stinkin wet wood and chimney fires!

[castlegates]

Less than a month ago I got a DS machines wood stove (double burn). So I bought a cord of "seasoned wood" red oak, I believe. Anyways, the outside looked to be seasoned from the split pieces, but it felt a little heavy. After just a week of burning, I hear that freight train noise! I closed down the pipe until it stopped, thinking "OK that was a mighty draw". It happened again about a week later. I looked inside the stove to see crystals of creosote, went and got some near rotten DRY wood, stacked it in there and the glass cleared right up and creosote crystals all disappeared. Looking outside the triple walled chimney I just installed, I caught the end of the fire; looked like a fire breathing dragon! I felt the pipe and it felt cool throughout, despite the 10 second chimney fire. Looking around, I see dried creosote sap junk all over the seams at the U outside. I had no idea just a couple weeks would do it. I know the chimney runs cool because of the double burning, which leads me to believe I should heat it up once every day or so to dry the chimney out and get rid of some of the creosote (I'm certian some piles up, even with seasoned wood).

THat completely surprised me! A month ago, I had nothing, now I've got a brand new system in there and already two fires up the stack! Luckily it didn't get hot; it's rated for coal burning and I was burning this red oak.

THat got me to thinking; when water only evaporates from the wood, is it just that the creosote-origin stuff in the wood is dry and burns before going up the stack with the moisture?

So, for now, I've got lines of wood a few feet from the stove making sure it's warm and dry before getting it in there. Luckily it's efficient, so about 4 pieces will do me for 8-10 hours.

Has this happened to anyone else? I certianly wasn't planning on anything like this! I'm grateful the stack didn't even get warm (even the single walled pipe didn't heat up; it was the whoosh freight train sound that I recognized that surprised me only a couple weeks in of burning.

Other than that, I'm happy to report, that stove works really well! My house is 78 degrees inside as I flip the middle finger to my $450 electric bills (PA electricity with baseboard heat; **** and pillage)!

You can see the smoke recirculating out of the pipe holes on the top creating a blow torch effect inside the stove. I've never seen smoke burn before, but they said that's what it would do! THe top of the stack blows hardly any smoke; I just wish the stack got at least warm on occasion; this tells me I really need to look out (or clean it out once a week, but I haven't shut it down all month).

I'd like to speed up drying; I wonder how long it would take to dry wood stacked in the basement near (not too near) the stove? At 90 degrees low humidity, how many months do you think it would take to dry a 6 month old split piece of wood? I was floored this "dry" cord I bought wasn't even close to dry! I thought it was just dense and heavy. I'm not sure what the oak is mixed with; some noxious smelling rough bark wood.

I am going to get a 3' longer extension for when that gets burning next time the smell won't even come near the house (two nights the smoke was dropping around the windows stinking us to high heaven)!

 

[bogydave]

Got this online:
Alaska forestry Dept, handout

"Burn The Wood Gases
Most of the moisture content remaining in seasoned firewood consists of wood resins. As wood
heats up in the fire chamber, these resins emit combustible gases which, when ignited in the
secondary burn chamber, can account for as much as half the heat output of the fire. When
green or wet firewood is burned, the extra water content turns to steam and mixes with the wood
gases, preventing them from igniting and releasing their heat value. When the draft control is set
too low and the fire smolders, the wood gases won't ignite in the resulting oxygen-starved
environment, even if the firewood is properly seasoned. When the wood gases aren't burned in
the secondary burn chamber, they escape up the chimney, taking their heat value with them and
creating heavy creosote formation."


Dry wood is "Key" & burns so much better & cleaner. With catalytic stove, dry wood is a must, the drier the better.
I started seasoning my wood 2 years & have notice a big difference, longer burn times, more heat from the stove, cleaner, etc etc. All good things.

Sounds like yo need to clean your chimney with a good brushing.
Oak takes 2 or 3 yrs to dry good enough to burn in some locations, the other hardwoods dry in about 1 year Cut Split & Stacked (CSS) off the ground with good air circulation.
Sun & air circulation will speed the drying up some but 1 year for most woods. Most here try to have next years wood in now so it's ready for next burn season.

Glad you caught the chimney fire before it caused serious damage. Still you should brush & inspect the chimney to be sure all is OK. Inspect monthly
Good luck.

 

[woodmiser]

Some people seem to get away with it. I have a friend up the street that burns everything. He says if it burns, it goes in. He doesn't know anything about moisture content. He has hardly any buildup problems.

 

[DexterDay]

If its still smoking a little out the stack, then its still not burning all the "smoke" (gases).

Do you have a thermometer or a probe in your flue?

2 fires in that amount of time is a lot in my opinion. I would think that wood is very wet.

Glad your happy with the stove and that its doing its job. But I would definitely clean it at least bi-weekly. Cleaned mine this weekend and got about a half cup of dark brown matter and at the top 3' of the chimney (and cap) had a thin coat of black creosote. Looked like little thin shiny shavings (specs). My wood isnt the best. I am burning Silver Maple and Pine C/S/S in single rows from April. (Most is below 20%). Saving the Ash, Cherry, and Elm for later in the year. As it will only have about 6-8 months also. It should all be about 20% . Most split fairly small (5x5x18).

Keep an eye on the chimney. It may be multi fuel rated. But it can only withstand the heat of so many chimney fires before its integrity becomes jepordized. IMO. I am new to this also this year. But finding this place last winter got me way ahead of the game. That would have scared the Be-jeezus out of me.

Again, I am new to woodburning also. But building a fire in your home can be dangerous and should be taken with great respect , as fire is a powerful thing.

 

[hemlock]

A week seems like a short amount of time to get enough build-up for a chimnney fire I would think. Maybe I'm wrong though.

 

[pen]

A week seems like a short amount of time to get enough build-up for a chimnney fire I would think. Maybe I'm wrong though.

With the right (or is that wrong) fuel it is doable.

Glad everything seems OK now. Get your hands on next years fuel now so that you can't get ahead of the curve!

pen

 

[Shari]

".................it's rated for coal burning and I was burning this red oak.........

Sounds like this is your base problem.

 

[joecool85]

".................it's rated for coal burning and I was burning this red oak.........

Sounds like this is your base problem.

I think he was referring to his chimney not his stove.

 

[Shari]

".................it's rated for coal burning and I was burning this red oak.........

Sounds like this is your base problem.

I think he was referring to his chimney not his stove.

Same problem.

 

[Stephen in SoKY]

Live in PA......already have a D.S. Machine stove............get thee some anthracite coal.

 

[joecool85]

".................it's rated for coal burning and I was burning this red oak.........

Sounds like this is your base problem.

I think he was referring to his chimney not his stove.

Same problem.

Why? My chimney is rated for coal and wood, I see no problem there.

 

[thechimneysweep]

Got this online:
Alaska forestry Dept, handout

“Burn The Wood Gases
Most of the moisture content remaining in seasoned firewood consists of wood resins. As wood
heats up in the fire chamber, these resins emit combustible gases which, when ignited in the
secondary burn chamber, can account for as much as half the heat output of the fire. When
green or wet firewood is burned, the extra water content turns to steam and mixes with the wood
gases, preventing them from igniting and releasing their heat value. When the draft control is set
too low and the fire smolders, the wood gases won’t ignite in the resulting oxygen-starved
environment, even if the firewood is properly seasoned. When the wood gases aren’t burned in
the secondary burn chamber, they escape up the chimney, taking their heat value with them and
creating heavy creosote formation.â€

Bogydave, can you tell me where you found that publication? The reason I ask is, I wrote this paragraph about 20 years ago, and included it in one of the handouts we still give to our Sweep customers to this day. A slightly edited version appears on our website at http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hobasics.htm. Evidently, the on-the-ball researchers at the Alaska Forestry Dept. got ahold of one of our flyers and lifted this paragraph verbatim, and I'm curious to see what else I might recognize.

 

[Shari]

Why? My chimney is rated for coal and wood, I see no problem there.

Your post had said it was rated for coal. Sorry if I misunderstood.

 

[joecool85]

Your post had said it was rated for coal. Sorry if I misunderstood.

The OP's post said rated for coal. I inferred that it was wood and coal rated, I suppose that isn't necessarily the case just because mine is rated as such.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

Less than a month ago I got a DS machines wood stove (double burn). So I bought a cord of "seasoned wood" red oak, I believe. Anyways, the outside looked to be seasoned from the split pieces, but it felt a little heavy. After just a week of burning, I hear that freight train noise! I closed down the pipe until it stopped, thinking "OK that was a mighty draw". It happened again about a week later. I looked inside the stove to see crystals of creosote, went and got some near rotten DRY wood, stacked it in there and the glass cleared right up and creosote crystals all disappeared. Looking outside the triple walled chimney I just installed, I caught the end of the fire; looked like a fire breathing dragon! I felt the pipe and it felt cool throughout, despite the 10 second chimney fire. Looking around, I see dried creosote sap junk all over the seams at the U outside. I had no idea just a couple weeks would do it. I know the chimney runs cool because of the double burning, which leads me to believe I should heat it up once every day or so to dry the chimney out and get rid of some of the creosote (I'm certian some piles up, even with seasoned wood).

THat completely surprised me! A month ago, I had nothing, now I've got a brand new system in there and already two fires up the stack! Luckily it didn't get hot; it's rated for coal burning and I was burning this red oak.

THat got me to thinking; when water only evaporates from the wood, is it just that the creosote-origin stuff in the wood is dry and burns before going up the stack with the moisture?

So, for now, I've got lines of wood a few feet from the stove making sure it's warm and dry before getting it in there. Luckily it's efficient, so about 4 pieces will do me for 8-10 hours.

Has this happened to anyone else? I certianly wasn't planning on anything like this! I'm grateful the stack didn't even get warm (even the single walled pipe didn't heat up; it was the whoosh freight train sound that I recognized that surprised me only a couple weeks in of burning.

Other than that, I'm happy to report, that stove works really well! My house is 78 degrees inside as I flip the middle finger to my $450 electric bills (PA electricity with baseboard heat; **** and pillage)!

You can see the smoke recirculating out of the pipe holes on the top creating a blow torch effect inside the stove. I've never seen smoke burn before, but they said that's what it would do! THe top of the stack blows hardly any smoke; I just wish the stack got at least warm on occasion; this tells me I really need to look out (or clean it out once a week, but I haven't shut it down all month).

I'd like to speed up drying; I wonder how long it would take to dry wood stacked in the basement near (not too near) the stove? At 90 degrees low humidity, how many months do you think it would take to dry a 6 month old split piece of wood? I was floored this "dry" cord I bought wasn't even close to dry! I thought it was just dense and heavy. I'm not sure what the oak is mixed with; some noxious smelling rough bark wood.

I am going to get a 3' longer extension for when that gets burning next time the smell won't even come near the house (two nights the smoke was dropping around the windows stinking us to high heaven)!

That is a long post for a simple answer. Fact is, even though your supplier told you the red oak is seasoned, it is meaningless. That red oak simply is not ready to burn! This is why you are having chimney fires. My best guess is that the wood was cut and split only a few months ago if even that long. You also need to be aware that this is perhaps the number one problem with new wood burners. Wood sellers tell folks that the wood is seasoned and ready to burn. They can tell you lots of stuff which will make you think they know what is right and that is what they have for sale. Then they buy and the wood is crap.

Fact: Red oak is one of the very best woods to burn. However, red oak is also one of the toughest woods to dry. Wood stoves don't like to burn water and freshly cut or split red oak has lots of water in it.

Around our house, we will not burn red oak until it has been split and stacked outside in the wind for 3 years. Occasionally one can get by with a year of drying (not seasoning) but 3 years is much better. Don't count drying (or seasoning) time until the wood has been split because in log form it simply will not dry. Then it should be stacked outside in the windiest spot you have. Stack it off the ground in single rows and let Mother Nature do her work of drying that wood. Stacking in the basement will help a little but what you really need is wind and room for that wind to circulate so as to dry that wood.

Your best bet is to try to find some other wood for this year and keep that red oak for a couple of years before burning it. Good luck on that. You might be able to pick up some old pallets and rip those apart to burn but you have to be very careful with this because of possible overfiring the stove.

Sorry, wood burning does not have to be difficult but there are some basic things that everyone needs to know and at the top of the list is the fuel you burn. Just like in a car, if you buy poor fuel, that motor just won't run worth a hoot. Same thing with poor fuel in the stove.

 

[bogydave]

Got this online:
Alaska forestry Dept, handout

“Burn The Wood Gases
Most of the moisture content remaining in seasoned firewood consists of wood resins. As wood
heats up in the fire chamber, these resins emit combustible gases which, when ignited in the
secondary burn chamber, can account for as much as half the heat output of the fire. When
green or wet firewood is burned, the extra water content turns to steam and mixes with the wood
gases, preventing them from igniting and releasing their heat value. When the draft control is set
too low and the fire smolders, the wood gases won’t ignite in the resulting oxygen-starved
environment, even if the firewood is properly seasoned. When the wood gases aren’t burned in
the secondary burn chamber, they escape up the chimney, taking their heat value with them and
creating heavy creosote formation.â€

Bogydave, can you tell me where you found that publication? The reason I ask is, I wrote this paragraph about 20 years ago, and included it in one of the handouts we still give to our Sweep customers to this day. A slightly edited version appears on our website at http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hobasics.htm. Evidently, the on-the-ball researchers at the Alaska Forestry Dept. got ahold of one of our flyers and lifted this paragraph verbatim, and I'm curious to see what else I might recognize.

http://forestry.alaska.gov/pdfs/08BTUFirewoodHandout.pdf

 

[mellow]

Interesting find.

See: http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hobasics.htm vs http://forestry.alaska.gov/pdfs/08BTUFirewoodHandout.pdf

I would say that is plagiarism.

 

[pen]

Probably had some intern w/ the forestry dept write that up.

pen

 

[tfdchief]

Got this online:
Alaska forestry Dept, handout

“Burn The Wood Gases
Most of the moisture content remaining in seasoned firewood consists of wood resins. As wood
heats up in the fire chamber, these resins emit combustible gases which, when ignited in the
secondary burn chamber, can account for as much as half the heat output of the fire. When
green or wet firewood is burned, the extra water content turns to steam and mixes with the wood
gases, preventing them from igniting and releasing their heat value. When the draft control is set
too low and the fire smolders, the wood gases won’t ignite in the resulting oxygen-starved
environment, even if the firewood is properly seasoned. When the wood gases aren’t burned in
the secondary burn chamber, they escape up the chimney, taking their heat value with them and
creating heavy creosote formation.â€

Bogydave, can you tell me where you found that publication? The reason I ask is, I wrote this paragraph about 20 years ago, and included it in one of the handouts we still give to our Sweep customers to this day. A slightly edited version appears on our website at http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hobasics.htm. Evidently, the on-the-ball researchers at the Alaska Forestry Dept. got ahold of one of our flyers and lifted this paragraph verbatim, and I'm curious to see what else I might recognize.

http://forestry.alaska.gov/pdf/08BTUFirewoodHandout.pdf

Tom,
Looks like plagiarism to me?

 

[castlegates]

My chimney is a triple wall Duravent (rated to something like 3k degrees)

Thanks for all your responses!

...So, after gauging the looking glass and the buildup of creosote on it based on my burning habits, I need to allow the chamber to get hotter before closing the straight shot through the stack and forcing the recirculating smoke reburn (it goes down, then up around the sides, then out). I found that when I close it too early, there is more smoke and it comes out really cool (allowing just about everything in the smoke to stick like velcro to the chimney). If the chamber is nice and hot, I hardly get any smoke with 5 logs at a time.

Luckily during the chimney fires (I think my tube is less than 2 months old or so by now) the outside stayed nice and cool (not warm, but cool). I don't intend to repeat that anytime soon! I guess any new stove takes some practice and I can agree to that red oak being a pain to dry! It's dense, heavy and full of moisture (even the sticks are still heavy after sitting out all summer plus however old they were when I bought 'em). I'll go with 3 years on those and stop using 'em.

So at my wood site, I found a few downed river birch trees and cut a couple cords up. Although some of it was "wet" it was not green and once the chamber gets nice and hot so they dry right out when I use them. That river beech burns HOT!

I suppose I should clean the stack every couple weeks...My problem is I haven't stopped to let it cool down since I got it going!

I still wonder why "green" wood is different than "wet" wood in the creosote production. I've always wondered that. I guess I'll surf the web to see. I know from a burning standpoint, but I don't quite understand why it's different the green versus a tree that's been on the forest floor sopping wet and why the green makes creosote while the wet just evaporates and burns nicely. Any scientists out there? (hahaha)!

Oh, regarding the anthracite. I have a supply of free wood and my objective is to keep my $450-$500 electric bill low as I can, not spending anything I don't absolutely have to (I support a wife, 2 kids and another on the way). I'll hook up the loop for hot water (yet another project my wife will be thrilled about)! So far, my savings are around $400 already this year with the stove!

I've got about 10 cords of non CSS wood; some huge rounds I've been splitting. I was thinking about getting a splitter but can't see blowing that much for 20+ tons of force when my axe swing can do the same thing....But getting older, splitting is also getting old! I tried one of those screw or unicorn splitters I picked up off the net for $45. Wow, that's a beast! I may stick with that but the splits aren't as clean (although my little honda ran it and it split a 2' crotch easily). OK, I'm rambling now (tired, haven't slept, work nights).

THanks again everyone for your responses! This is a great site!

 

[traditions]

I just bought the same sove as you,and the stove is rated for coal as it is wood,which I dont see as a problem,thats what all the old stoves were ,coal stoves that burned wood they just werent airtight.I dont think they could get a stove this size EPA approved for just wood.Anyways.the manual states to have your wood inside 60 days before burning,which is kinda hard for some people.Oak is the slowest wood to dry,and anyone I know that uses oak lets it dry for 3 years.I burn ash ,maple and burch and some spruce this time of year.I think this stove likes really dry wood,like any EPA stove I have dealt with,the drier the better.Its almost night and day on how they work.I have had about 6 or 8 fires in my stove so far this winter ,we are having a very mild start to winter this year and have only had a few nights in the teens.So far I have noticed the stack temp stays really steady at about 450 with the bimetal damper on the back of the stove set in the middle.There is a screw on the air flapper that the chain on the heat control hooks to.This should be adjusted so the air damper stays open about 1/8th of an inch,so you cant choke off the air.It will burn on secondary air,but that is on top of the stove and a long way from the fire as this is a deep firebox,unlike most of the EPA stoves that have burn tubes.When I bought my stove,Jim that sold it to me told me to adjust this screw so it wont choke the stove,after the bi metal damper had broke in after a couple fires.I have been having good luck with heating with this stove so far,it really throws the heat.Its almost to much stove right now because its just so mild here for December.On what cold stretches we have had ,I can do with this stove in 6 hours what took two days with the summit stove I replaced .I will definatly use more wood this year,but my house is way warmer .Good Luck and let me know how things are working out,there arent many people with these stoves .I kinda took a gamble on buying this stove as I never saw it in person,I just took the reputation of the Amish as a selling point and what little I could learn on the net.

 

[castlegates]

Winter has had a slower start since I'm south of you. Last night, we had a couple windows opened (nice to do just because you can), but in my room I keep them closed and enjoy the heat. We've got two large pots of water on the stove that keeps the humidity to a comfortable level. I do like the auto-adjustable valve that keeps the heat constant. I have been burning dry wood and haven't had any issues since I stopped using the oak. I got a few cords of super seasoned wood from the forest floor (some 1" termite eaten, but good inside). Wet (water wet) or dry, it seems to do really well as long as it's not green wet.

Have you hooked up your hot water to it yet? I was reluctant to buy this because of the price but I couldn't hack getting $500 heating bills this winter. I am comparing my bills and so far it's 1/6th paid for (or so) based on savings (estimated because this year is warmer than last so far). About 4 medium pieces will last me 8 hours. I'm thrilled about that! Once it gets colder, I'll tightly fill it to the top using small pieces in between every hole, but for now, I just put in one large and 2 medium or whatever is on hand to last through morning where I load it again.

I'm so happy to have a mountain (now around 12 cords of wood?) in my yard and a warm house! I dread splitting and stacking it, though. Most of it is green, a few is dry and ready. I have a few more trees, mostly dead, some downed in the hurricane to cut up and haul here. So far we're really happy with the stove. I just need to run some pipe, re-install the water loop and hook up my hot water to it, in order to fully take advantage of its economic features.

Once it's cranking, I like watching the tubes on the top shoot out flames of fire. I'm not exactly sure where the smoke drafts inside go, but it is cool seeing flames shooting out of the ceiling pipes of the stove doing its job.

I'm looking forward to weather in the teens. So far, it's been set on low and it heats the whole house pretty consistent with the auto-adjusting thermostat thingy on the back. On mine, I have the screw backed all the way out allowing that to close completely. I think enough air seeps in that it hasn't gone out or been close to going out yet so far (50 degree days it backs way down so it's barely warm with a few lit coals inside waiting for night where I turn it up a bit more).

I gotta get a thermometer (no I don't have one yet). It's been a world of difference since I stopped using the green wood (I though was seasoned, but obviously not enough). If it gets snowing a lot, I may stack a cord inside the garage (maybe that's what they mean about "inside" storage).

 

[traditions]

I didnt get the hot water coils.I wish I had,I could have plumbed it up later.I dont know where the smoke goes when you close the damper,it goes into the cast iron heat exchanger on the right,but not sure how it gets to the stove pipe.I would definatly get a pipe thermometer ,especialy if the stove isnt where you are ,like down cellar.You have to tend them for a bit before you can close them down after adding wood.The burn tubes on this stove work quite well,causung secondary burn for a long time during the stage of charring the wood.I used to bring in enough wood for a week at a time,but with this stove I have about a months worth ahead.Good Luck with your stove

 

[Mr. Kelly]

Bogydave, can you tell me where you found that publication? The reason I ask is, I wrote this paragraph about 20 years ago, and included it in one of the handouts we still give to our Sweep customers to this day. A slightly edited version appears on our website at http://www.chimneysweeponline.com/hobasics.htm. Evidently, the on-the-ball researchers at the Alaska Forestry Dept. got ahold of one of our flyers and lifted this paragraph verbatim, and I'm curious to see what else I might recognize.

You know what is said... Imitation is the highest form of flattery!

I would feel honored that the gov. felt your work was significant enough to copy, but... on the other hand... a mention of your name in the byline would have been obviously appropriate and an honor.

 

[begreen]

Probably had some intern w/ the forestry dept write that up.

pen

Methinks they need to give credit to the author or remove the handout.