That was my thought exactly. My boiler would simply boil over out the vent until the low water cutoff shut everything down. But I didn't want that to even possibly happen.
Starting my "storage and replumb" project
- Thread starter warno
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Easy Livin’ 3000
Minister of Fire
Wow. This is really impressive, from the planning to the execution. Even my pipe dreams fall far short of the work that you are doing. There are all kinds of artistry in the world, this more than qualifies. And, not to mention, you have a 4 year old and a pregnant wife (and a day job!). Well done and keep the posts coming.
Thank you for all the compliments everyone.
I tend to set my mind to things then make them happen one way or the other. I've been getting up at 3 am to help my wife with her meds anyway so I just start my day at that time. Put in a few hours before work for about 4-5 days a week. Then if my boy is napping when I get off work, I work on the project until he wakes up. It gets tiring but ol' fart winter isn't waiting for me to get done. It's been getting into the low 40s at night here lately and I still need to make sure this all work together.
I tend to set my mind to things then make them happen one way or the other. I've been getting up at 3 am to help my wife with her meds anyway so I just start my day at that time. Put in a few hours before work for about 4-5 days a week. Then if my boy is napping when I get off work, I work on the project until he wakes up. It gets tiring but ol' fart winter isn't waiting for me to get done. It's been getting into the low 40s at night here lately and I still need to make sure this all work together.
I wrestled the probably 60 pound or better dump coil into the rafters today, that was a good time. But it's all hooked up and ready to test the whole loop for leak in the morning. With any luck I won't have any or at least easy to fix ones. And then I'm going to get it filled up. And maybe light a small fire to start breaking in my new refractory.
Here's some pics
And all hooked up
I also ran out to work this morning to pick up my new wood shed. It was a shipping crate that a piece of our new laser cutter came in. I cut some length off of it so it measures about 11.5' X 6' X 7'.
Some assembly required...
Here's some pics
And all hooked up
I also ran out to work this morning to pick up my new wood shed. It was a shipping crate that a piece of our new laser cutter came in. I cut some length off of it so it measures about 11.5' X 6' X 7'.
Some assembly required...
This morning I came out to leak check. And button up a few other things. I had some leaking unions, junk China copper ones, that I think I got sealed up now. Note to self, only buy gasketed unions from now on. I also had a leaking pex crimp joint, which is a first me me. I checked it with the go/no go and it was good but I suppose things happen. I got it sealed up.
While doing my leak checks the weather started to turn on me. So I made a garbage bag tent to keep working.
I also finished up a few wire terminations and I think I got my flue temp controller programmed.
The controller on bottom left is my flue temp and the A419 is in line with my contactor to control my fan if the boiler is to hot, just as another safety. The blue box at the bottom is a timer relay in line with the flue temp, it turns on my contactor until the flue temp reaches setpoint temp then the timer shuts off and the flue temp controller holds the contactor closed until the end of the burn cycle when the flue temp comes back down then everything shuts off until I hit the "go" button again.
I also have a float switch in the water jacket that tells if water level is good or not. So in the unlikely event of a boiler over it will shut down the entire system before my pump starts sucking air. It runs through this manual/auto switch so if it malfunctions I can bypass it and still operate.
I pulled all the wires and made all the terminations but I can't take all the credit for the wiring. I had someone help by doing my diagram and if that someone happens to read this thread someday, huge HUGE thank you to them!
I'm going to be getting my tanks filled today, hopefully. I'm getting my buddy's well water that runs through his Softener then pumping it into my tanks. I have to make 3 trips to his house to get enough water to fill them up.
While doing my leak checks the weather started to turn on me. So I made a garbage bag tent to keep working.
I also finished up a few wire terminations and I think I got my flue temp controller programmed.
The controller on bottom left is my flue temp and the A419 is in line with my contactor to control my fan if the boiler is to hot, just as another safety. The blue box at the bottom is a timer relay in line with the flue temp, it turns on my contactor until the flue temp reaches setpoint temp then the timer shuts off and the flue temp controller holds the contactor closed until the end of the burn cycle when the flue temp comes back down then everything shuts off until I hit the "go" button again.
I also have a float switch in the water jacket that tells if water level is good or not. So in the unlikely event of a boiler over it will shut down the entire system before my pump starts sucking air. It runs through this manual/auto switch so if it malfunctions I can bypass it and still operate.
I pulled all the wires and made all the terminations but I can't take all the credit for the wiring. I had someone help by doing my diagram and if that someone happens to read this thread someday, huge HUGE thank you to them!
I'm going to be getting my tanks filled today, hopefully. I'm getting my buddy's well water that runs through his Softener then pumping it into my tanks. I have to make 3 trips to his house to get enough water to fill them up.
Ya I had the same problem with all my copper and black iron unions.. used pipe thread compound on the surfaces . No leaks after that.
brenndatomu
Minister of Fire
I think I recognize that temp controller, have the same one on my Tundra furnace...I think you are gonna be very impressed with this setup you have now...if not, I am!
So I finished topping off my tanks and started bleeding the loops. I can't seem to get all the air out of my loops that are in the rafters of the garage. I had the garden hose on the lowest point and the bleeder hose on the highest point. I can't seem to get it to get all the air out. I would close the bleeder then rapidly open it to get a pulse of water but it doesn't do the trick. I got a lot out to where the circulator sounds quiet but the water coils still make noise. Should I put bleeders on my coils? Or is there another way?
Note my highest point is about 1 foot lower then the coils in my rafters. And I'm using webstone propals to do the purging.
Note my highest point is about 1 foot lower then the coils in my rafters. And I'm using webstone propals to do the purging.
cold water will be harder to purge air, when the water is hot it works better. have you fired it up yet? Once hot let it circulate on the highest speed of the circ, within a few hrs it will probably work its self out. also try bleeding about 1/2 gallon, as sometimes the air is in the piping and not at the top of the loop
I haven't fired it yet. I'm going to do a couple small fires to cure out my fresh refractory over the next few days then this weekend I'm going to pour the coals to it, that way I can really watch what's going on.
I'll try to run the circ on high once hot. I'll report back with my findings.
What should my starting pressure be? Right now I'm at zero but I can put some pressure in it before starting.
I also noticed this auto bleeder was allowing air to be pulled back into the system.
I closed the valve and the circ went quiet all most instantly.
I'll try to run the circ on high once hot. I'll report back with my findings.
What should my starting pressure be? Right now I'm at zero but I can put some pressure in it before starting.
I also noticed this auto bleeder was allowing air to be pulled back into the system.
I closed the valve and the circ went quiet all most instantly.
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Buzz Saw
Minister of Fire
What's the thing on top of the air scoop? Is it required for an air scoop to work properly?
I'm working on hooking up my system right now and trying to get all the odds and ends together.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
I put an auto bleeder on top of my air scoop.
I would recommend making a thread asking for help with your specific system. Then provide a drawing of your system and parts with a description of what you plan to do with it. These guys will help out here, this is a great site.
I would recommend making a thread asking for help with your specific system. Then provide a drawing of your system and parts with a description of what you plan to do with it. These guys will help out here, this is a great site.
maple1
Minister of Fire
What should my starting pressure be? Right now I'm at zero but I can put some pressure in it before starting.
You mean on the pressurized part of your system? That includes the storage tanks?
With a new startup like this, that maybe involved a bit of 'seat of the pants' planning - that's a touchy one. You won't (or at least I didn't) get a good handle on how my expansion was going to handle the heat rise, until you actually get the heat rising. And it depends a lot on where you're measuring the pressure, and where your circs are. For example, right now on your cold system, and if it was 10' high, you could read zero at the top, and 4psi at the bottom. If your circ is at the bottom, that might be OK to start with, but if it's say half way up, you might want to bump it up a couple few pounds first (circs need some inlet pressure). The main thing is to watch pressure carefully as you heat things up so you can let some out if it starts building too much. More pressure will also make bleeding air easier - or it should at least. I would maybe try starting at 8 or so on the bottom, see what happens (not knowing what height you're working with - or where your guage or circs are).
You mean on the pressurized part of your system? That includes the storage tanks?
With a new startup like this, that maybe involved a bit of 'seat of the pants' planning - that's a touchy one. You won't (or at least I didn't) get a good handle on how my expansion was going to handle the heat rise, until you actually get the heat rising. And it depends a lot on where you're measuring the pressure, and where your circs are. For example, right now on your cold system, and if it was 10' high, you could read zero at the top, and 4psi at the bottom. If your circ is at the bottom, that might be OK to start with, but if it's say half way up, you might want to bump it up a couple few pounds first (circs need some inlet pressure). The main thing is to watch pressure carefully as you heat things up so you can let some out if it starts building too much. More pressure will also make bleeding air easier - or it should at least. I would maybe try starting at 8 or so on the bottom, see what happens (not knowing what height you're working with - or where your guage or circs are).
My only 2 gauges in the tanks are at the very bottom of the bottom tank and about half way up the top tank. The tank pile is almost 8 feet tall. The circ for my plate heat hx is mounted down low and my circ for the garage hx is about 12" higher then the middle of the top tank.
Yes only worried about pressure on the tank side because my boiler is open system.
Yes only worried about pressure on the tank side because my boiler is open system.
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Hello Warno,
You have to be worried about the Pressure and Vacuum created by your system as it is designed for the entire system.
Your circulators are pushing water not pumping it. Normal pressures are anywhere between 12 -25 PSI when hot-the lower the better of course.
Did you install an open expansion tank in the high point of the system to maintain a proper back pressure and allow excess water to escape through a vent line in the roof?
You should have a vacuum gauge installed in the suction side of the circulator and a pressure gauge on the pressure side of the circulator to keep an eye on the circulator condition.
You should also have a pressure gauge on the return line to the boiler sump as well.
You need to know what the Delta T and Delta P pressures and temperatures are at all times in your system to manage it.
The automatic air vent MUST MUST MUST remain open at all times to release any trapped air in the system keepingthem shut off only pushes air bubbles through the system and create an airlock condition on the high side preventing heat transfer to your home and the dump zone-it takes very little air to lock up a system-trust me Iknow this from having hot water baseboard heat(which I hate) for 38 years.
Your second air scoop is gong to need a second automatic air vent as well for the same reasons.
When you hear air whistling out of the Shraeder valve in the air vent you know its working so you need to open it back up.
I would like you to run the system cold with no heat for a day or two to help you vent any trapped air and purge any trapped air by opening the bleeders if you do not have a power purge boiler drain in any of the heating loops.
If I have asked you this before please humor again, do you have a bleeder/boiler drain on each heating circuit?
If you do this you can vent each heating loop of air when the system is cold by Power Purging the heating loop pushing the air out of it and then you can begin heating.
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Yes I'm running webstone propals at each end of each loop.
The auto vent was letting air draw back into my line which is why I shut the valve above it.
What are you talking about excess water escaping through a vent in my roof? I'm confused by that question.
EDIT: I just figured out why my pump is drawing air back in. In my hasty attempt at getting done, I put my air scoop on the suction side of the pump not the pressie side like it should be. I guess I'll be changing that tonight.
The auto vent was letting air draw back into my line which is why I shut the valve above it.
What are you talking about excess water escaping through a vent in my roof? I'm confused by that question.
EDIT: I just figured out why my pump is drawing air back in. In my hasty attempt at getting done, I put my air scoop on the suction side of the pump not the pressie side like it should be. I guess I'll be changing that tonight.
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I am glad you found the problem quickly.
I probably asked you this before but Is your steel expansion tank in the attic?
Vertical steel expansion tanks are typically mounted in a vertical piping arrangement with an upside down U that is piped into the tank with a short nipple using two elbows, two short nipples and a Tee between the short nipples that is connected to the tank with another short nipple.
There is one riser pipe and one return pipe connected to the upside down U piping. The U piping arrangement is used to allow warm water to keep moving to prevent water from freezing in the vertical tank in the attic.
The overflow pipe is extended from the top of the tank through the roof and then an elbow short nipple and second elbow with a screen in it which lets the excess water out of the tank and it falls on the roof to drain away.
I do have some of my expansion in the attic. I have half in the bubble at the top of my storage tank the other half in the rafters of the garage. I plan to allow my bubble in the top of the tank to get taken up then start draining any remaining expansion on the first heating cycle. The tanks in the rafters are there to provide emergency expansion of the tanks take on more heat then intended.
I'm confused all about the vent line. This is a closed system on my tank side. Why would I run a vent on a closed system?
I'm confused all about the vent line. This is a closed system on my tank side. Why would I run a vent on a closed system?
I got things switched around this afternoon after work. It's pressure testing right now. I'll refill with water tomorrow and try again. Also need to redo my pump wiring as you can see its pretty slack now after the move.
I did light a small fire in the boiler to start curing the refractory and warm things up just alittle. I used about 5-6 2x4s split up and just that got me to almost 100 degrees in the water jacket.
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Sorry, I forgot that your system is sealed and the boiler is open.
If you have an air bubble in the the expasnion tanks you do not want to reduce them and increase the
amount of water in the tanks as the air volume in the tank is a cushion to absorb the
micro air bubbles and release cooler water into the system.
Leave the air volume alone as you need 1/3 of the volume of the expansion tank for air to compress
as the water heats up and expands in volume.
My plan was to let the water expand up into the rafters then adjust my psi from there. I was thinking around 12 was what I wanted to run but maple1 got me thinking about the difference in pressure from top to bottom. I was just out checking on the air test and I looked at the difference in the tank pressure from top to bottom. To my amazement, the gauges were different by a few psi. So I suppose I'll start around 8 psi after things heat up and go from there.
maple1
Minister of Fire
I had forgotten about your air-bubble-in-tank expansion. Plus don't know or can't remember how big your other expansion is.
I would likely start cold with roughly about 10% air volume vs. water - then see how it reacts to heating. Start at say 4-6 cold at the circ. But there are kind of two 'colds' - one right now with no heat at all, and the other you would see during the heating season, when storage is depleted & you start heating it again. Guessing cold now is maybe 60-70°, and the bottom out point during the season might be 100-120°. Or maybe even more. So that's a 50°+/- temp rise from now, to your 'winter cold' point. So I would maybe aim for the 8-10 psi, at your winter cold point. Which means maybe you could start with zero cold now (or likely a bit more) & see how much it gets to at 100-120 or so. Then readjust pressure. Then if psi gets too high when fully heated or when heading for there, let some water out. Don't let any air out until you know that pressure won't be too high when fully heated. If you get fully heated without letting anything out and pressures are still good (like less than 15-18), you could then maybe let some air out & put some water in to increase water/storage volume. After getting everything purged, that is. Purging should go better when everything is hot & fully pressurized.
First go round will be a watch & balance routine.
I would likely start cold with roughly about 10% air volume vs. water - then see how it reacts to heating. Start at say 4-6 cold at the circ. But there are kind of two 'colds' - one right now with no heat at all, and the other you would see during the heating season, when storage is depleted & you start heating it again. Guessing cold now is maybe 60-70°, and the bottom out point during the season might be 100-120°. Or maybe even more. So that's a 50°+/- temp rise from now, to your 'winter cold' point. So I would maybe aim for the 8-10 psi, at your winter cold point. Which means maybe you could start with zero cold now (or likely a bit more) & see how much it gets to at 100-120 or so. Then readjust pressure. Then if psi gets too high when fully heated or when heading for there, let some water out. Don't let any air out until you know that pressure won't be too high when fully heated. If you get fully heated without letting anything out and pressures are still good (like less than 15-18), you could then maybe let some air out & put some water in to increase water/storage volume. After getting everything purged, that is. Purging should go better when everything is hot & fully pressurized.
First go round will be a watch & balance routine.
Ok. So I'll start with just alittle pressure (say 3 psi, I think is what pump pressure recommends) and start heating things up and just watch pressure gauges to adjust when needed. I'm pretty anxious to see this thing in action I'm hoping Friday after work I can start heating my storage tank to start the learning process.
I need to do my pretreatment then drain and refill hopefully Saturday I'll be all filled back up and ready to "rock and roll" I think we call it?
And maple, I have 50 gallons of expansion in the rafters and the rest is in the top of the storage tank.
I need to do my pretreatment then drain and refill hopefully Saturday I'll be all filled back up and ready to "rock and roll" I think we call it?
And maple, I have 50 gallons of expansion in the rafters and the rest is in the top of the storage tank.
I burned another small fire tonight for another break in in my refractory. So tomorrow after work in going to let er have it. Running like it should. I believe all my electronics are working properly but I still need to check 2 of my safeties. I'll do that tomorrow as well. Hoping to treat tomorrow night and drain early Saturday morning and refill and refire Saturday around midday.
I refilled my garage loop and tested the air situation again. It seems to be alot better. I'll double check after things get warmed up.
I refilled my garage loop and tested the air situation again. It seems to be alot better. I'll double check after things get warmed up.
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