Temperature questions on new PE Pacific (mid sized) insert

[Northeaster1]

Hi Folks,

We have been running our new insert for a few weeks now, and are extemely impressed. It's been below freezing temps overnight off and on, but the cold certainly hasn't hit yet.
No trouble with draft, smoke in house, or anything like that.
Great overnight burns of 9 hours ** (Not full heat, as fan is cycling in AM, but plenty of coals in AM.. No need for kinding, just throw in a few stciks, and off again)***

The "trouble" is that my girlfriend is worried as the temp gauge we have stuck (magnetic) to the front of the firebox, just above the edge of the door often shows temps , in the danger zone. It is really a chimney thermostat, made to stick on the stove pipe, about 18" up from the stove. Of course, the pipe is covered and the stovetop plate is actually a separate plate attached on top of the firebox.. - so, I figured the best palce to measye the temp was the side, or front of the firebox.

Last night, after loading up foir the night, and leaving the air on med-high for 20 minutes, to make sure that the wood was going well, before damping down, the thermomter (burn indicator) was fully in the red, reading about 750-=800 degrees. I do have a cheap digital temp reader, and after pointing it ayt the front / side of the firebox, the highest it measured was about 600. The top plate was about 450.

So, is my "burn indicator" magnetic thermostat reading higher because I am using it on the firebox, and not on the stovepipe? I really just wanted to use it for a quick glance "guideline" for checking the stove.

I do agree with her, that it "felt" like it was burning a bit too hot last night. However, as I only ran it for 20 minutes on med- high air, before shutting it down, is that not reasonable??

The burn indicator has a scale from 0-300 (cresosote) 300-550 (burn zone / comfortable) 600 - 800+ (overfire/ danger)

Setup:
- Pacific insert
- external chimney (not insulated) approx 19'
- Block off blate and sealed top cap.


Any advcie would be appreciated

 

[begreen]

It sounds like your readings from the thermometer are in the ballpark. Often these cheap units are not totally accurate. Ignore the scales unless using it on the surface of a single wall flue pipe. Or better yet, get a thermometer without the scales on it or at least where the scales are more discrete. I recently picked up a Drolet for $10 for a friend that works ok. Cheap and from China, but it's temps were within 10 degrees of my IR reading at 600F.

(broken link removed to http://www.idealtruevalue.com/servlet/the-71179/Detail)

 

[Cearbhaill]

Seems to me that at some point I was told that I needed to subtract ±100º from my front of insert reading to approximate a stovepipe temp.
As you can see, my insert is most comfortable running above the "burn zone" indicator.

I have been to 750-800ºF perhaps twice, and I most certainly did not like the feeling it gave me, although I have been assured by a couple of guys here that I was still within the safe zone. Personally I felt as if my home was going to combust at any moment.

On my PE Pacific I find that choosing the right moment to cut the air back makes all the difference as far as how hot the thing gets. If I let it get to 400º or above before I remember to cut back the air I can count on it getting too hot to suit me, and it takes much less than 20 minutes to get to that point and 750-800 at that point would scare me to death. It almost always happens in the night when I fall asleep waiting for the load to get going.

I have no answer but sure wish I had a precise number to be afraid of, so I could relax for anything under that.

 

[Northeaster1]

Thanks for the input guys!

Cearb-
It looks like your burn indicator is on the front, just above the door as well. I was using it on the side of the firebox (near the top) as I had one of the side grates off. Now that it is all together, the front, above the door, is about the only choice.

I was hoping to find a rough guide to firebox vs stovepipe temps. So, with the - 100 rule, I can likely run at up to 700 on my burn indicator, which would then be roughly 600 at the pipe, where the indicator is meant to be placed, and still in the "safe" range.

Like you, things just feel a bit too hot, and I can smell a bit more Breakin / paint drying smell, when I have had it up around 750-800 at the firebox.

Normally the burn indicator is close to the IR readings on my cheap digital temp reader. However, last night they seemed to be off, as the indicator was showing near 800, and the highest IR reading was about 600. The cheap IR reader doesn't like glossy surfaces though, so I don't know which was more accurate. Judging by the overall feeling of heat / smell, I think it was closer to 750-800!

When I was away last week, my girlfriend added a few sticks, and turned the air down too quick, and just smoldered them. So I have been erring on the side of a bit too hot, to get it established, before shutting the air down.

Just reread the PE manual, and it does say to fully char the new wood, before shutting down the air!! Hard to do that without raising the temp too high!!

 

[Cearbhaill]

I was hoping to find a rough guide to firebox vs stovepipe temps. So, with the - 100 rule, I can likely run at up to 700 on my burn indicator, which would then be roughly 600 at the pipe, where the indicator is meant to be placed, and still in the "safe" range.

I would wait for confirmation on that "-100º rule".
I have had an awfully difficult time pinning anyone down on that.

 

[Northeaster1]

Planning on calling PE today, to try to get a "high" temp range from them. The book says not to overfire, but doesn't say what temp that is!!

 

[chutes]

Planning on calling PE today, to try to get a "high" temp range from them. The book says not to overfire, but doesn't say what temp that is!!

I'm running the same insert as well, and would love to know what they tell you. I too find that the manual is less than specific about some things.

I use the same Rutland pictured in this thread and position it above door on right side. I only run the insert between 400F and 500F though, but probably should run it a bit higher to maximize its heat output. I'm getting pretty good 4 hour burns out of a nearly packed stove that is running between 400F and 500F (occasionally it spikes to 650F for a bit before going down). I keep the blower set between 4 o'clock and 5 o'clock, air intake (after charring) to slightly above the lowest setting. At that I'm getting the fire room to 84F, far end of house to low 60s but very comfortable, and upstairs bedrooms in low 70s. I lose much of that during the overnight, so would love to try and take my stove a bit hotter during late afternoon and early evening to get upstairs temps in mid-70s if possible. Plus, I know that I'll likely see lower temps than that in dead of winter when outside air is in the single digits or below zero overnight. By then I'll probably want to master running this thing in the 600s or even 700s if it is safe to do so.

I think that Hogwildz on this forum runs his PE in the 700s pretty consistently, but he might be using a Summit Insert if I'm not mistaken. Not sure why that would matter as compared to the Pacific Insert, since I'm guessing that the product is probably identical and differs only in size of firebox (again, I'm guessing this is the case as I don't know for sure).

 

[tkuhe]

I am very interested in what Pacific says as I am installing/fighting this insert and new liner as we speak!

 

[Northeaster1]

OK. I am not quoting the tech from PE - just paraphrasing / summerizing in my own words. He was very helpful and easy to talk to!!

I was not able to get a stove temp range from him, but was satisfied with his answers. He said that they do not test or recommend the stove temps. However, he defined overfiring as burning through a full firebox of wood in less than 4 hours. I gave him my scenario, where i ran a full reload on high for approx 20 minutes, then cut the air back, but did not see the temps drop, and indeed continued to rise for while. He basically said that this was a case of the fire running away a bit, (as we know, due to the heat / inccreased draft) and to not run on high air for as long next time -- but that we were in no danger of hurting ourselves or the stove!! He said that it is OK to use a burn indicator, as a reference, and as you get used to what works well, you can try not to exceed the normal operating temps.

The big thing he mentioned was that during their testing, they actually connect a big fan to the stack, to pull more air through the stove and pipe, than the normal draft alone. So I feel that even with the ocassional runaway, I will never reach the point that they have tested the stove to.

If you have concerns, I would not hesitate to call them, as thye were quick to repond, and easy to talk to.

 

[chutes]

However, he defined overfiring as burning through a full firebox of wood in less than 4 hours.

Not sure if I can agree with this part of what he said (though he is clearly the expert over me). My problem with this is that if I fill my firebox with a good set of coals, leave air open for 10 minutes to char outsides, then close air to nearly closed, that wood will be mostly gone in less than 4 hours (though I still have good temps coming from my stove and the coals within). There is no way that this could be defined as over firing though, given that my air intake is low and my stove temps never (or, I should say, rarely) exceed 500F.

Just seems like an odd definition of over firing.

But, he works for the people that get paid to come up with definitions, so who am I to argue. Just find it hard to believe that I'm over firing my stove with my clean burns and relatively subdued temps of 450F to 500F...

Awesome of you for calling though and posting this. Much thanks!

 

[Northeaster1]

Chutes - you said you burned a full load for 4 hours. How long would it last until you have enough coals to still throw in a few big sticks (without kindling) on a reload.

I agree that you don't sound like overfiring, if the temps aren't that high. When mine overfired a bit, the temps were still climbing , and I shut the damper all the way down. However, as the fire was so strong, the extra heat created more draft, and the fire still continued strong, even with the ait shut down. Had I not let it get quite so hot before damping down, I think the fire would have settled more, as it normally does.

I guess that shutting the air down is a double edged sword - the reduced air input should make the fire last longer / burn slower. However, this may also keep the heat in the stove longer, as opposed to sending it up the chimney quicker. Not what you like to see, when the temp is already at 750+. At least that's my understanding.. Correct me if I am wrong, please!!

 

[chutes]

I can actually throw on kindling after 7 or 8 hours of burn and get a fire going no problem. In fact, I do that every morning. Maybe the rep. meant burning through a full stove - coals and all - in 4 hours? If that's the case, I can't even imagine burning through all of that in 4 hours. If I pack a stove at night - 10'ish - then even at 6:30 or 7:00 the next day I've got probably an inch of small coals buried under a thin layer of ash.

 

[Cearbhaill]

When mine overfired a bit, the temps were still climbing , and I shut the damper all the way down. However, as the fire was so strong, the extra heat created more draft, and the fire still continued strong, even with the ait shut down. Had I not let it get quite so hot before damping down, I think the fire would have settled more, as it normally does.

That sounds exactly like what happens to me the couple of times it just won't "settle down". If I let it go too long before damping down it just climbs and climbs and climbs. Twice I have had to put foil over the air intake slot and turn a fan on the door, and even then it seems to take much too long to stop climbing.
If I am still wthin safe range when my front thermometer reads 750-800ºF, great. But I would still feel 100% more secure if I was told that by PE themselves, in writing. Or any number, really. But give me a number.

I guess that shutting the air down is a double edged sword - the reduced air input should make the fire last longer / burn slower. However, this may also keep the heat in the stove longer, as opposed to sending it up the chimney quicker. Not what you like to see, when the temp is already at 750+. At least that's my understanding.. Correct me if I am wrong, please!!

That is my finding as well.

I know that a couple of times I have fallen asleep with a full load running wide open and wake up to that "uh oh- too hot" feeling. But even then it hasn't gotten above 700ºF or so- nowhere near the 750-800º I have seen with the air shut down.
I just haven't had the nerve to open the air back up when it is climbing like that.
The old timers around these parts tell me to open the door to get the heat discharged out the chimney when it goes "runaway", and I guess opening the air up is the same thing only a bit safer.
But I'm still afraid to do it.

 

[Northeaster1]

Yes, I believe he meant burning through all of it in 4 hours would be considered overfiring. At that rate, too hot for too long, I think.
I am still getting used to this insert. I have used a wood stove at my winter / ski camp for 6-7 years, but I run it alot more open than this insert. This is partly due to the fact that the ski camp is a renovated 100+ year old schoolhouse, only 20' x25', but it has 12' ceilings, a loft upstairs, and no insulation in the walls except the plaster / lathes. I did insulate the roof / loft ceilimng well, but it still takes the stove running nearky full out, on a cold day -20+Celicius, to keep it warm.

It seems that these modern inserts / stoves are not made to run with as much air as the older ones. Or am I wrong on that?

 

[Northeaster1]

Just wanted to correct a previous post, where I said that the magentic thermostat / burn indicator read 750-800 degrees, but the IR gun only read about 600!
I was having a brain fart moment - the cheap IR gun only reads to 600!! (I have sene 605, etc, but only rated for 600)

So, when the burn indicator said 800, I believe it, as it was accurate at all othere temps!! As mentioned above, the burn indicator is meant for the stovepipe (18" up), but I am using it on the front of the firebox, just above the door - as there isn't a lot of options where to put it, on an insert!

 

[tkuhe]

So I have been running my new insert for two weeks now and am loving it but I would like to try and pull some more heat out.
I usually pack the stove and char the wood until my front thermometer reads roughly 350 and then I damp it down. The stove will then continue to rise to 550-600 and will stay there for a couple of hours.
I keep the fan on auto with the dial around 4 o'clock.
I have been burning primarily ash and have found that it burns well but leaves a massive coal bed that doesn't turn to ash very quickly and makes it pretty difficult to add more wood.
What size should my logs/splits be? Is this an ash specific thing? Would mixing in some other woods help?

 

[Ken45]

It helps with the coals if you rake them forward and open up the air flow. Let them burn down to a manageable pile before you reload.

Ken

 

[Cearbhaill]

I usually pack the stove and char the wood until my front thermometer reads roughly 350 and then I damp it down. The stove will then continue to rise to 550-600 and will stay there for a couple of hours.
I keep the fan on auto with the dial around 4 o'clock.
I have been burning primarily ash and have found that it burns well but leaves a massive coal bed that doesn't turn to ash very quickly and makes it pretty difficult to add more wood.

If I char and cut back at 350º I won't get quite hot enough to sustain a long enough hot burn (650-700) to consume my coals.
But if I let it go just a tad hotter- 400º or so before I damp down- then it peaks a bit higher as well, lasts much longer, and everything is substantially reduced to ash when I go back to load up again. I reload when the blower kicks off, as I figure then is when the heat production (obviously) slows down. I keep my blower at around 4 o'clock, too.

So for me, I have to let mine get a bit hotter initially to get the long and hot burn I want. And to not have lumpy coals when I reload.

 

[tkuhe]

Thanks for the replies. I think it probably has more to do with my wood as last night I left it get up to 425 or so on the door before I damped it down but even then it would only rise to around 600. I just feel like I am working hard to try and get the heat out into the house.

On a side note, I went to a friends house last night and he has a Woodstock Fireview and I really feel like that thing blows away my new Pacific as far as heat output is concerned. Nothing but coals in his stove and the soapstone was just radiating heat out into the room, no fan either.

 

[tkuhe]

So I think it is my wood. Tonight I stuffed and charred it until it was at 450. Damped things down and it rose to maybe 600 at the most. Now I did have the blower set on high because it was pretty cold in the house but could that really make that much of a difference?

 

[Dix]

So I think it is my wood. Tonight I stuffed and charred it until it was at 450. Damped things down and it rose to maybe 600 at the most. Now I did have the blower set on high because it was pretty cold in the house but could that really make that much of a difference?

Thanks for the replies. I think it probably has more to do with my wood as last night I left it get up to 425 or so on the door before I damped it down but even then it would only rise to around 600. I just feel like I am working hard to try and get the heat out into the house.

On a side note, I went to a friends house last night and he has a Woodstock Fireview and I really feel like that thing blows away my new Pacific as far as heat output is concerned. Nothing but coals in his stove and the soapstone was just radiating heat out into the room, no fan either.

TK, I copied both of your lasr posts, to make it easier reading

Soap stone will do that.

Now...I get 11 hours of coals out of my insert. Easy restarts.

I have found, with my mish mosh of wood this year, that I run into wood that is not quite dry (my wood stacking area looks like March Of The Wooden Soldiers right now, trying to get as much exposed and dried as possible >:-(

I betcha it's the wood. When I hit a good load of dried, I'm smooth sailing.

Organized wood should be a national concern

 

[Ken45]

So I think it is my wood. Tonight I stuffed and charred it until it was at 450. Damped things down and it rose to maybe 600 at the most. Now I did have the blower set on high because it was pretty cold in the house but could that really make that much of a difference?

I suspect so. We had a couple of power outages yesterday and the stove temp got a lot higher than I've ever be able to get it with the blower running.

My wife made breakfast (sausage and eggs and biscuits) on the stove.

Ken

 

[tkuhe]

So I think it is my wood. Tonight I stuffed and charred it until it was at 450. Damped things down and it rose to maybe 600 at the most. Now I did have the blower set on high because it was pretty cold in the house but could that really make that much of a difference?

I suspect so. We had a couple of power outages yesterday and the stove temp got a lot higher than I've ever be able to get it with the blower running.

My wife made breakfast (sausage and eggs and biscuits) on the stove.

Ken

That's interesting. I wonder if I should leave the blower off until I see a 600+ temp?

 

[tkuhe]

I usually pack the stove and char the wood until my front thermometer reads roughly 350 and then I damp it down. The stove will then continue to rise to 550-600 and will stay there for a couple of hours.
I keep the fan on auto with the dial around 4 o'clock.
I have been burning primarily ash and have found that it burns well but leaves a massive coal bed that doesn't turn to ash very quickly and makes it pretty difficult to add more wood.

If I char and cut back at 350º I won't get quite hot enough to sustain a long enough hot burn (650-700) to consume my coals.
But if I let it go just a tad hotter- 400º or so before I damp down- then it peaks a bit higher as well, lasts much longer, and everything is substantially reduced to ash when I go back to load up again. I reload when the blower kicks off, as I figure then is when the heat production (obviously) slows down. I keep my blower at around 4 o'clock, too.

So for me, I have to let mine get a bit hotter initially to get the long and hot burn I want. And to not have lumpy coals when I reload.

So I got some new, dry red oak, and even still I am not seeing anything over 600. Put in some splits on a full bed of hot coals, left it open until 450-475 and then damped it all the way down. blower is on auto and set around 6 oclock. max temp is 600 at best.

Is it possible that when I took out the baffle when I installed the stove that I didn't put it back in correctly or that I may have damaged it? I am seeing a decent secondary burn in that I see funnels of flame come down out of the holes.

another observation is that most of my fire is towards the front/glass of the stove, even fully damped the fire is not in the rear all that much.

lots of coals after a long burn that I usually need to rake forward and burn hot to reduce to ash.

not sure what else I could be doing wrong? damper plate is sealed. I suppose I should head up top the roof and make sure my top cap hasn't come loose.

just thinking out loud....