Stove Loading - Split Off of PE Insert Not Bullet Proof

[drdoct]

My good old Elmira insert has LOTS of space in the firebox and I've never had more than three pieces in it. No firebricks except on the floor and no secondary air - yet!

After reading this sentence I understand why you were questioning that burn method. Before EPA stoves came out you are right that you would never stuff a stove that full... EVER. EPA stoves with secondary burn air (etc) are a complete different appliance than an older 'smoke dragon'. I was skeptical the first time I read about filling your firebox like that and having everything stuffed in there with no air gaps. It works. Epa stoves burn much more turbulently than their older siblings. It's like the difference between a cutting torch and a match.

So in the end... I agree with you and your setup. You would never pack your stove like that. However.... If you had an EPA stove, it'd be the norm.

 

[branchburner]

Shorter shoulder season burns give me city mileage, dead of winter calls for cruise control.

I buy that explanation. Although, it seems that a cat stove lets you use cruise control in the shoulder season.

I'm convinced of that. With my house and climate, my stove is "perfect" for me for about three of the seven months I burn. Not that perfection is remotely achievable, but my next stove will be a cat.

 

[Slow1]

Shorter shoulder season burns give me city mileage, dead of winter calls for cruise control.

I buy that explanation. Although, it seems that a cat stove lets you use cruise control in the shoulder season.

I'm convinced of that. With my house and climate, my stove is "perfect" for me for about three of the seven months I burn. Not that perfection is remotely achievable, but my next stove will be a cat.

And yet we read folks post about so many stove shop dealers saying cats are dead, outdated technology... a "stop gap" put in just until stove designs could be adjusted to meet EPA standards....

 

[Wetcoast Elmira]

My good old Elmira insert has LOTS of space in the firebox and I've never had more than three pieces in it. No firebricks except on the floor and no secondary air - yet!

After reading this sentence I understand why you were questioning that burn method. Before EPA stoves came out you are right that you would never stuff a stove that full... EVER. EPA stoves with secondary burn air (etc) are a complete different appliance than an older 'smoke dragon'. I was skeptical the first time I read about filling your firebox like that and having everything stuffed in there with no air gaps. It works. Epa stoves burn much more turbulently than their older siblings. It's like the difference between a cutting torch and a match.

So in the end... I agree with you and your setup. You would never pack your stove like that. However.... If you had an EPA stove, it'd be the norm.

That's interesting. Some friends of ours have a much more modern insert (not Elmira and unfortunately I don't remember the make) with secondary combustion, which seems to produce a lot more heat than the Elmira, but I've never seen more than three pieces in it either.

It's a question that needs a really scientific study to answer I guess.

The more wood in the firebox, the more flammable gases being given off, assuming the wood is at a high enough temperature to 'gas off'.

So if the manufacturers recommend not loading above the top of the firebricks, I just wonder if there is enough secondary air to combust all those gases, or even enough space/time for them to mix with the air and combust, when the wood is almost right up to the baffle/air source?

I would rather load less and be sure to get as complete a combustion as possible, but then it's a lot warmer out here. ;-)

I have to say that from some of the comments I've seen here, Elmira seems to have been pretty darn good for its day. I was just measuring up for my secondary air tubes yesterday, so I'll be interested to see what that does for the output when finished.

 

[Ronald]

I am new to using my EPA stove but my understanding that the intake air does its thing in the bottom of the stove not the top. If you have a good draft everything is pulled up to the flue.

 

[branchburner]

The more wood in the firebox, the more flammable gases being given off, assuming the wood is at a high enough temperature to 'gas off'.

So if the manufacturers recommend not loading above the top of the firebricks, I just wonder if there is enough secondary air to combust all those gases, or even enough space/time for them to mix with the air and combust, when the wood is almost right up to the baffle/air source?

I think you are right, there has to be a range of efficiency, and I'm sure the peak doesn't come at the point where you've eliminated as much air space as physically possible. Likewise, I doubt it would be with the stove only half full. Factoring in all the variables would make a decisive answer difficult, but that's a good thing: it lets us keep the conversation going indefinitely!

 

[branchburner]

Not that perfection is remotely achievable, but my next stove will be a cat.

And yet we read folks post about so many stove shop dealers saying cats are dead, outdated technology... a "stop gap" put in just until stove designs could be adjusted to meet EPA standards....

I wonder if cats will ever make a comeback beyond the folks who visit hearth.com. I think dealers just don't want to deal with explaining them. To me it's as simple as explaining the basics of an old diesel: for best results, warm the engine up and don't put gasoline in the tank.

 

[pen]

Not that perfection is remotely achievable, but my next stove will be a cat.

And yet we read folks post about so many stove shop dealers saying cats are dead, outdated technology... a "stop gap" put in just until stove designs could be adjusted to meet EPA standards....

I wonder if cats will ever make a comeback beyond the folks who visit hearth.com. I think dealers just don't want to deal with explaining them. To me it's as simple as explaining the basics of an old diesel: for best results, warm the engine up and don't put gasoline in the tank.

I think the biggest problem with cats come from the many people who still believe that a quality stove should be as reliable as an estwing hammer. In other words, no replacement parts, run for 70 years, etc.

So, when it comes to convincing the people who believe that a stove should be bullet proof that they'll need to replace a couple hundred dollar component every couple of years and it will fail in stages, they just shut down. Even if the efficiency of the unit pays for the expense.

pen

 

[EatenByLimestone]

I am new to using my EPA stove but my understanding that the intake air does its thing in the bottom of the stove not the top. If you have a good draft everything is pulled up to the flue.

My Century has the primary air supply just above the door. It washes down over the glass (airwash) and then curves down to the bottom front. My secondary air comes in from the back, passes over the top of the fire to heat up( back third), and is released at the top middle and front of the firebox. Any smoke or flue gasses remaining will pass through a channel that is about 2 inches wide between the secondary air inlets and the front of the stove.

Matt

 

[Highbeam]

I think I'm the one that proposed a non-linear relationship between fuel load and burn time in a non-cat stove. I believe this is the case by noting that the secondary air system is always running at full throttle. There is plenty of air to burn all wood gasses being boiled out of the fuel load whether it is 50% full or 100% full. Once the secondary burn really begins cooking it boils out even more gasses regardless of the primary air setting. You can bet the fire is lacking oxygen below the secondary air supply but that doesn't stop the production of wood gasses from that lower area to feed the secondary fire. So there is a rapid deployment of the fuel load whether big or small near the beginning that will run up the stove temp.

Longest burn comes from the fullest firebox along with the least amount of surface area from which to boil the wood gas. So big splits and plenty of them. Don't stuff a hot stove full, let it cool off some to make room for the full load and so that when the first boil off happens that you don't overfire.

Cat stoves are totally different from what I understand.

 

[iceman]

why dont you guys call tech support of your stoves and find out.....
most stoves give you a cf number ... i was told that cf number is where the bricks are.. epa stoves can burn packed full ... but in order to get hot long secondaries you need some space up there.. if you pack your stove tight on a hot bed of coals and shut your air down after say 10-15 minutes you will prolly see your stack smoling for awhile until the height of the wood in the stove allows enough space/air to get those secondaries going.. now different stoves may operate differntly but with pe thats how they work.. with a downdraft stove (harman) you can pack it tight (they suggest you do) i find that when i pack the summit tight i really need to watch the air because the baffle and rails will start glowing if i am not really watching it ... when i try to keep it at the top of the bricks my light sshow starts faster and of course continues for a long time..... i will try to pack it and see during the daytime... but i know if i pack it e/w to the top of the bricks i get a longer burn time than n/s of course....



************ LMAO I JUST CALLED PE AND ASKED FOR TECH SUPPORT TO CONFIRM WHAT I WAS TOLD AND A LADY (THE SAME ONE WHO ANSWERED THE PHONE WHEN I ASKED FOR TECH SUPPORT) SAID THE CF IS THE WHOLE INSIDE OF THE BOX .. SHE SAID TAKE OUT EVERYTHING AND THATS 3 CF! SHE ALSO SAID FILL IT TO THE BAFFLE!
so i guess i stand corrected but i am calling tom

well i am going to stuff it and fine out will report back tomorrow!

 

[Hogwildz]

why dont you guys call tech support of your stoves and find out.....
most stoves give you a cf number ... i was told that cf number is where the bricks are.. epa stoves can burn packed full ... but in order to get hot long secondaries you need some space up there.. if you pack your stove tight on a hot bed of coals and shut your air down after say 10-15 minutes you will prolly see your stack smoling for awhile until the height of the wood in the stove allows enough space/air to get those secondaries going.. now different stoves may operate differntly but with pe thats how they work.. with a downdraft stove (harman) you can pack it tight (they suggest you do) i find that when i pack the summit tight i really need to watch the air because the baffle and rails will start glowing if i am not really watching it ... when i try to keep it at the top of the bricks my light sshow starts faster and of course continues for a long time..... i will try to pack it and see during the daytime... but i know if i pack it e/w to the top of the bricks i get a longer burn time than n/s of course....



************ LMAO I JUST CALLED PE AND ASKED FOR TECH SUPPORT TO CONFIRM WHAT I WAS TOLD AND A LADY (THE SAME ONE WHO ANSWERED THE PHONE WHEN I ASKED FOR TECH SUPPORT) SAID THE CF IS THE WHOLE INSIDE OF THE BOX .. SHE SAID TAKE OUT EVERYTHING AND THATS 3 CF! SHE ALSO SAID FILL IT TO THE BAFFLE!
so i guess i stand corrected but i am calling tom

well i am going to stuff it and fine out will report back tomorrow!

Fill it to the baffle, thats what the space is for.
It is NOT an issue about not enough air for combustion of the gasses. The Secondary is its own air source, not controlled by the lever.
The baffle has jets on both the top and front. And trust me on this one, even with wood up to the baffle, those jets will blast holes in the wood at where they exit.
To the original poster of the thread. So a smaller unit say like a Vista should only put a split in there? or 2 or 3 small pcs?
The firebox is its size for a reason. Same thing for your old smoke dragon. That box should be huge, and the reason is, back then, they got crap for efficiency, so the large area was loaded full to achieve long burn times. 3 splits in an old smoke dragon is going to go much faster than any new stove. Its burn and up the stack with no resistance and no secondary to burn the gasses off and gain that added energy.
The only time 3 splits go in this one, is in the shoulder seasons.
A full box does NOT equal overfire.

 

[iceman]

why dont you guys call tech support of your stoves and find out.....
most stoves give you a cf number ... i was told that cf number is where the bricks are.. epa stoves can burn packed full ... but in order to get hot long secondaries you need some space up there.. if you pack your stove tight on a hot bed of coals and shut your air down after say 10-15 minutes you will prolly see your stack smoling for awhile until the height of the wood in the stove allows enough space/air to get those secondaries going.. now different stoves may operate differntly but with pe thats how they work.. with a downdraft stove (harman) you can pack it tight (they suggest you do) i find that when i pack the summit tight i really need to watch the air because the baffle and rails will start glowing if i am not really watching it ... when i try to keep it at the top of the bricks my light sshow starts faster and of course continues for a long time..... i will try to pack it and see during the daytime... but i know if i pack it e/w to the top of the bricks i get a longer burn time than n/s of course....



************ LMAO I JUST CALLED PE AND ASKED FOR TECH SUPPORT TO CONFIRM WHAT I WAS TOLD AND A LADY (THE SAME ONE WHO ANSWERED THE PHONE WHEN I ASKED FOR TECH SUPPORT) SAID THE CF IS THE WHOLE INSIDE OF THE BOX .. SHE SAID TAKE OUT EVERYTHING AND THATS 3 CF! SHE ALSO SAID FILL IT TO THE BAFFLE!
so i guess i stand corrected but i am calling tom

well i am going to stuff it and fine out will report back tomorrow!

Fill it to the baffle, thats what the space is for.
It is NOT an issue about not enough air for combustion of the gasses. The Secondary is its own air source, not controlled by the lever.
The baffle has jets on both the top and front. And trust me on this one, even with wood up to the baffle, those jets will blast holes in the wood at where they exit.
To the original poster of the thread. So a smaller unit say like a Vista should only put a split in there? or 2 or 3 small pcs?
The firebox is its size for a reason. Same thing for your old smoke dragon. That box should be huge, and the reason is, back then, they got crap for efficiency, so the large area was loaded full to achieve long burn times. 3 splits in an old smoke dragon is going to go much faster than any new stove. Its burn and up the stack with no resistance and no secondary to burn the gasses off and gain that added energy.
The only time 3 splits go in this one, is in the shoulder seasons.
A full box does NOT equal overfire.

i was gonna call tom and then you ....... but since you said it i am convinced now...... i will start packing it full when the temp drops...

 

[Hogwildz]

why dont you guys call tech support of your stoves and find out.....
most stoves give you a cf number ... i was told that cf number is where the bricks are.. epa stoves can burn packed full ... but in order to get hot long secondaries you need some space up there.. if you pack your stove tight on a hot bed of coals and shut your air down after say 10-15 minutes you will prolly see your stack smoling for awhile until the height of the wood in the stove allows enough space/air to get those secondaries going.. now different stoves may operate differntly but with pe thats how they work.. with a downdraft stove (harman) you can pack it tight (they suggest you do) i find that when i pack the summit tight i really need to watch the air because the baffle and rails will start glowing if i am not really watching it ... when i try to keep it at the top of the bricks my light sshow starts faster and of course continues for a long time..... i will try to pack it and see during the daytime... but i know if i pack it e/w to the top of the bricks i get a longer burn time than n/s of course....



************ LMAO I JUST CALLED PE AND ASKED FOR TECH SUPPORT TO CONFIRM WHAT I WAS TOLD AND A LADY (THE SAME ONE WHO ANSWERED THE PHONE WHEN I ASKED FOR TECH SUPPORT) SAID THE CF IS THE WHOLE INSIDE OF THE BOX .. SHE SAID TAKE OUT EVERYTHING AND THATS 3 CF! SHE ALSO SAID FILL IT TO THE BAFFLE!
so i guess i stand corrected but i am calling tom

well i am going to stuff it and fine out will report back tomorrow!

Fill it to the baffle, thats what the space is for.
It is NOT an issue about not enough air for combustion of the gasses. The Secondary is its own air source, not controlled by the lever.
The baffle has jets on both the top and front. And trust me on this one, even with wood up to the baffle, those jets will blast holes in the wood at where they exit.
To the original poster of the thread. So a smaller unit say like a Vista should only put a split in there? or 2 or 3 small pcs?
The firebox is its size for a reason. Same thing for your old smoke dragon. That box should be huge, and the reason is, back then, they got crap for efficiency, so the large area was loaded full to achieve long burn times. 3 splits in an old smoke dragon is going to go much faster than any new stove. Its burn and up the stack with no resistance and no secondary to burn the gasses off and gain that added energy.
The only time 3 splits go in this one, is in the shoulder seasons.
A full box does NOT equal overfire.

i was gonna call tom and then you ....... but since you said it i am convinced now...... i will start packing it full when the temp drops...

If your ok with your burn times now, burn as you have been. I want as long as I can get. Call Tom also and gain his input, I'd be curious as to what he has to say.
I'm just one guy.

 

[drdoct]

After a while you just know what your stove likes and what it doesn't like. Mine likes a nice full load and to be brought up to 500 or so then closed to half up to around 550, then air all the way off. Secondaries burn like a nice roaring jet flame. I've got a few inches above my tubes with plenty of air space for combustion. And like Hog said sometimes it acts like a torch and cuts a few holes in the split. I'm not really concerned with how other people's stoves run as much as saying... mine runs like this. It likes to be left alone once I close down the air until it's about 300-350 then it wants more wood. Y'all can stick 1 to 4 splits in your stoves if you want and it may work great. I've done that and a lot more figuring out my stove and mine doesn't like that at all. Now if we could just get a little colder weather....

 

[iceman]

why dont you guys call tech support of your stoves and find out.....
most stoves give you a cf number ... i was told that cf number is where the bricks are.. epa stoves can burn packed full ... but in order to get hot long secondaries you need some space up there.. if you pack your stove tight on a hot bed of coals and shut your air down after say 10-15 minutes you will prolly see your stack smoling for awhile until the height of the wood in the stove allows enough space/air to get those secondaries going.. now different stoves may operate differntly but with pe thats how they work.. with a downdraft stove (harman) you can pack it tight (they suggest you do) i find that when i pack the summit tight i really need to watch the air because the baffle and rails will start glowing if i am not really watching it ... when i try to keep it at the top of the bricks my light sshow starts faster and of course continues for a long time..... i will try to pack it and see during the daytime... but i know if i pack it e/w to the top of the bricks i get a longer burn time than n/s of course....



************ LMAO I JUST CALLED PE AND ASKED FOR TECH SUPPORT TO CONFIRM WHAT I WAS TOLD AND A LADY (THE SAME ONE WHO ANSWERED THE PHONE WHEN I ASKED FOR TECH SUPPORT) SAID THE CF IS THE WHOLE INSIDE OF THE BOX .. SHE SAID TAKE OUT EVERYTHING AND THATS 3 CF! SHE ALSO SAID FILL IT TO THE BAFFLE!
so i guess i stand corrected but i am calling tom

well i am going to stuff it and fine out will report back tomorrow!

Fill it to the baffle, thats what the space is for.
It is NOT an issue about not enough air for combustion of the gasses. The Secondary is its own air source, not controlled by the lever.
The baffle has jets on both the top and front. And trust me on this one, even with wood up to the baffle, those jets will blast holes in the wood at where they exit.
To the original poster of the thread. So a smaller unit say like a Vista should only put a split in there? or 2 or 3 small pcs?
The firebox is its size for a reason. Same thing for your old smoke dragon. That box should be huge, and the reason is, back then, they got crap for efficiency, so the large area was loaded full to achieve long burn times. 3 splits in an old smoke dragon is going to go much faster than any new stove. Its burn and up the stack with no resistance and no secondary to burn the gasses off and gain that added energy.
The only time 3 splits go in this one, is in the shoulder seasons.
A full box does NOT equal overfire.

i was gonna call tom and then you ....... but since you said it i am convinced now...... i will start packing it full when the temp drops...

If your ok with your burn times now, burn as you have been. I want as long as I can get. Call Tom also and gain his input, I'd be curious as to what he has to say.
I'm just one guy.

true you are one guy, but your like a summit god!
on another note, i think i have a bad door gasket! i have a secondary flame that seems to be coming from the front of the door! cant tell if its from the space tht the manifold thingy has at the end of it or what ... i am gonna do tht 1 inch round thing you mentioned!


well i am burning e/w put a load of 7 splits in which was barely higher than the bricks (it was but not by much) she is cruising around 600 now with 1 split just about gone and 2 more burning ... tomorrow is supposed to 55-60 so i wont start her again till tomorrow night at which i will do n/s and try to pack it to the baffle

 

[Hogwildz]

Ice, have you adjusted the tab on the stove fron to try and tighten the door seal?
I ran into the problem of mine being as far as I could take it and the roller was actually toughing the face of the stove.
I have found a fix for this, PM me if you wanna know. Might save the hassle of changing the gasket.

 

[iceman]

well i am burning n/s and got 12 splits in compared to 7 started from cold start at 845am its now 540pm stove has about 3.5 inches of coals/remaining wood temp is at 400 on front of insert... by the time i wanna reload i am gonna have much more coals than my other way.this will prolly extend my time by an hour or but still up in the air as with more coals left will that end up being wasted heat.. will have to see from my next burn!