Special Chimney for BIS Ultima??

[DrivenByDemons]

Hey all, my brother is building a house and he is planning on installing a BIS Ultima ZC unit. His dealer is telling him he can't use the 103HT chimney pipe and he must buy some special stuff. Does this sound right to you all? I looked up some of the standards the BIS manual refers to and they all point back to the same company which seems odd to me.

 

[thechimneysweep]

Actually, this is the norm for zero-clearance wood fireplaces. There are some exceptions, but zero clearance fireplace systems are usually tested and listed as a package, including fireplace and chimney: if your brother opted for a Heatilator fireplace, for example, he would find it is only listed for installation with Heatilator chimney. The BIS Ultima is made by a chimney manufacturer, Security Chimneys, and is only listed with that brand.

 

[DrivenByDemons]

Thanks Tom, We were confused because I just built a Home and installed a PE Spectrum using Supervent from Menards so we thought the dealer was scamming or something. His pipe is costing him 2-3X what I paid...

 

[DiscoInferno]

There are three options listed, one air-cooled (cheapest) and two insulated. All Security brand, of course. I don't know what is different (besides price) between the two insulated types, as I got the air cooled. But the dealer may be unnecessarily pushing the most expensive one of the three, so you might ask about that.

 

[seaken]

we thought the dealer was scamming or something.

What a shame.

I also "scam" my prospects by insisting that we only use the Security ASHT packed insulated chimney for that model. I tell them it's a bad idea to use the cheaper air-cooled system and inform them of the reasons why. Of course, they don't understand. They think I'm trying to sell them a higher cost chimney system so I can make a bigger profit. They go buy it elsewhere and install the air cooled pipe. Two or three years later they call my store (I also do repairs) for help with cold-air infiltration and/or corrosion. I check my records and notice I gave them an estimate. I ask them why they decided to buy somewhere else and that I could have saved them the trouble. I was too expensive.

I keep trying to educate the public on why using the air-cooled chimney in our cold weather environment is a bad idea. I keep trying to add enough value and being honest about why I won't sell them the cheap stuff. But, I still can't overcome the general idea coming from many consumers that I am a crook. It takes them two or three years to learn the lesson on their own. Can't trust those dealers. Just get what you can as cheap as you can and don't get scammed.

What a shame.

I'm leaning more and more toward an appointment only showroom and leaving general retail altogether. There are a lot of nice folks that I sell to. Just not enough of them. Most walk-ins assume first that I am too expensive and have ulterior motives. Maybe I "look" like a crook. I can't figure it out. Obviously, I haven't improved my technique enough to warrant immediate trust. But I have a good record. No scams. I obviously have not done a very good job of promoting our honesty to the general public. Why do general consumers assume I am lying to them? Are stove dealers really that bad? Are most of us really scam artists? Are most consumers really having such bad experiences everywhere so that they should come into my shop and think they will be scammed?

I hate to be stereotypical, but I think this is due to where we are located. And the similarities of our demographic to many who post on the internet about "scams" is undeniable. Seems most who are in this area of the country believe all business people are crooks until proven otherwise. I've been here over 20 years and I still haven't adjusted. Then again, I shop too. I've ran into a few bad business people, but most are not crooks or scam artists. Many are grumpy, but wouldn't you be too if all your prospects and customers accused you of theft before even giving them a chance?

Couldn't you just assume that the stove dealer knows his products and is not trying to scam you? Won't you be able to listen and learn and then make up your mind? Why assume we're scamming you? Listen, most of us try very hard to educate our prospects because we know that all prospects are different. Some want things that others don't. There's always a reason why the information, or products, your cousin got is different from what you got. Stop and listen. Learn. You just may get the fireplace you wanted instead of settling for the cheapest price.

 

[DiscoInferno]

I also "scam" my prospects by insisting that we only use the Security ASHT packed insulated chimney for that model. I tell them it's a bad idea to use the cheaper air-cooled system and inform them of the reasons why. Of course, they don't understand. They think I'm trying to sell them a higher cost chimney system so I can make a bigger profit. They go buy it elsewhere and install the air cooled pipe. Two or three years later they call my store (I also do repairs) for help with cold-air infiltration and/or corrosion. I check my records and notice I gave them an estimate. I ask them why they decided to buy somewhere else and that I could have saved them the trouble. I was too expensive.

Cold-air infiltration, poor draft, increased creosote; these arguments against air-cooled I understand. But what's going to corrode faster on an air-cooled chimney?

 

[seaken]

Cold-air infiltration, poor draft, increased creosote; these arguments against air-cooled I understand. But what's going to corrode faster on an air-cooled chimney?

Increased chances for corrosion are focused primarily on two areas. First, the outer pipes used in air-cooled chimneys are not made of stainless steel - only the interior pipe is stainless steel. These out pipes are galvalume or galvenized steel and they are more susceptible to corrosion, especially in the moist environments of the chases that are often built incorrectly. Second, moisture from condesation drips on the top of the fireplace, which is also made up only of galvenized sheet metal. Over time, this moisture leads to rust and corrosion overcoming the thin metal sheets. Once the metal sheets are compromised, the inner steel boxes begin to be attacked by the moisture and then the whole system can be compromised.

To be clear, it is not all the fault of the pipe chosen. However, packed insulated chimney gives the builder a head start and the chances for corrosion are reduced. Cold air infiltration is also less of an issue with the packed chimney systems since the systems tend to be static. It makes more sense to reduce the chances for potential future problems bu spending a little more money up front. It's very expensive to fix these fireplaces years later.

Sean