Tearing out Prefab and installing ZC from outside chase?
- Thread starter billfred
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Yes, it is possible, but sometimes not easy due to different opening size or fascia construction requirements with the new ZC fireplace.
What make/model fireplace is currently installed?
What make/model fireplace is currently installed?
Not sure, that would take some research and a look at the construction behind the brick. Some ZC fireplaces require metal studs above the opening. Alternatively, it looks like there is the option to install an insert into this fireplace. That would be less expensive.
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just got back from another fireplace store. They are saying the Lopi 1750i might be an option as an insert.
They are sending someone out to take a look. They also weren’t concerned about removing some outer metal and blocking the vents on the prefab. I guess I will see what the installer says.
They are sending someone out to take a look. They also weren’t concerned about removing some outer metal and blocking the vents on the prefab. I guess I will see what the installer says.
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Where did you find that an insert was an option? I couldnt find anything in the manual stating that. Did they issue an adendim to the manual?
If they are not concerned about blocking the vents dont let thdm do the job. Even if the fireplace allows an insert to be installed in it you cannot block those vents.
It shows up in a couple places. One on the UL label and then in the tips at the end of the manual.
![[Hearth.com] Tearing out Prefab and installing ZC from outside chase?](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/220/220850-03ea19a69a5290e96046bb5bf3893dba.jpg?hash=hE1sjIsGiH "[Hearth.com] Tearing out Prefab and installing ZC from outside chase?")
![[Hearth.com] Tearing out Prefab and installing ZC from outside chase?](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/220/220851-105fbea36931e8ad6b28fd10b10c45bd.jpg?hash=XE7G4VK9p- "[Hearth.com] Tearing out Prefab and installing ZC from outside chase?")
You might also want to check out a Quadrafire dealer. Heat 'n Glo and Quad are both owned by HHT.
Ok i missed the statement in the troubleshooting section that implies there are approved inserts. I did see the other statement which i took to mean do not use a fireplace insert. If they have a list of approved inserts then great that would clearly be an option.
I've got a couple installers looking into installing a Lopi 1750i or the Regency i1200 (one is a Quad dealer).
My prefab does have the heat exchanges tubes, they would definitely have to remove those just to get the liner in place.
https://i.imgur.com/fUWqs1n.jpg
My prefab does have the heat exchanges tubes, they would definitely have to remove those just to get the liner in place.
https://i.imgur.com/fUWqs1n.jpg
You need to get in touch with heat n glow. Or the parent company hearth and home to get a list of approved inserts. And instructions on how you can modify the box to install them.
I have never seen a ZC fireplace maker specify acceptable brands of insert that it has tested. Have you? Normally it will be the insert manufacturer that does the specifying. The label says - Do not use a fireplace insert or other products not specified for use with this product. Lopi does specify their insert for installation in Heat n' Glo, but that is why I suggest speaking with a Quad dealer which is also an HHT product.
If they dont specify how would they possibly have tested it? The fireplace and the insert would have to be tested together for the approval to be valid in any way. The manual clearly says an approved insert.
Squisher
Minister of Fire
It's a conglomeration of different standards that don't line up with older factory builts up here. My head spins just looking at it all. By following code it isn't allowed in Canada. The only allowance for it comes from statements in manufacturers instructions of the factory built and the insert. They are looking to sell, that's why.
The inserts on the market today, no matter which ones, are certified to the insert standard, ULC S628.
The only parts and pieces that are certified with a factory built fireplace have to be certified with that fireplace to ULC S610. What insert manufacturer tests their insert in a factorybuilt to see if the factory built can support its weight? How much can you take out of a factory built and still have it Code compliant? The liner standard ULC S635 and ULC S640 don’t allow liners to be installed into a factory built chimney to upgrade them to a different standard.
The CSA B365 has not allowed inserts into factory built fireplace in the 2010 and the 2017 versions.
The building code requires ULC S629 chimney on solid fuel appliances. It allows ULC s604 with the clause in 9.22 stating Fireplaces can use the chimney they are certified with, any ULC S629 on the factory builts that are looking to add an insert? If you are going to install a insert into a factory built fireplace, I'd want a letter from the factory built manufacturer and the insert manufacturer saying that it was ok. Otherwise I'd never consider it.
Everything above applies only to Canada. I know that isn't relevant to the OP but may be to others who are reading this. And may shed some light onto the slippery slope that installing inserts into factory builts really is.
The inserts on the market today, no matter which ones, are certified to the insert standard, ULC S628.
The only parts and pieces that are certified with a factory built fireplace have to be certified with that fireplace to ULC S610. What insert manufacturer tests their insert in a factorybuilt to see if the factory built can support its weight? How much can you take out of a factory built and still have it Code compliant? The liner standard ULC S635 and ULC S640 don’t allow liners to be installed into a factory built chimney to upgrade them to a different standard.
The CSA B365 has not allowed inserts into factory built fireplace in the 2010 and the 2017 versions.
The building code requires ULC S629 chimney on solid fuel appliances. It allows ULC s604 with the clause in 9.22 stating Fireplaces can use the chimney they are certified with, any ULC S629 on the factory builts that are looking to add an insert? If you are going to install a insert into a factory built fireplace, I'd want a letter from the factory built manufacturer and the insert manufacturer saying that it was ok. Otherwise I'd never consider it.
Everything above applies only to Canada. I know that isn't relevant to the OP but may be to others who are reading this. And may shed some light onto the slippery slope that installing inserts into factory builts really is.
The ZC mfg. leaves the testing up to the insert mfg. They can't test for a product that may not be on the market yet. If the ZC mfg. says it is ok to use an insert specified (not tested, not approved) for their fireplace, then it appears to be incumbent on the insert mfg. to do the testing and certification.
And what standard are they testong to? The only way they could get it listed was if they tested the whole thing fireplace with insert liner cap and all as a zero clearance unit. And if that is how it is tested every one of those components would need to be specified.
And you know zc manufacturers spec absolutly everything from the grate to the cap that can be used because they have to for listing puropses. But you think you can then stick any insert in any fireplace without them being tested together???
I had a zero clearance fireplace that looks similar to yours and installed a Jotul F45 in front of it (hearth mount). The installer ran a liner through the zero clearance chimney and replaced the top so that it was correct for a 6" flexible liner. I already had built the hearth so the install only took a few hours. The inspector came out and approved it.
Its been working great all season (I burn everyday) and was a lot easier than tearing it all apart.
![[Hearth.com] Tearing out Prefab and installing ZC from outside chase?](https://www.hearth.com/talk/data/attachments/220/220868-af5f4287f1942f15f2c1f5e1253ff4c6.jpg?hash=93NBsgXG8Z "[Hearth.com] Tearing out Prefab and installing ZC from outside chase?")
Its been working great all season (I burn everyday) and was a lot easier than tearing it all apart.
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Are the cooling vents around tbe fireplace unobstructed? What about the coolong vents at the top for the air cooled chimney.
I didn't see the installation in person but to my knowledge the cooling vents are not obstructed. The steel plate behind the wood stove (covering the old zero clearance fireplace) is not sealed.
We're all in agreement that the installation needs to be safe. And we've beat this horse to death before. To be clear, this is not about sticking any insert in any ZC. No one has suggested throwing a Grandma Bear insert into a cheap contractor build fireplace. It is about putting an insert that lists the ZC mfg in the insert's documentation as acceptable and a ZC mfg. that has language that allows the insert installation.
According to HHT the Insert needs to be listed to UL 1482 Standard and approved for installation into listed factory-built zero clearance fireplaces listed to UL conforming to the following specifications and instructions:
The original factory-built clearance fireplace chimney cap must be re-installed after installing the approved chimney liner meeting type H.T. requirements (2100°F) per UL 1777. The air flow of the factory-built zero-clearance fireplace system must not be altered. The flue liner top support attachment must not reduce the airflow for the existing aircooled chimney system.
The factory-built chimney must be listed per UL 127 and meet the type HT requirements of UL 103. Factory-built fireplace chimneys tested to UL 127-1998, may be at the fireplace manufacturer’s option, tested to the same criteria as UL 103 HT requirements. If the chimney is not listed as meeting HT requirements, or if the factory-built fireplace was tested prior to 1998, a full height listed chimney liner must be installed from the appliance flue collar to the chimney top. The liner must meet type HT requirements (2100ºF) per UL 1777. The liner must be securely attached to the insert flue collar and the chimney top. To prevent room air passage to the chimney cavity of the fireplace seal the damper area around the chimney liner with high temperature sealant.
The fireplace must not be altered, except that the damper may be removed to accommodate a direct-connect starter pipe or chimney liner, and external trim pieces which do not affect the operation of the fireplace may be removed providing they can be stored on or within the fireplace for reassembly if the insert is removed.
I have taken the time to communicate with CSIA to get a clarification. I have spoken with Travis industries. The issue for CSIA is liability. The issue after many pages and threads also comes down to liability. If the OP has the insert installed by a professional installer, then the installer is the liable party, then the insert mfg., right? It's good to suggest that the homeowner due diligence and verify with the insuring party and installer and inspector that this is an approved installation.
Yes if both manufacturers agree that that insert can go in that fireplace it should be fine. All i said was that the op should verify with the fireplace manifacturer what exactly was meant by the statement an approved insert.
And to be clear there is no way you could possibly install an insert in this fireplace according to the hht instructions you posted. They clearly state that the fireplace cannot be altered other than removing the damper and trim. In this case tubes would need to be cut out.
Yes it is a liability issue. But it is a liability issue because there is no testing procedure to ensure the setup is safe.
And just to add another log to the fire.... If you're going to be the installer of such a project do you feel confident that the original ZC fireplace has been installed properly? Regardless of whether some code official somewhere has signed off on it or not, as the person installing the wood stove insert, you have now accepted all responsibility for both the insert and fireplace installation.
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