Texas Stove Help

[jmcox44]

Hello, all. My name is Jacob and I'm in the process of building a new home for my wife and I. We are the general contractors and majority laborers. We live in central Texas where the winters are mild, but they do still exist (especially for my wife who is cold-natured).

I'm not sure how many people are on here from Texas, but I figured you guys would have the best advice for me. We have always had fireplaces, but I'm tired of having something like that for the looks by themselves. My in-laws have a wood burning stove and I love how it actually heats the house. So, since I finally convinced my wife that it was the smarter choice, I'm now trying to figure out the details of which brand, size, etc.

So the details of the house are:
- 2400sqft
- Open-cell spray foam insulation (fully sealed home)
- 8ft ceilings throughout
- Stove location will be fairly centralized, in living room

This is what I'm currently looking at:
- Osburn 2000 (big enough?)
- Building corner alcove so we can have a wood mantle (requirement by wife)
- Not sure if I need piping for fresh air from outside

With these details, can anyone help me make the decision on which stove, how to best install it for efficiency, and anything else you might want to add?

Thanks everyone!

 

[begreen]

Greetings Jacob. Normally in Texas one goes large on everything, but with a tightly sealed and insulated home the Osburn 2000 may be fine. It sounds like your home will hold heat very well. Have heat loss calculations been done? What will be the primary source of heat and what size is that system?

 

[jmcox44]

I will agree that we do like to go big on things, but one thing I'm attempting to do is not spend too much. Ideally, I want the best value for what I need, but doesn't everyone want that???

No heat loss calculations have been done yet. I'm actually still in the process of working with the HVAC guy and trying to decide the best system to use in this home. I'm still debating heatpump or heating element, going through the figures of payback timing to see if it makes sense to go heatpump. The chances are high that I will, but to answer your question, everything I will have in the house is fully electric.

I was actually hoping to have the primary source of heat come from the stove so I don't have to use as much electricity. I'm planning (building wise) for the future, hoping to go solar/wind, so the least amount of electricity usage I plan for now, the easier the transition will be in the future.

 

[Heatsource]

the osburn 2000 is a great stove, but might struggle with 2400sqft on the coldest days...
new sealed construction, definitely install the outside air kit!

 

[jotul8e2]

As you suspect, your heating requirements will be very low. Of all heat sources available today, electric resistance heat is the most expensive. Assuming you are going to have air conditioning anyway, the extra cost of a high efficiency heat pump is trivial and is the only reasonable way to go. The payback time over simple resistance coils could be as little as two years - more if you use wood heat extensively, of course.

Having said that, the addition of a wood burning stove is a choice for comfort, not for savings. In your climate and with a well insulated house, wood heat where the firewood is free will require more than 10 years to amortize. If you pay for wood it will take longer than the life of the stove. This is not to say you should not do it, just do not expect it to "pay for itself". Lot's of things don't but that does not mean they are not nice to have.

One of the benefits of a high level of insulation is that a point source of heat (wood burning stove) can provide more even heat throughout the dwelling as the heat losses away from the stove are greatly reduced. You can facilitate this in design and construction of your house. Raise the passageway openings throughout the house as high and wide as you can. Use 36" doors. Plan for insulating window treatments.

The Osburn 2000 is about the same size as my Jotul Oslo, and my house is about the same size as yours (although I do have a 1500 sq. ft. unfinished basement). In the last eight seasons there have been perhaps five days when I could have used a larger stove - and they were all periods where it was -10 deg. f. or less overnight for two or three consecutive days.

In new construction and with an alcove installation the outside air kit is another easy decision. The expense is very small, the benefits very large. I assume you will also have air to air ventilation for general make-up air, but a stove consumes a lot of air and it will pull it back down the bathroom vents, or the kitchen range vent, or where ever it can.

 

[Sprinter]

In new construction and with an alcove installation the outside air kit is another easy decision.

I'd go even further and say that outside combustion air is pretty much necessary in this case. In some areas, like Washington, it is mandatory in new construction. The last thing you need is a negative pressure problem in a tight house.

 

[begreen]

Don't install a commercial gas range with a 900 cfm range hood.

 

[Sprinter]

Don't install a commercial gas range with a 900 cfm range hood.

Yikes. That would suck the fire right out of the stove.

 

[jmcox44]

I assume you will also have air to air ventilation for general make-up air, but a stove consumes a lot of air and it will pull it back down the bathroom vents, or the kitchen range vent, or where ever it can.

I am planning for an HRV setup to ensure I have fresh air in the house, so that should accomplish the goal of not bringing air through the exhaust vents.

I will go ahead and plan on a direct air intake for the stove. Does the Osburn 2000 have that option?

I figured the heatpump would be the best option, and I do realize that this payback on a wood stove for me will be negligable, but if I have to choose a fireplace or a stove (to accomplish WAF), I would prefer the stove. I do have 7 acres of mostly cedar trees, but from what I've been told, cedar is not a good wood to burn. Is this correct?

I do have some passageways throughout the house so I will ensure to build those as high as possible. I'm not sure about the 36" door sizes...are you talking about bedrooms as well?

I'm including a floorplan showing the stove in the 'old' location. This is actually where we prefer it, but we are thinking that the stove needs to be in the opposite corner towards the bedrooms to try to centralize the heat. Do you think this will make a big difference?

 

[begreen]

HRV will be a necessity, though it is still possible to have a powerful range hood over-power the HRV. We had a case of this reported a couple months back.
Heatpumps are great. Get a very good one, with a two stage compressor and dc motor air exchanger. Or consider a set of mini-spits for their higher efficiency and ability to work at zero degree temps.
Cedar is not ideal to burn, but ok. It's sparky and tends to burn up very quickly so it should be split thicker.
Heat circulation in ranch layouts is a challenge. Closed off and far end areas like the MBR+bath and DR will be cooler. It may help to run the HVAC fan only on low speed to circulate the heat.
Get the heat loss calculations done before choosing the stove. I think the 2000 will suffice. Not a big deal if you need to supplement the stove with HVAC heat on a few of the coldest days. If the heat loss calcs show you need more BTUs then size up to the 2300.

Layout made a bit more easy to read:

 

[jotul8e2]

It appears Osburn makes an outside air kit (oak), but check with your dealer.

I am with you on stoves vs. fireplace. Cedar burns, often very rapidly. It also has a high resin content which traditionally has been a problem in creosote formation in the old pre-epa stoves. I have lots of it myself, but I do not bother with it if for no other reason than it has low btu content for its volume; a full load will likely burn itself completely out in three or four hours. Makes great kindling, though.

I wanted to take the passageways in our house to the ceiling, but the drywall installer said he gets a lot of call backs for cracks when that is done. So I simply nailed a 2X4 across the top of each opening and let him drywall around them. And yes, I strongly suggest 36" doors, if it is possible - interior doors, bath, bedrooms, everything. I even used one for our walk-in closet. There must be hundreds of posts on these forums about the problem of moving warm air around the house from a wood burning stove. A 36" door left wide open lets 20% more air in and out than a 30". I do know that air circulation throughout our house is very, very good, and I really believe that the high and wide passageways and wider doors are the primary reason.

The choice of corner in the living area will likely have little real world effect one way or another. The heat will build in that entire room and flow most readily into the kitchen, dining, hall, and two front bedrooms. My expectation is that you will have a noticeable air circulation pattern out of the living area, around the hall and kitchen, and back to the other passageway. You may get some decent warmth into the master bedroom as well, but the master bath and utility room are probably going to be a problem.

 

[Sprinter]

There must be hundreds of posts on these forums about the problem of moving warm air around the house from a wood burning stove.

That's true. Just my $.02 here, but ranch layouts like this are tough, depending on your expectations. Yes, you will get some circulation, especially if you plan for it in some way, but just don't expect too much. Small fans blowing outward at doorways on the floor can help a lot, causing the cool air below to be replaced by the warmer air above. It helps us a lot with the bedrooms. Since you are in the planning stages, you may be able to design in some kind of similar thing but more elegant. The idea is to move the cool air out at the bottom and allow warmer air in at the top. There are units like this one that can help if placed properly as well. http://www.amazon.com/Suncourt-TW20...ue&ref_=ox_sc_sfl_title_32&smid=ACP6JMVRXLHJ5

But you're going to want a good heat pump in any case, I would think. Maybe the minisplits that begreen suggests.

 

[Sprinter]

Oh, regarding the outside air, assuming you will have a vented crawlspace, it's best to get the air from below where the air is sheltered from wind.

 

[jmcox44]

Closed off and far end areas like the MBR+bath and DR will be cooler

That was actually planned. I need it to be much colder in the master bedroom to sleep. My wife doesn't need it that way, but that is why she has 3 extra blankets on her side of the bed (even today....with it being 80+ outside). The master bath would be nice being warmer, but if it gets too bad, the electric heat will be used.

But you're going to want a good heat pump in any case, I would think. Maybe the minisplits that begreen suggests.

I've looked into the minisplits, but they are quite expensive, and since I'm doing spray foam and will be including the attic (spraying the roof), I shouldn't have as much loss in the ducting like a normal installation would. What do you guys think about the hybrid systems? I've been reading more and more about the niceties of the minisplit but still being able to have air conditioning into each bedroom and bathroom.

Small fans blowing outward at doorways on the floor can help a lot, causing the cool air below to be replaced by the warmer air above.

Would it be possible to achieve this with just large ceiling fans moving the air upwards?


Thanks for all of the replies guys. This is great information.

 

[begreen]

A nice heated towel rack on a thermostat can be a good way to gently heat the bathroom.
Yes, they make ductable mini-split air handlers that work well. Mini-split systems are often less expensive to install. There is much less labor without ductruns and registers to install.
Ceiling fans will help, but the far corners of the house will be cooler, especially if disconnected from the main stove area by hallways and doors.

 

[Sprinter]

Would it be possible to achieve this with just large ceiling fans moving the air upwards?

From my experience, ceiling fans help distribute air around the main room, and can help a bit with the rooms immediately adjacent by moving air across the doorways. but you really need to provide some kind of circulation route to get to other rooms. If you end up with central air system with insulated ductwork, you may get some help by using the furnace fan for circulation, but people have varying degrees of success with that.

 

[begreen]

One option might be to put in a dedicated circulation system with a return in the dining room that blows air into the stove room. That will set up a circulation loop pulling warm air into the DR across the kitchen. It will also help temper the stove room. This ducted system could be installed in the attic. A quiet, 150-200cfm, inline fan should do the trick. Panasonic makes remote bath fans that can work in this application.

Or just try it out for the first winter. For testing you can use a 10-12" table fan set on the floor of the DR/Kitchen doorway, pointed toward the stoveroom to see if that improves circulation together with the ceiling fan running.

 

[Sprinter]

One caviat. Some people want to install a furnace return vent near the stove to pick up the heat. But you need to look at codes about that. As I recall, you'd need to be minimum 10' from the stove in most fire codes. Just throwing that out in case it's occurred to you.

Most threads like this are from people in existing homes. You're doing well by planning so far ahead... I think you can figure out a good plan.

Keep those in-wall fans like I posted above in mind. Some need to be hard-wired, so you'd need to plan for those type. Some are wired so you can plug them in and install any time. Properly placed, they can provide a good, gentle circulation route.

 

[Texas123]

Hello, all. My name is Jacob and I'm in the process of building a new home for my wife and I. We are the general contractors and majority laborers. We live in central Texas where the winters are mild, but they do still exist (especially for my wife who is cold-natured).

I'm not sure how many people are on here from Texas, but I figured you guys would have the best advice for me. We have always had fireplaces, but I'm tired of having something like that for the looks by themselves. My in-laws have a wood burning stove and I love how it actually heats the house. So, since I finally convinced my wife that it was the smarter choice, I'm now trying to figure out the details of which brand, size, etc.

So the details of the house are:
- 2400sqft
- Open-cell spray foam insulation (fully sealed home)
- 8ft ceilings throughout
- Stove location will be fairly centralized, in living room

This is what I'm currently looking at:
- Osburn 2000 (big enough?)
- Building corner alcove so we can have a wood mantle (requirement by wife)
- Not sure if I need piping for fresh air from outside

With these details, can anyone help me make the decision on which stove, how to best install it for efficiency, and anything else you might want to add?

Thanks everyone!

I have lived in Texas and heated with wood as the primary since 1997, so I can provide some advice.
First of all, I agree with the former editor of Rodale Books, I believe his name was Jim Belanger. His advice for a wood-stove was to get the ugliest and heaviest piece of stove you can move and stand to see for your heater. The more mass the stove has the slower the heat loss once you go to bed and wake up the next morning. This is why cast iron or soapstone stoves are 'better' then the stainless steel ones.
Second - the purpose of a stove is not just for comfort but for preparedness in the winter. I had a Wonder-wood stove by United States Stove Company for years, and it is a heating monster. BTU output was up to 100,000 per hours full blast, and it could accommodate up to 24 inch logs and had an ash-pit.
During the ice storm week of the Super Bowl, we had the electricity turned off by ERCOT, the electrical transmission and coordination agency of the state of Texas. I came home from the night shift to a house with no power since 3 am,outside air was 9 degrees and the living room was still at 68 degrees. No power, no auxiliary fans , just simple convection. This can still be purchased as a non EPA compliant model, and the newer models are dual fuel coal and wood. To compare apples and oranges, this is the stove equivalent of a.357 revolver or a double barreled shotgun, not fancy and will do the job when needed.
Finally, don't go for an insert. My best friend persuaded me to install an insert and I have lost 6 degrees of temperature on the family room wall even when the outside temperature is in the 40s. It is not going to be here past next November. Old Stove is going back in, hope this helps.

 

[BrotherBart]

As a native Texan that loved being on the Vernon team that kicked the crap out of Stephenville in a football game in 1965, and having heated with wood since I stopped laughing in 1977, the Osburn 2000 will do the job just fine. With any house an OAK is good. With that tightly sealed a house it is mandatory.

A soapstone stove like Woodstock makes would provide more even heating no doubt.

 

[kennyp2339]

As a native Texan that loved being on the Vernon team that kicked the crap out of Stephenville in a football game in 1965, and having heated with wood since I stopped laughing in 1977,

Is there a way to double or triple like this comment?
I think this is the best comment of the year so far other than how the cat can predict the weather better than the farmers almanac

 

[ddahlgren]

I think the most telling words are the original post and the mention of 'off grid' and then the wake up call coming home to no power. How ever you have to do it I would design in the best possible convection that relies the least on fans and electricity to eventually meet your mentioned off grid goal and to have a very warm house even if the power goes out. Even if you do end up with substantial solar and wind it is nice to not have to rely on them either and save that power for the luxury items rather than necessities. You might look into gas for cooking especially if natural gas is available as no electricity needed as you can light it with a match. We have had a couple of hurricanes here where the power was out for close to 2 weeks. With a well stocked pantry gas stove and 20 gallons of gas on hand for the generator life was pretty normal. Just to rattle neighbors cage a bit made everything from breakfast to a pizza on the gas grill. If you have natural gas a small gen set that runs on it as a last resort is handy as well and will have laundry and dishwasher almost mandatory if you have a well and well pump. 50 amps of 220/240 will accomplish a lot with a little load management.

The point of these comments is figure the end goal and if off grid do it once with that thought in mind. Going back to make changes to eliminate the need for electricity is time consuming and expensive along with the most fragile source of power at the same time. It can be shut off at a moments notice and nothing you can do about it.

 

[Wood Dog]

One option might be to put in a dedicated circulation system with a return in the dining room that blows air into the stove room. That will set up a circulation loop pulling warm air into the DR across the kitchen.

I really like Begreen's idea, although the OP prefers a cooler bedroom. It is a great method of getting warm air circulated to the far reaches of a home, quietly and cost effectively. I wish I had done something like that, given my lonnng hallway that leads to 3 bedrooms and bathrooms. We put a small box fan on the floor at the end of the hall and it creates an "air flow loop". We are always on the hunt for a quieter fan - don't like the constant white-noise. That's why I personally would not like the thru-wall fan units. I'm sure they would move the air well, but their noise level will increase over time.
An inline fan mounted close to an attic access, insulated ducting, attractive ceiling/ wall grills, wall mounted on/off switch - a small addition to the total cost of building a house these days.
And I'm glad to see that BrotherBart has a sharp/ subtle memory for glories past. . It was possibly a LEGENDARY post.

 

[jmcox44]

I'm bringing back this old thread since we are actually at the point of deciding what stove to use. We have the house dried-in for the most part and I'm working on the roofing and need to get the chimney installed. Since I am planning an alcove, I need to get all of the clearances figured out which requires having a stove chosen. I went to a local dealer and they suggested the Jotul F400. He said he sells a bunch of them locally (central Texas). I like the fact that it is cast iron and steel and it seems to have good reviews/ratings. He is quoting me $2400 for the stove, and no higher than $1600 for installation. I feel that both prices are higher than they should be, so I'm still trying to decided what to do. I do have another local building supply store that supposedly sells the Pacific Energy brand (I will call if people suggest this stove). So at this point, I'm looking at the Osburn, Jotul, and Pacific Energy. Anyone have any suggestions on what would work best for my application?

Just to add to the details. We want to install this in an alcove (with outside air intake), so clearances do matter. I will ensure wall and ceiling gaps (1" with spacers) and will probably install a small hearth, though the surrounding flooring will be stained concrete, so no issues there.

 

[begreen]

Can you sketch out the alcove dimensions and post them here. That makes stove suggestions easier.

The Castine is a good radiant heater that looks great. It has a smaller firebox so reloads will be more frequent and loading is E/W so one needs to watch logs from rolling against the glass (no andirons). The Osburn is a straight steel stove, not fancy but a good performer. The firebox is a bit shallow so it too is best loaded E/W. The mid-sized PE stoves are nice heaters with an extended burn time and square firebox that loads N/S or E/W. If you like the cast iron look at the Alderlea T5. It's a great performer and has close clearances.