Suggestions- Rear Exit Stoves

[Cluttermagnet]

Hi, All-

We are thinking about possibly replacing our old stove with something more
efficient. One important concern we have- it must be a rear exit type.

Our present stove feeds through a block off plate at the top of a fireplace on the
main floor of the house using 6 inch pipe at ~20-24 in. height. That pipe angles
up ~1.5 inches over a ~3 foot run, then through a 90 degree elbow and the plate.
The stove sits on an extended flagstone hearth in front of the fireplace. Added
heat baffles protect the wood mantle above and any combustibles directly below
the stove and the flagstone. This setup has served us well, heating an ~1500
square foot rambler very comfortably.

I'm looking at the Buck 261 stove which can be optioned for rear exit. Can anyone
suggest other models to look at with rear exit? I know this greatly limits our choices.
We want a non-catalytic EPA type. Our present stove loads north-south and will
take splits up to 21-22 inches long. The firebox is close to 3 cubic feet. It looks a
bit like the Buck 261 in fact- kind of a 'shop stove' look. We're not trying to get
written up in "Better Homes..." magazine, just to heat our house. Great looks would
be viewed strictly as a bonus, not a necessity.

We have a beautiful fireplace which, alas, never drew well ( it's a 2-sided fireplace).
Designed by a relative who knew nothing about fireplaces, it is pretty but useless.
But with the wood stove, it comes alive and is quite functional. Our 'two-sided
advantage": you can put a 20 inch box fan on the back side and move a *lot*
of air through. This helps to distribute the heat well throughout the main floor.
That fan usually runs on Low and it's quiet.

Suggestions, anyone- in addition to the Buck 261? Thanks!

 

[Cluttermagnet]

So far I've seen a Woodstock IS in another thread. It looks expensive.

 

[timfromohio]

We also wanted a rear exit stove. I looked at Jotuls (F55, F500) and Quadrafire (Explorer 2 and 3). Settled on Explorer 2.

 

[begreen]

What is the lintel height of the fireplace? This is the determining factor.

 

[Cluttermagnet]

We also wanted a rear exit stove. I looked at Jotuls (F55, F500) and Quadrafire (Explorer 2 and 3). Settled on Explorer 2.

That's a beauty! Thanks.

 

[Cluttermagnet]

What is the lintel height of the fireplace? This is the determining factor.

I'll get the lintel height later today when I'm back over there- thanks!

 

[Cluttermagnet]

What is the lintel height of the fireplace? This is the determining factor.

The lintel is 41 inches above the flagstone hearth...

 

[Ashful]

So far I've seen a Woodstock IS in another thread. It looks expensive.

It's also catalytic. I'm curious as to your desire for non-catalytic? Lots of members of this forum, who use their stove as their primary heater, have switched from non-cat to catalytic. You don't see many going the other way.

 

[begreen]

The lintel is 41 inches above the flagstone hearth...

Great, you have a lot of latitude for choices then. I agree the the Woodstock Ideal Steel is worth checking out in addition to the Jotul F55. However, you may want to consider a top vented stove if the lintel is that high. That could save you some bucks. For example an Englander 30NC should fit in there and it is under $1000. Here is BrotherBart's 30NC.

 

[Cluttermagnet]

Thanks! Well, I'd very much like to put a 30NC in. I hear good things about
that company and that model- and I like that some of their line is also
pretty reasonably priced. I just need to think about this because my
present stove is outside the fireplace and only a short run of 6in pipe
intrudes into that space. So my starting assumption has been "stove
outside of the fireplace. Yep, need to rethink... so long as I leave it open
on both sides I can still blow air across it with a box fan. My mind is stuck
on the notion that a stove 'out in the room' is a better heater than an
insert style...

 

[Cluttermagnet]

It's also catalytic. I'm curious as to your desire for non-catalytic? Lots of members of this forum, who use their stove as their primary heater, have switched from non-cat to catalytic. You don't see many going the other way.

Yes, I saw that right away. They describe it as a hybrid tech type. It sounds really nice
and it looks great. It's getting into that areas I consider 'a little pricey'. That being said,
if I really had my heart set on that one I could make it happen...

In my mind, the non-cat types seem more desirable because the catalytic element
can apparently be ruined by someone running the stove improperly. I hear a new one
runs like 300 dollars and up. I remember reading more than a few stories in these
forums with unhappy campers facing that very problem- bad cat element. Some were
even surprised, i.e. felt they had done everything right and were unhappy as to how
soon they were being forced to replace theirs...

 

[Cluttermagnet]

The lintel is 41 inches above the flagstone hearth...

I forgot to mention one important detail- while it's 41 inches from lintel to hearth,
there is less vertical space up in the fireplace. I would say around 4in less.
Perhaps a brick width or so. I'll have to go back over and measure that.
At the time I measured the lintel height, it never occurred to me that it could
be 'stove inside the fireplace'. All I was concerned with was getting an angled-up
pipe to clear the lintel.

So the bottom of the fireplace is a raised brick platform, not just flagstone. And
if I remember right, that's fire brick as the platform itself. All vertical faces are
regular red brick.

In my mind's eye, I'm also picturing a 13NC in there. The house is only 1300-
1500 sf. Not really trying to heat the basement at all, just the upstairs. A 30NC
may even be more than I need. OTOH that house is very poorly insulated. Very.
It leaks like a sieve all winter long. If I ever get the time I need to improve the
insulation...

BTW I'm still picturing a plain looking Buck 261 and wondering if it would fit
up in that cavity as a top exhaust stove. It can be configured for rear exhaust
which is why I started with it in the first place. And it's a little, ah, plain- sort of
like the butt ugly stove I have in there right now. And it will load really long
splits north-south. 18-20 in stove chow is a pain if you're not set up for that
standard from the outset. I burn some pretty long splits at times.

Then there's the problem of cleanouts. If I keep the stove outside the fireplace,
I can have a cleanout tee right there. My present setup lacks that. It's still
something you can work with for cleanouts, but a tee would be soooo much
better and easier...

This is a chimney near the center of the house, not the end. That's a good thing.
But OTOH no possibility of an outside cleanout for this chimney, that's why
I'd like to add a tee in the fireplace.

 

[CanukHermit]

My avatar is my woodstove - a Pacific energy Super 27 made in 2004. I just replaced most of the firebrick and insulation (yep - has insulation INSIDE).

The baffle at the top is not only the air intake chamber, it is insulated and removable quite easily (within seconds).

The stove burns so efficiently (I use 3 different stove thermometers to keep it at optimal operating temperature) that I only get about a cupful of residue/creosote left on top of the baffle after cleaning out the flame arrestor/rain-cap outside.

Seeing as my chimney is almost perfectly vertical, creosote buildup is naturally minimal - any elbows increase the likelihood of creosote buildup immensely.

I had a friend who put a regular stove in the fireplace opening - he loved it. Although it took a wee bit longer for the room to warm up, the surrounding bricks retained the heat for much longer than an exposed stove would.

The Super 27 comes with an optional blower that fits on the rear bottom, blows the heat up the back and across the top of the stove outwards. I use a pair of Eco-fans to help it out . . .

The Super 27s ain't cheap tho, but I've seen used ones on-line for around 1K.

You can find the specs and measurements here ----> (broken link removed)

Happy hunting!

 

[Cluttermagnet]

Thanks! The PE Super 27 looks very nice. Some interesting reading on their
website regarding catalytic vs. non-cat. I stopped after about ten minutes, but
find the letters page so fascinating I intend to return to finish reading. Nothing
has so far changed my own gut feeling that catalytic stoves are something I'd
prefer not to get involved with. OTOH I'd probably learn and adapt just fine if
I had one. I'm quite attentive and 'hands on' during burn sessions. Wood stoves
are rather 'fiddly' things... I'm constantly fine tuning...

Oh- regarding the 'stove in the fireplace' issue, I do have quite a unique
situation with my see-through/ two-sided fireplace. Heat would get stored in the
brick chimney all right, but would also spill out constantly in copious amounts on
both sides. Or I can continue to run the box fan in the back, which would be
my preference. This pushes all the warm air towards the remaining 2/3 of the
house and that room on the other side gets heated nicely anyway.

I haven't yet decided whether there is any real benefit to me to put a new
stove in that cavity. Out front works just fine for me so far. I'm thinking real
hard about that issue.

 

[Ashful]

In my mind, the non-cat types seem more desirable because the catalytic element
can apparently be ruined by someone running the stove improperly. I hear a new one
runs like 300 dollars and up. I remember reading more than a few stories in these
forums with unhappy campers facing that very problem- bad cat element. Some were
even surprised, i.e. felt they had done everything right and were unhappy as to how
soon they were being forced to replace theirs...

It is possible, if you are a very careless operator, to ruin a combustor. This was more common on some of the older stove designs, 25+ years ago, when manufacturers were scrambling to add catalytic combustors to their pre-EPA stove designs, in a poorly-engineered attempt to meet then-new emissions regulations. I ruined several combustors in my 20+ year old Jotuls, myself.

Fast-forward a few decades, the warranty on a new BK catalytic combustor is 10 years, and folks typically get 10,000 - 12,000 hours out of them. The savings in wood usage, over a non-cat, make it well worth the replacement cost at 10,000 - 12,000 hours, at a typical cost under $200. Moreover, the catalytic combustor a much wider range of burn rates (a burn time over 40 hours on a single load is possible), due to the fact that they can remain in active secondary burn at less than half the temperature of any non-cat (450F vs. 1100F).

That said, if you're set on non-cat, I'm not trying to talk you out of it. I just want to make sure that you have the correct information, before making your decision, as much of the information you will find spewed from manufacturers and retailers of non-cat stoves is dead wrong. They like to cite issues of stove manufacturers two or three decades past, when talking about catalytic stoves, ignoring the obvious advantages of a modern catalytic stove.

Non-cat advantages:
1. You can burn anything, right down to lead-painted wood, there is no catalyst to poison.
2. They can sometimes offer higher maximum burn rates, as there is no catalyst to over-fire. Of course, they also exhibit the possibility of run-away, under this condition.
3. You do not need to ever consider replacing a combustor, but I read so many stories here of burned out tubes and baffles, I wonder if this is really an advantage.

Cat advantages:
1. Wider range of burn rates.
2. Longer burn times (30 - 40 hours vs. 8 - 12 hours).
3. Lower emissions
4. Higher LHV efficiency (most folks run their stoves near LHV 90%+ of the time).
5. Better control. Cat stoves can be shut down much tighter than non-cats, and don't suffer from the "run away" stove syndrome we see many experience with non-cats.

Folks can debate the worth of each of these advantages I list here, or their likelihood (eg. runaway), but only you know which of these factors you're looking to exploit (or willing to endure).

 

[Cluttermagnet]

I'm pretty open minded, really. Thanks for a well-reasoned and patient explanation.
I definitely see merit on both sides. Matter of fact, though, the idea of really long
burns is highly appealing! I have an old stove and have to rebuild the fire nearly every
time (every day). It would be great to start from a nice bed of coals. Only rarely do I
see that...

 

[begreen]

A bit of clarification. Some cats have better emission specs than non-cats, some do not. Baffle designs vary. Some can burn out, but most do not for at least many years. Some are cast refractory or firebrick, no burnout there. Cats will need to be replaced regularly. How frequently depends on on stove design and how much wood is burned. If burning 24/7 in a colder climate then 3 yrs is not untypical. Operator design is the biggest variable. A poor operator can mess up the best stove.

 

[Highbeam]

I'm pretty open minded, really. Thanks for a well-reasoned and patient explanation.
I definitely see merit on both sides. Matter of fact, though, the idea of really long
burns is highly appealing! I have an old stove and have to rebuild the fire nearly every
time (every day). It would be great to start from a nice bed of coals. Only rarely do I
see that...

Long burn times are extremely important to someone who wants to heat their home all day with wood but isn't home all day to feed the stove. I switched from a non-cat to a cat stove in my house and was rewarded with even home temperatures, less loading, and less wood consumption. I also run the stove at low output all the time since there is no need to "catch up" warming the house back up after the fire in the noncat had gone out 12 hours ago.

Lots of the burning season you might only need a little bit of heat and the same stove is capable of low output or high output. Non-cats can't do that very effectively since they are always burning hot in order to burn cleanly.

I also own a non-cat in my shop. An NC30 which is a fine stove. I burn all kinds of junk in that stove and run it at maximum output only trying to "catch up" a shop building from 40 to 70 degrees. Owning both, I would much rather have a good cat stove in the home.

Honestly, as far as EPA particulate ratings, my NC30 is rated to burn much cleaner than my cat stove. But clean burning is not related to high efficiency, the cat stove is much more efficient.

 

[begreen]

It will depend on your climate zone. @BrotherBart has been heating the longest with the 30NC here and can provide you with some real world reload times for VA. If you need >10-12hrs between loadings then a cat stove may be a preferred option. Most importantly will it fit?

 

[Cluttermagnet]

***News Flash*** ...Clutter Finally Gets His Measurements Right...

Guys- With some embarrassment I must say that I screwed up my fireplace measurements
pretty badly. I have no idea where I ever came up with that 41 inch figure! Having just
re-measured that fireplace and written it down as I should have in the first place, I can
report to you that the actual lintel height is 34 inches and the height of the brick platform
brings the opening size down to about 27 inches. The brick platform is three courses high...

So that's only 34 inches lintel height above the flagstone hearth, also a vertically narrow
cavity- the actual fireplace opening is about 27 inches. Only a 'mini' type stove could reasonably
be expected to fit in there, but I believe I need a a 60,000+ BTU class stove. So lets take this
thread back in the direction I started it: I have a working though inefficient 3 cu ft wood stove
with rear exit that sits out on an extended hearth in front of the fireplace. I'd like to replace
it with a more efficient stove (of any type really) that sits in the same place on the hearth.
I'm open to suggestions, any modern stove, really. I'm pretty sure my situation dictates rear
exit only. Top exit like with the NC30 isn't going to cut it, I don't believe. The 34 inch lintel
height is the overriding factor to consider. A shame, really, as I like the NC30. It has a good
reputation and is not real expensive.

My final thoughts- this is on the first floor of a wood frame house, the floor being standard
2x12's on 16in centers. I'd like to keep the weight down, and am thinking in terms of welded
steel construction. I'm a little uncomfortable with the thought of the added weight of
soapstone construction and such. I'd be way more comfortable with 300 lb+/-, not at all
comfortable with stoves weighing more like 600 lb... The stove sits about 1/3 of the way
out along the span of those floor joists, not quite at mid-span... I and an unlucky friend
are going to have to personally move and leverage into place whatever weight there is.
I'm in my sixties now- light build, still pretty healthy...

Right now and 'on paper', the Buck 261 is looking pretty good and is my standard of
comparison... although it has those 'shop stove' looks, it would be an improvement
over what I have now, not to mention the higher efficiency...

Rear exit changes everything.

BTW I see the Buck 261 is only rated 32,200 BTU/Hr and weighs 492 lb.
In the manual it says 11,800 to 40,900 BTU/Hr.
What I have right now is very similar, and may have about the same output.
It is doing the job, however inefficiently. I doubt it weighs quite that much. It's welded
steel and isn't up to the present 1/4in standards. More like 3/16in.

 

[begreen]

Look at the Woodstock Ideal Steel. Can you post a picture of the fireplace?

 

[Highbeam]

Not sure why you like the Buck so much but it seems that you really want it. Go for it. 300# for a stove is very light. That's just one fat chick. If your floor can't handle more than that then you have bigger problems. What if you had two fat chicks dancing together!

Underneath this floor in the basement/crawlspace is there an opportunity to add a beam under the 2x12 joists? I did this under my hearth to help ease my mind and prevent long term sagging.

It's not just the weight of the stove but the hearth, fuel load, and maybe one or two fat chicks backing their rumps up to the hot stove to get warm. Maybe even dancing!

 

[begreen]

Heaven forbid that your twin brother-in-laws come to visit.

 

[Cluttermagnet]

Yeah, I know- I worry too much. Matter of fact, there is a spinet style upright
piano across the room, hugging the wall opposite the fireplace. So far, in 55
years, that piano has not fallen through.

 

[Cluttermagnet]

Not sure why you like the Buck so much but it seems that you really want it. Go for it. 300# for a stove is very light. That's just one fat chick. If your floor can't handle more than that then you have bigger problems. What if you had two fat chicks dancing together!

Underneath this floor in the basement/crawlspace is there an opportunity to add a beam under the 2x12 joists? I did this under my hearth to help ease my mind and prevent long term sagging.

It's not just the weight of the stove but the hearth, fuel load, and maybe one or two fat chicks backing their rumps up to the hot stove to get warm. Maybe even dancing!

While it is physically possible to put a floor jack under there, it would end up
right in front of the downstairs fireplace, kind of mars the view. I store my
splits right outside, so there's less weight on the hearth. No fat chicks these
days, only a skinny little cat. I bring wood in mostly using square 10gal buckets.
The buckets are kept back a ways, so they are stressing different floor joists.

Actually, the floor is pretty stiff. Underlayment is real plywood like they still
did a lot of in the 60's. And a real Oak hardwood floor sits atop that. There is
no sense of any squeaks, give, or shimmy on any of the floors. Seems tight.
Joists are only spanning 12-14ft as I remember. I'd have to measure...
Yeah, I worry too much...