can find its way out of the fireplace and into the space behind the mantle, then out into the room.

Dangerous indeed since the visible smoke is an indicator of the invisible odorless, colorless gas of carbon monoxide leaking through the same crack.

I just lined my 1967 built masonry chimner all the way down to my woodburning insert. The damper as you show in the pic was very similar to mine and evidence of NO SS liner. The liner will make cleaning easier, draft stronger, and will prevent leakage from a cracked chimney.

Highbeam: Yes, I just stuck my small digital camera in the fireplace for the photos. The second photo was taken by sticking my hand up into the damper hole.

Thank you for the insight on this older fireplace. I think you guys are right and there is no liner.

As for the leaning chimney, it's not really leaning, just pulled away from the house about 1". The house inspector I paid, again, said just keep an eye in it and if it seperated more, have it secured to the house.

What kills me is that I had the local fireplace dealer check this fireplace out ($125.00). The guy they sent said there was no problem and that he thinks their store sold this insert to the past home owner years ago. I might note he said it would take three guys to remove it it's so heavy.

Anyway, thank you to you all and any further comments or helpful information is appreciated.

 

[JPR597]

N2S you have to take the facing of the insert that go's around the fire box off.
than you will see the connection to a s/s liner if you have one.It should be connected from the stove
all the way up the chimney. :wow:

Thanks Budman: Not sure how it comes off, but I will figure it out. Any tips?

 

[Hogwildz]

There is no s.s. liner on that. That rectangular damper says it all. Thats a direct connect, and may very well be your smoke problem. I still think if you get the surround off, thwn look up you will prolly find no damper block off plate. This is a plate that is sealed to all 4 walls of the old firebox somewhere between the lentel & just below the damper opening. with a hole cut out for the liner. In your case no liner accept the original liner. Should still have a block off plate, but we won't know that until you remove the surround and look up inside. Thats def a direct connect IMHO. What kind of insert is that? You have the same setup at my old fuego flame insert had.
And as previously said, if no block off plate, smoke could come in. But, if its coming a foot above the mantle sides, thats whats leading me to think of cracks up in that area.

The surround is prolly either somwhow screwed on, or may just have clips on the back side. My old insert had clips.
Would be real helpful if we knew what brand & model the insert is?

 

[elkimmeg]

You came here because you doubted the professional advice you received in the past. Nobody told you the root of your problem the problem exist at the base of the chimney or the footing
It has shifted and caused that chimney to separate from your home. there are three common forces of nature that causes the shifting One could be an earthquake I do not know your location or if you are in an searthquake zone. Another possibility id the ground settled under that footing causing it to sink and move This can be caused during an real heavy rain storm water leaches the less than compact soil and causes the shifting. if your grade around the chinmey allows water to pool ariound it it could be a combination or the grade plain allowed water to pool and leach the ground underneath. The footing its self could been prepared inadequately meaning it was placed on non compacted un stable filled soil it was not pinned to the foundation and re rod installed the third possibility is the footing was not installed deep enough below the frost level. frost got under it and lifted frost heave when the frost melts it cretes a viod where the chimney and footing settles again the footing could be inadequate and not deep enough and not pinned on less that compacted ground. Code also governs the use of wll ties to the structure these ties are used to prevent situation like separation. Yours would not the first chimney where the mason did not use them. Naturally you were informed by your home inspector. about the ranmifications of your chimney seoparation? If it separated that much there has to be a reason? did he tell you that water is probabvly getting behind there and rotting out framing menbers, all the way down to youe sill and rim joist? He did tell you moisture attracts termites?

Is the chimney safe to use leaking smoke out the side? A loud no. All the signs are there that your chimney is not structually sound not only that is you are seeing smoke escaping. Fire to combustiables is not far behind. Consider that smoke a warning shot, you are lucky it was just smoke. Let me clue another posibility say snow and water gets behind the chimney and the house wall and freezes it could pop that chimney and topple it.

What to do? A liner in a structually unsound chimney is useless without solving the current situation. Stop using that insert. The repair probably requires a total rebuild including a proper footing.

 

[Gooserider]

The house was built in 1981 and I suspect the insert may be almost that old as well. We have only lived here 6 months and the fireplace was inspected by the local fireplace dealer before we began using it. I should note that the fireplace has tilted away from the house about 1” that was noted in the home inspectors report (seperate from the fireplace inspection). This was said to be normal for a house this old, but we were told to monitor it.

This strikes me as AMAZING that a chimney separation should be regarded as "normal" in a house thats less than 30 years old.... If the house was built in 1891 I might buy it, but not in a fairly new construction. Sounds to me like someone is yanking you around!

At any rate, I would agree with Elk - you have MAJOR structural problems and a very unsafe install. I would strongly reccomend not using the insert until both are fixed, starting with the chimney structure.

Gooserider