Hello I am new to the forum. I am looking at getting a viking bio 200 with the pellmax boiler from varmebaronen. Anyways, I live in ME and would like go know what to use as a buffer tank? I am leaving the oil burner as backup. Originally I was thinking about a heat pump water heater but after reading reviews not really sure. Was hoping to get off oil and pellets in the summer.
Summer time water heater and buffer tank
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I used an HTP 80 gal. tank with no heat exchanger. Works great, I can go to idle on the boiler for an hour or 2 before the next zone valve cycles before it turns off on high temp shut down.
PassionForFire&Water
Minister of Fire
[quotkZL_Damon, post: 1675963, member: 27567"]I used an HTP 80 gal. tank with no heat exchanger. Works great, I can go to idle on the boiler for an hour or 2 before the next zone valve cycles before it turns off on high temp shut down.[/
What kind did you use and what was the cist?
What kind did you use and what was the cist?
[quoIe="PassionForFire&Water, post: 1676087, member: 16860"]Efficiency Maine has a $5,000 rebate for a pellet boiler system
I believe the requirement is to have pellet storage for 2 weeks for the system to qualify[/quote]
Yes i know, thanks for the info!
I believe the requirement is to have pellet storage for 2 weeks for the system to qualify[/quote]
Yes i know, thanks for the info!
I have an HTP GL-80 non ASME version like seen here: http://www.htproducts.com/literature/glbrochure.pdf
If I had to pay full price for that, I would not have gotten one... I would have either made one from a 420# propane tank or not used one at all. I found it for $300 in Uncle Henry's down in MA. My buddy had to run down to the area so it was a quick day trip to pick it up.
I know most manufacturers suggest a buffer tank, but it really depends on how you run your house. Kedel advertises no need for a buffer tank, period. The regulation for firing rate can be sped up or slowed down so the boiler reacts quicker or slower so it won't overshoot output temperatures, etc. They also have a curve you can build that I know lots of Kedel owners have been using. For an extra $30, you can hook up an extra temperature sensor and put it in your house. You can build a curve from say 69-71*F and limit the firing rate the the house zone is always calling for heat, but the boiler will regulate firing rate based on house temperature. This allows your boiler to run longer without a buffer tank, it just varies firing rate (and thus, temperature going to your house) based on the current temp in the house. This sensor is sensitive within 0.1*F so you can easily get all 7 points built in within a 2*F curve. There is also a time average you can vary so it won't panic if someone opens a door and the sensor gets a blast of cold air, etc.
On top of that, there is a seperate loop for DHW heating, so if there is a call to make DHW, it will change it's settings to something more aggressive to make your hot water. When the water is made, it will return to the slower house heating settings.
Just food for thought. I don't have much experience with other residential boilers than my Kedel, but I did extensive research before making my purchase. I had never heard of Pellmax until now. I just watched the video and my first reaction was it was LOUD! It's as loud as my oil boiler, my pellet boiler is virtually silent. All I hear is the clinking of the pellets falling in. I saw on smokelessheat.com that the unit costs about $6300 when you add the boiler and burner together. That is roughly the same price as Kedel, Harman, and Windhagers I believe.
Just so you know, you have to use Efficiency Maine's own installers to qualify for the rebate. Even though I hit the retroactive date, I did my own install so I was ineligible.... bummer, the rebate would have paid for the install plus some extra too.
This is what I use with my Pellergy set up.
(broken link removed to http://www.newhorizonstore.com/Products/96-tank-hot-water-storage.aspx)
(broken link removed to http://www.newhorizonstore.com/Products/96-tank-hot-water-storage.aspx)
Requirements for $5000 rebate in Maine... apparently you DON'T need 2 weeks of storage if you keep your back up system in place (oil/propane).
Biomass heating systems
are fueled by pellets of sawdust, wood products, and other biomass materials pressed into manageable shapes and sizes.
1. The system must include a bulk fill system that would provide continuous heat without human intervention for 2 weeks (estimated at 1 ton pellet capacity), or have a permanently
installed back-up heating system (electric, oil, natural gas) that provides continuous heat to the home if the biomass heating system runs out of pellets,
and
2. The new system or existing back-up system (when one exists) must provide heat in areas of plumbing, which will maintain the temperature of at least 50 degrees Fahrenheit for an extended period of time (2 weeks or longer) without human intervention,
and
3. Meet applicable Federal, state, and local requirements, including but not limited to emissions limits, nuisance limits, and siting limits,
and
4. The property appraisal (if required by the PowerSaver program) must reflect that the heating system has market acceptance within the subject’s marketplace,
and
5. The system relies upon a fuel source which is readily obtainable within the subject’s geographic area.
Biomass Furnaces or Boilers:
To meet PowerSaver energy efficient standards, biomass furnaces or boilers must be:
1. Listed as a White Tag pellet model on EPA’s List of Qualified Cleaner Hydronic Heaters at (broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html.This) ensures that these heaters have been tested by an EPA accredited laboratory using test method M28 WHH
*, and reviewed and qualified by EPA, or
2. A European biomass boiler that has been certified under EN 303-5 1999, Class 3
*, or higher, as evidence by the European certifying agency's compliance label attached to the unit, and
*
Note: Efficiencies calculated using European method EN 303-5 test method are not comparable to EPA's M28 WHH efficiencies. EN 303-5 calculates efficiencies based on maximum outputs whereas M28 WHH represents the efficiency of a boiler over the entire heating year. HUD reserves the right to revise the eligibility of all biomass heating types, or modify the minimum standards to newer standards, based on its consultation with the Environmental Protection Agency, Department of Energy, and others.
3. Installed according to the manufacturer's recommendations including but not limited to chimney height, proximity to other structures, sizing, and proper thermal storage. This applies to both White Tag and EN 303-5 boilers,
and
4. Aligned with EPA requirements for a certification of the destruction of the old wood-burning hydronic heater when the new hydronic heater will replace an existing hydronic heater that does not meet standards described in the all bullets above.
Note: HUD does not require destruction when existing unit will be kept to provide back-up heat in order to maintain home heat at minimum 50 degrees Fahrenheit for an extended period of time.
Biomass heating systems
are fueled by pellets of sawdust, wood products, and other biomass materials pressed into manageable shapes and sizes.
1. The system must include a bulk fill system that would provide continuous heat without human intervention for 2 weeks (estimated at 1 ton pellet capacity), or have a permanently
installed back-up heating system (electric, oil, natural gas) that provides continuous heat to the home if the biomass heating system runs out of pellets,
and
2. The new system or existing back-up system (when one exists) must provide heat in areas of plumbing, which will maintain the temperature of at least 50 degrees Fahrenheit for an extended period of time (2 weeks or longer) without human intervention,
and
3. Meet applicable Federal, state, and local requirements, including but not limited to emissions limits, nuisance limits, and siting limits,
and
4. The property appraisal (if required by the PowerSaver program) must reflect that the heating system has market acceptance within the subject’s marketplace,
and
5. The system relies upon a fuel source which is readily obtainable within the subject’s geographic area.
Biomass Furnaces or Boilers:
To meet PowerSaver energy efficient standards, biomass furnaces or boilers must be:
1. Listed as a White Tag pellet model on EPA’s List of Qualified Cleaner Hydronic Heaters at (broken link removed to http://www.epa.gov/burnwise/owhhlist.html.This) ensures that these heaters have been tested by an EPA accredited laboratory using test method M28 WHH
*, and reviewed and qualified by EPA, or
2. A European biomass boiler that has been certified under EN 303-5 1999, Class 3
*, or higher, as evidence by the European certifying agency's compliance label attached to the unit, and
*
Note: Efficiencies calculated using European method EN 303-5 test method are not comparable to EPA's M28 WHH efficiencies. EN 303-5 calculates efficiencies based on maximum outputs whereas M28 WHH represents the efficiency of a boiler over the entire heating year. HUD reserves the right to revise the eligibility of all biomass heating types, or modify the minimum standards to newer standards, based on its consultation with the Environmental Protection Agency, Department of Energy, and others.
3. Installed according to the manufacturer's recommendations including but not limited to chimney height, proximity to other structures, sizing, and proper thermal storage. This applies to both White Tag and EN 303-5 boilers,
and
4. Aligned with EPA requirements for a certification of the destruction of the old wood-burning hydronic heater when the new hydronic heater will replace an existing hydronic heater that does not meet standards described in the all bullets above.
Note: HUD does not require destruction when existing unit will be kept to provide back-up heat in order to maintain home heat at minimum 50 degrees Fahrenheit for an extended period of time.
Yes kedel Is great but dealers here are selling a 4000 dollar boiler for 12k. Highway robbery if you ask me. That is what I originally looked into however dealers are 3 plus weeks to just get a price. I will be using a qualified energy me installer. Thanks for all the info.
Those prices are estimated installed prices on their website, trust me... they are not $12000 for the boiler alone. Froling and MESys charge those prices for the boiler/burner alone however.
Luv2burnPellets
Member
I installed a Rinnai tankless instant hot water system which runs on propane. This allows me to completely shut down the backup oil burner so I don't need to burn a drop of oil. Way more efficient than to maintain hot water temperature in the oil fired burner year round. The Rinnai is super efficient and only runs when hot water is called for. And since I had to put in propane tanks for the Rinnai , I swapped out the electric range oven for a gas oven, which the wife loves. I also put in a propane gas log in the sun room, which we can now use year round. Next up is to install a standby generator, since we now have the propane to use.
Two estimates at 18-20k for kedel and 3 ton hopper installed with indirect tank. Ridiculous if you ask me, even with the rebate. How did you do yours so cheap?
Do you have a complicated set up perhaps? I would certainly call another dealer, I feel like they might be taking advantage of the new rebate if your install is simple.
This is straight from their website:
Big Bag Auger
The starting installed price includes the installed boiler, 3 ton hopper and auger. Starting costs assume straight forward installation, harder installations add costs, see possible additional expenses below. Price does not include any parts that might be necessary to make boiler delivery possible from the outside.
Just so you know, you pay quite a bit for that hopper it seems. Look at the alternative options for the "Weekender" which hold about 700lbs of pellets... $4300 less expensive:
Weekender
Starting installed boiler price includes: boiler, burner, 700 lb hopper, touch screen controller, shunt valve, temperature well pre-assembly of boiler, electrical controls, pump, isolation flange, air vent, pressure relief valve, pressure and temperature gage, diversion valve. Does not include fill valve, low water cut off, expansion tank. Starting costs assume straight forward installation, harder installations add costs, see possible additional expenses below.
This is straight from their website:
Big Bag Auger
The starting installed price includes the installed boiler, 3 ton hopper and auger. Starting costs assume straight forward installation, harder installations add costs, see possible additional expenses below. Price does not include any parts that might be necessary to make boiler delivery possible from the outside.
- Kedel-54 with 3 Ton Cloth Hopper……………….$13,200
- Kedel-68 with 3 Ton Cloth Hopper……………….$14,100
- Kedel-102 with 3 Ton Cloth Hopper………………$15,700
- Additional Installation Expenses………………$0 to $2,500
- Indirect Water Heater……………………………$2,000 to $2,500
- Chimney Liner……………………………………$1,000 to $1,500
- Cloth Hopper Upgrade………………………….$363 – $1267
Just so you know, you pay quite a bit for that hopper it seems. Look at the alternative options for the "Weekender" which hold about 700lbs of pellets... $4300 less expensive:
Weekender
Starting installed boiler price includes: boiler, burner, 700 lb hopper, touch screen controller, shunt valve, temperature well pre-assembly of boiler, electrical controls, pump, isolation flange, air vent, pressure relief valve, pressure and temperature gage, diversion valve. Does not include fill valve, low water cut off, expansion tank. Starting costs assume straight forward installation, harder installations add costs, see possible additional expenses below.
- Kedel-54 Weekender………………………..$9,900
- Kedel-68 Weekender………………………..$10,800
- Kedel-102 Weekender………………………$11,400
- Additional Installation Expenses……….$0,000 to $2,500
- Indirect Water Heater…………………….$2,000 to $2,500
- Chimney Liner……………………………$1,000 to $1,500
Need a 2nd chimney if i want to leave my oil system in place.
Water heater for summer because I want to get off pellets and oil.
My current guy is 5-6k cheaper than just the kedel boiler alone.
Thanks
If you do an indirect tank, you can use a Dehumidifier/Heat pump to make your hotwater during the cooling season. I got a 6,000btu/hr heat pump from a guy on craigslist that has several left over from the old Hallowell Heat Pump company from Bangor. $350 plus about $30 in fittings lets me make hotwater for 2 of us for about $0.75/day all while keeping my downstairs at 70*F even on the hottest days last year.
tomfrommaine or tomofmaine (the fellow from Hot & Cold) also sells older Nyle units that were made in Bangor. They are the same size, but use 220v vs mine which uses 110v. Recovery time is slow, I wish I had a 40 gallon heater. I installed one at my friends house with hi 41 gallon Amtrol and he has never run out of hot water. My wife however... insists on 15 minute long showers that would scald the skin off any normal human being... so if I take a shower directly after her I have to be REAL quick. If I wait 30 min to an hour I'm perfectly fine.
What I started to do last summer is just stagger our showers so she could cook herself like a lobster whenever she wants. I just shower at night and she showers in the morning, problem solved.
By they way, you can power vent a Kedel if you don't have a chimney. That's what I'm going to be doing at my grandmothers house since she has the same problem you do. The Kedel has a curve built in that you can change for minimum, medium, and maximum firing rate for fan speed for the power vent fan so you can balance your draft.
Thanks had a pv in my old condo and hated it. Think I want a new heat pump if I go that route. Like the idea of being of oil/pellet in summer.
There are fantastic rebates for them I think still... I helped a friend install a new GE hybrid unit that he ended up paying about $500 for after all rebates/incentives! J
How did it work for him. Looking at shutting down off oil/pellets in summer. So this would only run then. Can this act as a store the rest of the time for the pellet boiler? Thanks
He likes it, but sadly it will not work with your pellet boiler as it does not have a heat exchanger in it. It has I think 4500w of electrical back up if the area the unit is set up in gets too cold from the heat pump. This also can kick in for "hybrid" mode if you are having an issue like I have occasionally: high water usage. The electric heaters will back the heat pump up if the upper tank temperature starts getting too cold.
However, if the space the heat pump is collecting heat from a space heated by pellets, you would still be doing pretty good. The heat pump is taking the heat out of the air the pellets made and then boosts it into your DHW so it's still a pretty good win. I have not done the math, but I doubt it's much more expensive to go this route in the winter vs a standard indirect water heater from the pellets alone. It would be a lot easier if you were buying all new like you are.
If you do go indirect heat, I can not praise the SuperStor SS hotwater heaters (now made by HTP, and called the Ultra series) enough. Mine has been in my house 25 years. When I tookt he fittings off to sweat in the new fittings for the heat pump I looked inside and it was clean as could be. They are almost a lifetime hot water heater for about double the price of an Amtrol boiler mate. My buddies boilermate only lasted 7-8 years at his house to boot. He would have already paid for a SuperStor.
I have the GE geospring heat pump HW. I bought it for $1000 at Lowes. Comes with a $300 federal tax credit, and I believe there is now a $300 Efficiency Maine credit as well. The Geospring works great, and it does what it says. I watched my Energymanager thru CMP and it really didn't use much electricity when on the heat pump setting. I figured it'll pay for itself in 2 seasons at most. I figure anyone with an indirect DHW, would be better off using the GE year round rather than having to run an oil burner or anything else during the summer.
Bought it today for 900 at lowes, $300 rebate. Think federal is over. Not a bad deal considering regular electric is 500. Thanks
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