Stove quality

[Dan Eichenwald]

I'm on the market for a wood stove insert for an existing masonry fireplace. House is about 2600 sq ft., 2 floors and a very open floor plan with a stair case in the middle of the house. I've been to 5 different stove shops and am a bit overwhelmed by the number of different brands of wood stoves. I've gotten the same story from a few that they have stopped carrying Vermont Castings because their quality has suffered lately due to the company being sold and them selling to big box stores. Other stores that carry VC of course say this is not true. I love the look of the merrimack but am concerned about the quality. The Quadrafire 3100 also looks like a great stove and very efficient with ACC. I've also seen Harman, Regency, Napoleon, Osbourne, Lennox and I'm sure others as well but my impression is that Quadrafire and VC are the two big hitters. So:

1. Is it true that I should be concerned about VC quality. I've read on this forum about weld issues and fan noise and the fan not kicking on for a long time.
2. Are Harman, Regency, Napoleon, Osbourne, etc... smaller companies and should I be concerned about going with them?
3. Is the ACC on the Quadrafire really that much more efficient? Do any other companies use that concept?

Thanks!
Dan

 

[kingquad]

Napoleon doesn't make an insert large enough for house. Harman Stoves are all downdraft models that can present some problems.

I would start with these

NON CATS
PE Summit
Regency 3100
Lopi Freedom
Osburn 2400
Quadrafire 5100

CATS
Kuma Sequoia
Buck 91
Blaze King Princess
Country Flame BBF

How does your wood supply look?

 

[jeff_t]

I think VC is getting better. If you want to read about the Merrimack, try this https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/vermont-castings-merrimack.51941/. I didn't read all eleven pages.

Those smaller companies build top quality products. I wouldn't be afraid of any of them, though Harman's customer service has been questionable. Harman and Quad are both brands of Hearth & Home Technologies. I would add the PE Summit insert to your list, as well.

 

[Dan Eichenwald]

Thanks. I have about 6 cords of split oak thats been drying for about a year now. I'd definitely prefer to stay away from catalytics. And our TV is in the room with the stove so we hang out there every night and I don't want to make it uncomfortable. So I think the Quad 5100 is too big. And the 4100 doesn't do ACC. The house is 2600 sq ft, but we spend most of the day downstairs and I don't mind it a bit cooler at night. (BTW, we're in PA). From what I've seen, Harman only makes a unit that is too big for my house. I haven't seen any place around that sells PE or Lopi. I'll take a look. Thanks for the recommendations. Thoughts on ACC? Is it that much more efficient? One of the stove shops that I visited said that Osbourne was a cheaper model. Of course he was pushing VC. Never know who to trust! You guys have no concerns with Osbourne?

 

[Jags]

The 5100 won't be too big if you have the ability to get the warm air moving to the rest of the house.

I will also second (third or whatever) the addition of the Summit to your list. A very solid performer.

The ACC is the new fangled version of the start up air on my Quad Isle Royal. It makes for one of the easiest and fastest start up stoves on the market.

 

[jeff_t]

Tons of happy Osburn owners here.

Good that you already have a bunch of wood split, though the oak may be iffy for this winter. Oak takes a long time to dry.

 

[begreen]

I would add a Jotul C550 to your list of possibles, especially if you are looking for a more traditional cast iron front.

The ACC on the Quads is to assist in starting the stove primarily. Personally I am a bit leary of mechanisms that can fail overtime with some negative consequences. You don't need them to have an efficient, easy to light stove. Dry kindling and wood and a SuperCedar will start quickly every time.

 

[Dan Eichenwald]

The Quad salesman told me that ACC allows the unit to burn more efficiently because it draws air from the outside rather than the "limited" supply in your house. He never even mentioned starting up more easily. I know modern furnaces now draw air from the outside of the house as well for more efficient combustion. From what the salesman showed me, its just a valve that feeds up through the chimney to draw air from outside. By opening/closing that valve you can switch ACC on or off. Is this not true?

 

[begreen]

The salesperson is blowing smoke. Outside air is a separate feature. An outside air kit is an option on many inserts.

From Quadrafire:
" ACC delivers precision air control during start-up and monitors heat levels for solid, consistent performance."
"Automatic combustion control-

Automatic Combustion Control (ACC) technology "feeds
the fire" by providing air when it's needed the most, and
then steadily controls it. Simple levers on the insert provide
airflow into the firebox for easier start-ups and reloading.
Then automatic timers slowly reduce the flow of air,
maintaining a clean-burning, efficient fire with little to no
interaction from the homeowner. Now heating with wood is
more convenient than ever."

 

[jeff_t]

I think I would find a different salesman. I also would get too hung up on ACC. Kinda like PE's EBT, extended burn technology. Do a search here.

Most stoves can draw combustion air from outside with an outside air kit (OAK). Certainly an asset if your home is particularly tight. It's also a good theory, in that your stove isn't using air from inside, thereby not drawing cold air into the house and creating cold drafts.

 

[Jags]

The ACC has absolutely nothing in common with the EBT. I agree, don't get caught up with it. A properly installed stove will have all the draft needed to get a fire going.

Its just that mine is going faster (neener, neener )

 

[Ashful]

I've been researching VC myself, and here's what I've concluded. VC was a great name in the hearth industry for many, many years. In the 1980's or 1990's, they were purchased by CFM, who ran them into bankruptcy. They had some pretty awful quality problems, and customer service to match. Most of the negative reviews you read about their stoves are from this period.

In 2008, VC was bought by Monessen Hearth Systems Company (MHSC), who has been steadily trying to right the ship, with vastly improved designs, quality, and customer service. Most owners of new MHSC-VC stoves seem to be very happy with them.

 

[begreen]

Actually, the majority of the quality issues were with the non-cat VC lines. Their cat stove lines performed better over time. These issues were exacerbated by CFMs poor support. How well the new VC 2n1 designs stand up is to be determined. They haven't been out long enough to know, but the hope is that they have put these problems behind them.

 

[jeff_t]

The ACC has absolutely nothing in common with the EBT. I agree, don't get caught up with it. A properly installed stove will have all the draft needed to get a fire going.

Its just that mine is going faster (neener, neener )

Understand that the two systems are totally unrelated, except that they are both marketing gizmos.

 

[Jags]

Understand that the two systems are totally unrelated, except that they are both marketing gizmos.

Except the ACC actually works in favor of the stove.

 

[Dan Eichenwald]

Just stopped by a PE dealer. I really am now partial to the look of Cast Iron over steel. So I think the PE Summit and Quad lines are out. They also carried Hearthstone. Looks like the Clydesdale would fit best. Know anything about Hearthstone? This salesman loved it. Looks like a great stove. "Largest viewing window in the class". Soapstone. Accessible fan. And it looks great. The Alderea T5 is also nice but smaller viewing window. Opinions on these?

BTW, this guy also sells VC and steered me away from them. He said replacement parts are the biggest problem.

 

[Ashful]

BTW, this guy also sells VC and steered me away from them. He said replacement parts are the biggest problem.

Either that, or smaller dealer commissions.

 

[CK1]

Dan,

You seem to be in the same exact boat as me right now. I have about a 2500 sqft house, live in northern md and am looking for a medium to large wood stove insert that can heat a large majority of the house. I also much prefer the look of the cast iron stoves vs the steel stoves and the top 2 on my list are the clydesdale and the alderlea t5. I'm leaning towards the clydesdale though because the firebox is bigger, 2.4 vs 2.1 cu ft. The new version of the clydesdale 8491 (old version 8490) seems to have descent reviews, only a few complains on the door handle and fan noise. I haven't seen many reviews on the t5 but the few that there are seem to be positive.

1 thing I find weird is the clydesdale lists 60,000 max btu output and the T5 lists 72,000, but the Clydesdale has a bigger firebox so it should be able to put out more heat. I don't really trust these manufactures btu output specs. But a dealer I talked to said the T5 would put out more heat based on BTU ratings.

The clydesdale from what I've found is generally more expensive, I've shopped both stoves at a few stores in maryland and the going prices seem to be $3400 for the clydesdale and $3050 for the T5.

Given all that information, I think i'm leaning towards the clydesdale because if I could only choose between those 2 I would like to get the 1 that puts out the most heat, and using the firebox as the main determining factor that leaves the clydesdale. From another dealer I've talked to the fan is also much more accessiable on the clydesdale vs pacific energy brand.

You may also want to look at the Jotul Rockland. I would've included it in my shortlist, but the clearences didn't meet my fireplace specs, that is also another reason why the summit is off my list because the clearences are to big for my fireplace. The quads in my opinion are some really ugly fireplaces, so I didn't consider those. Look at the fireplace clearences if you don't have a very large hearth, or a smaller size mantle, it can really limit your options if you build it to nfpa 'code'.

I'm hoping to make a decision in the next couple weeks, I think i've searched the entire web and back for information on these 2 stoves but I unfortuantely think it'll be hard to know how it really works until you put it into your house.

 

[kingquad]

Dan,

You seem to be in the same exact boat as me right now. I have about a 2500 sqft house, live in northern md and am looking for a medium to large wood stove insert that can heat a large majority of the house. I also much prefer the look of the cast iron stoves vs the steel stoves and the top 2 on my list are the clydesdale and the alderlea t5. I'm leaning towards the clydesdale though because the firebox is bigger, 2.4 vs 2.1 cu ft. The new version of the clydesdale 8491 (old version 8490) seems to have descent reviews, only a few complains on the door handle and fan noise. I haven't seen many reviews on the t5 but the few that there are seem to be positive.

1 thing I find weird is the clydesdale lists 60,000 max btu output and the T5 lists 72,000, but the Clydesdale has a bigger firebox so it should be able to put out more heat. I don't really trust these manufactures btu output specs. But a dealer I talked to said the T5 would put out more heat based on BTU ratings.

The clydesdale from what I've found is generally more expensive, I've shopped both stoves at a few stores in maryland and the going prices seem to be $3400 for the clydesdale and $3050 for the T5.

Given all that information, I think i'm leaning towards the clydesdale because if I could only choose between those 2 I would like to get the 1 that puts out the most heat, and using the firebox as the main determining factor that leaves the clydesdale. From another dealer I've talked to the fan is also much more accessiable on the clydesdale vs pacific energy brand.

You may also want to look at the Jotul Rockland. I would've included it in my shortlist, but the clearences didn't meet my fireplace specs, that is also another reason why the summit is off my list because the clearences are to big for my fireplace. The quads in my opinion are some really ugly fireplaces, so I didn't consider those. Look at the fireplace clearences if you don't have a very large hearth, or a smaller size mantle, it can really limit your options if you build it to nfpa 'code'.

I'm hoping to make a decision in the next couple weeks, I think i've searched the entire web and back for information on these 2 stoves but I unfortuantely think it'll be hard to know how it really works until you put it into your house.

I would take a hard look at the Enviro Boston 1700. It's got a bigger firebox than the PE or Hearthstone, looks just as good, and usually costs less. I had the Kodiak model (same firebox) and it was an awesome stove. Ignore manufacturer BTU claims. Firebox size is what matters, and at 2500sqft you want the biggest one you can get.

 

[Dan Eichenwald]

I was quoted the same $3400 for the Clydesdale and Hearthstone is having a $300 sale through the end of July, their "Flags to Fireworks" event.

http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/about/details?news_item_id=24

Also note that the Clydesdale takes up to 22" logs while the T5 only up to 18". I really like the huge window on the Clydesdale, but I'll check out the Jotul and Enviro Boston.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[jeff_t]

I was quoted the same $3400 for the Clydesdale and Hearthstone is having a $300 sale through the end of July, their "Flags to Fireworks" event.

http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/about/details?news_item_id=24

Also note that the Clydesdale takes up to 22" logs while the T5 only up to 18". I really like the huge window on the Clydesdale, but I'll check out the Jotul and Enviro Boston.

Thanks for the feedback!

Note that the T5 takes the 18" split N-S, meaning straight in. Makes for much easier loading, and no chance of a log rolling up against the door.

 

[kingquad]

I was quoted the same $3400 for the Clydesdale and Hearthstone is having a $300 sale through the end of July, their "Flags to Fireworks" event.

http://www.hearthstonestoves.com/about/details?news_item_id=24

Also note that the Clydesdale takes up to 22" logs while the T5 only up to 18". I really like the huge window on the Clydesdale, but I'll check out the Jotul and Enviro Boston.

Thanks for the feedback!

I think the Clydesdale is the best looking insert made. Wouldn't fit in my fireplace though. I seriously considered the Morgan for awhile, but went with the larger firebox on the Enviro.

 

[FyreBug]

Your Question... "2. Are Harman, Regency, Napoleon, Osbourne, etc... smaller companies and should I be concerned about going with them?"
is interesting since the companies mentioned are the largest in the industry. In wood appliances shipped as per HPBA 1) HHT (Harman, Quad etc...) 2) Travis Industry (Lopi, Avalon etc...) 3) SBI (Osburn, Drolet etc...)

Hearthstone is a great company. I love the Clydesdale and if I had a masonry fireplace large enough this is what I would put in there.

We make the Osburn so as far a quality is concerned we have a lifetime warranty on burn-tube, glass (even if you break it by accident we will replace it), we're the only one I know of who use 3/8" top plate steel etc... and just look for comments on this site for this brand to see what users think.

As far as Monessen/VC, the company has been for sale for a few years and unfortunately they are going through some challenges. As to how it impacts their products your best bet is to talk to a few of their dealers.

 

[firecracker_77]

Try browsing through the wanted / for sale forum to see if there are any inserts that you like. Generally 50% discount or more going the used avenue. There's always people that can put them in or a stove shop will do it in your area even if you don't buy from them.

I had a couple of carpenters that I know and trust install mine. Not one issue in over 2 years with the stove / leaks from the roof. There's enough info on this forum that you can ask installation questions.

I personally wouldn't pay $3k or more for a new stove / insert if I could find one for $1500 or less. If you pay that much, you will have a pretty good sized bill once installation charges and materials are factored in.