SS Insulated Liner & Clay Tiles...Double Protection??

[jscs.moore]

Hey Guys...when I had my Hampton HI300 installed in September and (based on feedback from this site) I insisted on a SS insulated liner. The dealer said it wasn't necessary, but I insisted. Dealer then said they needed to use a 5.5" liner with pour in insulation. I, again, did my research and got feedback from all of you and insisted on a wrap kit. Dealer said wouldn't fit so we agreed on a 6" Ovalized, SS Pre-insulated liner (Olympia). I have a 30' chimney with terracotta liner...so they were able to fit the new SS liner into the existing terracotta liner without breaking them out. So here is my question...if I now have an insulated SS liner inserted into a clay lined chimney...and assuming there is no damage to the existing clay tiles...shouldn't this give me extra protection from chimney fires, etc. Sorry if this a dumb question, but you would think this would be double the protection??

 

[warbonnet]

I have a unisulated SS liner inside terracota. Of course the whole thing has block around it in attic, and block and brick where exposed in the house and stone above the roof line. I can burn 24/7 go in attic and put my hand on the block and it isnt even warm to the touch. My house framing is right against the block. There are those here that would tell me I need to insulate or I risk burning my house down. I say 100% Bunk. Breaking out a good flue to have the ability to add a thin layer of insulation is ridiculous. Some will tell you the risk is high for creosote if you dont insulate. Dont agree with that either if you burn good wood. If you burn poor wood the risk is there with best insulated liner in the world. Lots of good info here but also a lot of fear mongers. If your terracota is sound and the structure around it you'll be fine.

 

[jscs.moore]

I have a unisulated SS liner inside terracota. Of course the whole thing has block around it in attic, and block and brick where exposed in the house and stone above the roof line. I can burn 24/7 go in attic and put my hand on the block and it isnt even warm to the touch. My house framing is right against the block. There are those here that would tell me I need to insulate or I risk burning my house down. I say 100% Bunk. Breaking out a good flue to have the ability to add a thin layer of insulation is ridiculous. Some will tell you the risk is high for creosote if you dont insulate. Dont agree with that either if you burn good wood. If you burn poor wood the risk is there with best insulated liner in the world. Lots of good info here but also a lot of fear mongers. If your terracota is sound and the structure around it you'll be fine.

Okay...that is a different perspective than most of the posts you read here. Maybe the dealer also thought an insulated liner wasn't necessary for this very reason. However, I have an exterior chimney and was told (on this site) that the insert will absolutely perform better with a "insulated" SS liner and that is why I insisted on one.
It is interesting though...because on the day on the install, the two techs were clearly not happy about wrestling a 35ft SS pre-insulated liner up on the roof and down the chimney...one of them said to me "you really don't need an insulated liner...you would have been fine with just an uninsulated liner?? I won't even get into (again) how I was dismissed regarding a block off plate...it was like I was asking two brain surgeons to use a screw driver to open a skull

 

[bholler]

I have a unisulated SS liner inside terracota. Of course the whole thing has block around it in attic, and block and brick where exposed in the house and stone above the roof line. I can burn 24/7 go in attic and put my hand on the block and it isnt even warm to the touch. My house framing is right against the block. There are those here that would tell me I need to insulate or I risk burning my house down. I say 100% Bunk. Breaking out a good flue to have the ability to add a thin layer of insulation is ridiculous. Some will tell you the risk is high for creosote if you dont insulate. Dont agree with that either if you burn good wood. If you burn poor wood the risk is there with best insulated liner in the world. Lots of good info here but also a lot of fear mongers. If your terracota is sound and the structure around it you'll be fine.

So in other words all of the research testing and experience of fires caused by situations just like yours make no difference at all because of the fact that you don't think it will be an issue. The danger is not from normal burning it is from a chimney fire in which the temps cam be amplified atleast 10 times. And besides you need it insulated to maintain the ul listing and almost always to meet code.

It is interesting though...because on the day on the install, the two techs were clearly not happy about wrestling a 35ft SS pre-insulated liner up on the roof and down the chimney...one of them said to me "you really don't need an insulated liner...you would have been fine with just an uninsulated liner??

That is because they were lazy and either dont know or care about the requiremnets and benifits of insulation

 

[jeffsk7]

I put a non insulated liner down my clay lined chimney. Its surrounded by brick on all sides and is on outside wall of house. I shoved insulation down the top. I dont understand why some say this is not adequate. It drafts great.

 

[bholler]

I put a non insulated liner down my clay lined chimney. Its surrounded by brick on all sides and is on outside wall of house. I shoved insulation down the top. I dont understand why some say this is not adequate. It drafts great.

unless you have the required clearance to combustibles (which most do not) it does not meet code and can potentially cause a structure fire. As far as performance yes it can work fine the way you have it but it works better fully insulated

 

[jeffsk7]

I dont see how this is true. For 30 years smoke went up the clay tiles and there was never much worry about clearances to combustables. I add stainless liner which makes it safer, but need more clearance. It makes no sense. Id say it is a way for stove shops to get more money out of people. There has to be some common sense to these things. If your clay liner is in good shape i dont see the problem.

 

[bholler]

dont see how this is true. For 30 years smoke went up the clay tiles and there was never much worry about clearances to combustables. I add stainless liner which makes it safer, but need more clearance. It makes no sense. Id say it is a way for stove shops to get more money out of people. There has to be some common sense to these things. If your clay liner is in good shape i dont see the problem.

No you were supposed to have that clearance before you put in the liner as well. And the recomendation for that clearance predates the development of insulated liners. Those products where developed to address a problem. The chances of a problem occurring in your situation are pretty small but there is potential there. And by the way most stove shops i have seen dont do insulation because it takes to long and is a pita. You can make more money dropping a few bare liners in a day than you can doing it right. But I am fine with doing it right and making a little less. Clay liners in good shape contain flue gasses but do very little to stop heat transfer which is the problem we are talking about here.

 

[mellow]

They don't have to put seatbelts and airbags in cars, but they do for protection, "just in case".

Same for an insulated liner, unless you built that chimney and KNOW it has the clearance to combustibles, you will always have that MAYBE, and the insulation is for "just in case" you have several chimney fires. Will it happen, probably not, but being proactive is a better than dialing 911 and being reactive to the side of your house framing catching on fire.

 

[jeffsk7]

Yes, i guess that makes sense. Im pretty sure mine was done right 30 years ago. I just cant see how a clay lined chimmney surrounded by brick with a non insulated liner wouldn't be adequate insulation. My fear would be i bust out my clay liner insulate and my stove operates exactly the same. I think a lot of people have this worry.

 

[mellow]

https://www.ctsweep.com/blog/top-sweep-stories/two-little-known-causes-of-house-fires/

One word, Pyrolysis.

 

[bholler]

Im pretty sure mine was done right 30 years ago.

Do you have the require 1" external or 2" internal of space between the outside of the masonry and any combustible material the entire length of the chimney? If not it was not built right 30 years ago And if those clay liners were used for 30 years i would bet they are not in the greatest of shape either their projected life with out a chimney fire is 30 years or generally one chimney fire

 

[mellow]

My fear would be i bust out my clay liner insulate and my stove operates exactly the same.

I had to insulate mine due to me being a bonehead years ago and trying to get away with a non-insulated liner in an external chimney, I had smoke pouring out during reload. But anyway, you might not see any performance gain, but you will see less buildup in the liner and have the peace of mind it is done right, not to mention the UL rating for insurance.

 

[jeffsk7]

Do you have the require 1" external or 2" internal of space between the outside of the masonry and any combustible material the entire length of the chimney?

Yes, i have about 4 inches all the way around. Even if the clay tiles were in bad shape which they are not and there has never been a chimney fire, the brick would be enough for clearance purposes. To get back on point i dont see how a clay liner with an un insulated stainless liner is not insulated enough. Ive never had creoste issues. And if all your clearnces are met i dont see the point of paying the extra cost of breaking out liners just to fit insulatuon around a stainless flex liner.

 

[bholler]

Yes, i have about 4 inches all the way around.

You have 4" of space between the outside of the masonry structure of the chimney to any combustible material? If so then yes you are correct that you don't need insulation to meet code.

the brick would be enough for clearance purposes.

No brick is not the required air space. Brick transfers heat you need airs space beyond that.

And if all your clearnces are met i dont see the point of paying the extra cost of breaking out liners just to fit insulatuon around a stainless flex liner.

For safety if all clearances are met you are correct there is no reason to do it. But they do work better with insulation. But they can work fine without. I do not install uninsulated liners regardless but they can work fine and be safe in the right situation. But regardless of that they do not comply with the ul listing for solid fuel with out that insulation so i cannot and will not install them that way

 

[jeffsk7]

Right, but for 30 years me and many others have burnt in clay lined brick chimmneys and nothing ever went wrong. Its common snese. I understand the need for safety, but i think there is more behind it than that. And its about money most of the time.

 

[bholler]

Right, but for 30 years me and many others have burnt in clay lined brick chimmneys and nothing ever went wrong. Its common snese. I understand the need for safety, but i think there is more behind it than that. And its about money most of the time.

Yes many burnt with no issues but many also had fires. Like i said the chances of something happening is slim but it can happen. I am sorry but common sense tells me that if there is a proven potential fire hazard then you should do what you can to reduce that risk. For me it is not about the extra money like i said i could make more money dropping more bare liners in less time but i am not willing to cut corners. If you want to ignore that risk that is up to you but i am not willing to ignore the risk to my customers or the people who come here looking for advice.

 

[bholler]

People also have burnt slammers for years with no problems or with bare pipe as chimneys ect that does not make it safe or right

 

[jeffsk7]

Yes many burnt with no issues but many also had fires. Like i said the chances of something happening is slim but it can happen. I am sorry but common sense tells me that if there is a proven potential fire hazard then you should do what you can to reduce that risk. For me it is not about the extra money like i said i could make more money dropping more bare liners in less time but i am not willing to cut corners. If you want to ignore that risk that is up to you but i am not willing to ignore the risk to my customers or the people who come here looking for advice.

I 100% agree. As a professional stove guy you have to follow the codes and laws. No way around that. I'm just saying the way some if these codes are made is questionable. They seem to benifit stove shops. I find it hard to believe the people behind making these rules are not tied to the industry. And i am in no way saying this is you or anyone on this forum. But some of these codes are ridiculous. Example. Insulate a stainless flex liner that has at the least 4 inches of clay liner and brick around the entire thing. That doesnt make much sense.

 

[bholler]

Insulate a stainless flex liner with at the least 4 inches of clay liner and brick around the entire thing.

That has been tested and proven again and again to be a fire risk. Masonry will conduct heat through it to the adjacent combustibles. And the only part of the industry that makes more money by insulating liners is the liner manufacturers and even that is debatable when you factor in the cost of testing and the reduced number of liners sold due to the increased cost of insulating. If you choose to ignore the clear data proving it is a fire risk that is up to you but it is real and i am done debating this with you.

 

[jeffsk7]

There is risk to everything. And more people have burnt without liners for over 30 years and had not one problem. Putting a liner in even if uninsulated makes it even safer. Of course no stove shop will admit this. Because you would be out of lots of work. Show me the facts of how many uninsulated liners have burnt houses down verse insulated. Or for that matter just using clay lined chimney. I bet almost all have to do with poor burning practices and wet wood and not cleaning flue.

 

[bholler]

There is risk to everything. And more people have burnt without liners for over 30 years and had not one problem. Putting a liner in even if uninsulated makes it even safer. Of course no stove shop will admit this. Because you would be out of lots of work. Show me the facts of how many uninsulated liners have burnt houses down verse insulated. Or for that matter just using clay lined chimney. I bet almost all have to do with poor burning practices and wet wood and not cleaning flue.

This is not worth my time if you will not listen to reason.

 

[BrotherBart]

Well, this one has fallen apart pretty fast.

 

[begreen]

There is risk to everything. And more people have burnt without liners for over 30 years and had not one problem. Putting a liner in even if uninsulated makes it even safer. Of course no stove shop will admit this. Because you would be out of lots of work. Show me the facts of how many uninsulated liners have burnt houses down verse insulated. Or for that matter just using clay lined chimney. I bet almost all have to do with poor burning practices and wet wood and not cleaning flue.

I would bet that the majority of issues with clay liners are with poor workmanship, cutting corners, ignoring code, chimney fire damage and age. That covers a whole lot of installations, this one included that failed dramatically and almost lethally after 34 yrs..