switching to natural gas due to new line on street.....

[myhearthisonfuego]

So like the title says need some suggestions on what i should and shouldnt do. I currently have an enviro m55 insert that was put in last year in september, and I was using it in conjunction with my propane hot water baseboard heating. I am wondering since I will be converting to natural gas due to a new line the town is putting in this summer/fall, what should i do with my insert? Should I keep it and just get my moneys worth out of it, or sell it and place a gas insert in the empty space? anyone have experience?

 

[mrjohneel]

I'm in the same situation - I'm getting gas installed next month to replace oil. I'm keeping my Harman p35i insert just because you never know what will happen to energy prices and it's good to have two options. That's my current thinking.

 

[UpStateNY]

The pellet stove may still save you money if you close a lot of extra room doors and just heat a few rooms near your pellet stove nice and warm like 74. You would be really comfortable near your pellet stove and your not heating a lot of extra square feet. Then again natural gas BTUs are really cheap. Its a problem I wish I had to solve.

 

[TimfromMA]

My house's main heating source is oil. There is no natural gas line on my street. Since we bought the pellet stove, the only thing the oil furnace does is provide hot water. I would definitely consider replacing our oil furnace with NG if it ever became available.

 

[moey]

Its there might as well keep it.

 

[stovelark]

Oh nice problem to have. Agree with keeping to have, in time of need. If you sell it, you'll get about half of the new cost likely and still have to buy the new gas insert too?? That's putting everything in one basket..... I'd keep it, space heat the area.

 

[ScotL]

The pellet stove may still save you money if you close a lot of extra room doors and just heat a few rooms near your pellet stove nice and warm like 74. You would be really comfortable near your pellet stove and your not heating a lot of extra square feet. Then again natural gas BTUs are really cheap. Its a problem I wish I had to solve.

NG BTUs might be cheap right now, but the NG price was very volatile last winter. Having both options may protect you from that.
Using natural gas to provide the base load for the electrical grid was a terrible idea.

 

[salmonhunter]

here in moncton newbrunswick we had the natual gas pipeline come through our city and they were offering free or very cheap hookups. I almost went from oil to NG but decided not to bother. Im pretty glad I didnt because a friend did it and he says he paid more for NG then he did for oil. My sister has NG also and says its not as cheap as they had expected. This may just be in our area but look into it first IMO

 

[TimfromMA]

here in moncton newbrunswick we had the natual gas pipeline come through our city and they were offering free or very cheap hookups. I almost went from oil to NG but decided not to bother. Im pretty glad I didnt because a friend did it and he says he paid more for NG then he did for oil. My sister has NG also and says its not as cheap as they had expected. This may just be in our area but look into it first IMO

If the hookup was free, I would have done it but used it only as a backup.

 

[1kzwoman]

I have ng forced air and a Harman wood stove. Love the wood heat, a whole different type of heat. NG I use in shouldering season
as my stove is a 24/7 best burn (Exception).
I can close off unused rooms as noted with other posts.
I find the option of a ng backup wonderful if I have to be away from home for an extended period.
I suggest keeping both, until you find out how you like to use them.
NG beat propane hands down IMHO

 

[iron stove]

I had a new NG line extended down my street 3 years ago. I switched from oil to NG 2 years ago. I save 50% based on 10 years of oil use. I also have a neighbor, who switched this past October based on my recommendation, and is amazed she might pay for her new equipment within 5 years !
I STILL burn pellets. Its a great backup. There ARE NG shortages during extreme periods ! But I have no problems if I don't run the stove for a day or two.

 

[BrotherBart]

Keep it. Options are a good thing with heating. Or anything else for that matter. Especially if they are already paid for and installed when "whoops!" happens. And it will.

 

[1kzwoman]

Keep it. Options are a good thing with heating. Or anything else for that matter. Especially if they are already paid for and installed when "whoops!" happens. And it will.

I agree in the old house had ng only..went a week without eletric service do to freak spring storm. Luckily it was in high 30s at night so we camped in our 0 rated sleeping bags.
So in new house I added the wood stove and
this year electric power failed again, for 3 days at 0 night temps. Much more fun to add a log and watch the fir

 

[BrotherBart]

I agree in the old house had ng only..went a week without eletric service do to freak spring storm. Luckily it was in high 30s at night so we camped in our 0 rated sleeping bags.
So in new house I added the wood stove and
this year electric power failed again, for 3 days at 0 night temps. Much more fun to add a log and watch the fir

Yeah but he is weighing keeping a pellet stove that needs electric power to work. NG was a great backup 50 years ago when you heated with it with the ugly little heaters in each room that didn't need electricity. Now it sucks in a power outage just like all of the central heating alternatives except cord wood stoves since it is used in central heating systems that need electrons to blow the heat into the house.

If he has a gas insert it would be marginally better than nothing without the blower running. But would be putting the sleeping bags close to the insert.

 

[Pellet-King]

I had a new NG line extended down my street 3 years ago. I switched from oil to NG 2 years ago. I save 50% based on 10 years of oil use. I also have a neighbor, who switched this past October based on my recommendation, and is amazed she might pay for her new equipment within 5 years !
I STILL burn pellets. Its a great backup. There ARE NG shortages during extreme periods ! But I have no problems if I don't run the stove for a day or two.

Iron stove pm me I'm interested in converting to NG and what the cost's would be, have NG on my street now

 

[CaptSpiff]

NG BTUs might be cheap right now, but the NG price was very volatile last winter. Having both options may protect you from that.
Using natural gas to provide the base load for the electrical grid was a terrible idea.

Definitely agree on having diversity in winter heating.

This past winter when NG flows into New England peaked the Electric Producers were all hit with Operational Flow Orders and had to switch to Oil or whatever. This was to protect the NG heating consumer. But NG prices still spiked, and so did Electric when those plants that could not swap to expensive oil came offline. Folks in N.E. don't know how close they came to rotating regional wide blackouts.

The good thing is several entities are permitting and building new pipelines from Penn to NJ, NY & NE, but don't think for a moment the local heating consumer is the reason. The real Golden Goose is the LNG transfer facilities that will load & ship our LNG to a very gas hungry Europe. Projections are for approx 20-40% NG price climb as the spread narrows between US & Euro.

For anecdotal, read the recent post from an Aussie who mentions it already happening down under:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/purdy-stoves-part-2.127780/#post-1721694

So bottom line,... stay diversified my friend.

 

[Pellet-King]

Cheapest way is keep the oil forced air i dont use and keep burning pellets.............

 

[rona]

So like the title says need some suggestions on what i should and shouldnt do. I currently have an enviro m55 insert that was put in last year in september, and I was using it in conjunction with my propane hot water baseboard heating. I am wondering since I will be converting to natural gas due to a new line the town is putting in this summer/fall, what should i do with my insert? Should I keep it and just get my moneys worth out of it, or sell it and place a gas insert in the empty space? anyone have experience?

Its been my experience that once you are dependent on Nat Gas they own you. It sounds cheap until we get in the dead of winter and the price jumps because of demand. Keep the ace in the hole so you have a choice. As the new EPA rules ruin the coal industry the electric companies will switch to nat gas . Then you have both your furnace and electricity fueled by nat gas. What happens if there is a shortage or a large gas line breaks? Think about that for a while as it would be a good target for terrorists wouldn't it?

 

[BrotherBart]

Think about that for a while as it would be a good target for terrorists wouldn't it?

"Here is what we do guys. We blow up their gas wells and bring them to their knees."

"Excellent idea. How many producing gas wells do they have."

"Just 482,822."

"Say what!??"

 

[Pete Zahria]

NG is great in the summer for heating your hot water, and for heat on cool spring/fall evenings.
But the winter rate more than doubles here.. Still cheaper than elec/oil, and would be a lot cheaper
in the winter if the rate stayed constant.. but it doesn't.

Dan

 

[urkiddin]

If you remember back about 25 years ago oil was about 82 cents a gallon until demand increased. What's stopping NG from going the same way?

 

[ScotL]

"Here is what we do guys. We blow up their gas wells and bring them to their knees."

"Excellent idea. How many producing gas wells do they have."

"Just 482,822."

"Say what!??"

The pipelines are the vulnerable points.

 

[ScotL]

Definitely agree on having diversity in winter heating.

This past winter when NG flows into New England peaked the Electric Producers were all hit with Operational Flow Orders and had to switch to Oil or whatever. This was to protect the NG heating consumer. But NG prices still spiked, and so did Electric when those plants that could not swap to expensive oil came offline. Folks in N.E. don't know how close they came to rotating regional wide blackouts.

The good thing is several entities are permitting and building new pipelines from Penn to NJ, NY & NE, but don't think for a moment the local heating consumer is the reason. The real Golden Goose is the LNG transfer facilities that will load & ship our LNG to a very gas hungry Europe. Projections are for approx 20-40% NG price climb as the spread narrows between US & Euro.

For anecdotal, read the recent post from an Aussie who mentions it already happening down under:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/purdy-stoves-part-2.127780/#post-1721694

So bottom line,... stay diversified my friend.

It would make much more sense to use natural gas as a filler to compensate for peak demand periods and nuclear to supply the base load. The "new" thorium technology is very promising - and interesting to read about. It's not really new but was abandoned for the uranium process because uranium could help build the nuclear weapon arsenal at the time. With all the advantages to thorium (much more efficient, much less rare than uranium or plutonium, and inert after only 30 years), it's quite an exciting technology. The United States used to be the leader in nuclear energy but now it has fallen by the wayside.
The problem though is nuclear energy is even cheaper than coal to operate and cheap energy is critical to a robust economy. Big government thrives in misery and not so much during prosperity. Big government controls the regulations that can kill advancements in thorium reactors. I don't know if we'll ever see our electric rates return to the levels they sustained for the last several decades. I certainly hope so.
China and Norway are racing to develop thorium reactors.
I've read some reports that claim the thorium fuel cycle is more costly and would require taxpayer subsidies. If true, that would kill it right there. More research is definitely called for. If China can figure it out, we can too.

 

[moey]

If you remember back about 25 years ago oil was about 82 cents a gallon until demand increased. What's stopping NG from going the same way?

The lack of a cartel OPEC...

 

[CaptSpiff]

"Here is what we do guys. We blow up their gas wells and bring them to their knees."
"Excellent idea. How many producing gas wells do they have."
"Just 482,822."
"Say what!??"

Yup,... and only about 5 supply pipelines into NE.

Interrupt flow on any 1 and NG prices climb above #2 oil.
Interrupt flow on any 2 and it's lights out in NE.

We really need to remind ourselves that it was low energy costs that allowed us to become the dominant economic power in the world, and gave us a middle class standard of living that's still the envy of the world. Deciding now to switch to high cost alternative fuels because it makes us feel good will have significant consequences for our grandchildren. Not ignoring the potential climate risks, but wish there was a more 2-sided discussion on reasonable paths forward.

Back to OP Nat Gas switch options:
Definitely do the Propane to Nat Gas boiler conversion. Don't use the Boiler to heat your DHW. Get a free-standing DHW heater. Do decide now all the appliances you'll need stub-outs for (Dryer, Stove, etc). It's cheaper for the plumber to install them now. Then sit back and enjoy the lower cost of convenient central heating while it lasts. You'll always have the Enviro M-55 as a backup. And if the forecasts are correct about NG costs, you'll be back to saving money with the M-55 in 5 or 6 years.