The saga of the insane neighbors - they just won't give up!

[milner351]

Folks it's been a while since I posted here - thanks to all your great advice, last winter was a good one of hot fires, little smoke, and easy to swallow utility bills.

Some of you may remember this thread:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/16603/


Believe it or not these hypochondriacs are back at it, my wife just called me to say they were televised on the local info station at the township meeting, still trying to build a case to make us stop burning.

This is the type of stuff that makes the hair on the back of my neck stick up, makes me grit my teeth, my stomach churns up, and I'm ready to FIGHT.

Our pacific energy summit is (please correct me and post any applicable data to help my arguement) one of the cleanest stoves available, we have a fully stainless lined two story tall chimney with a stainless cap. We burn hard wood that is fully seasoned. WE ARE DOING NOTHING WRONG, nothing illegal, nothing against any township rules.... yet - they claim we are "killing them".

Here's what I'd like to find that I'm having a hard time locating...

1. wind data for washtenaw / wayne counties in SE Michigan - I want to prove at the most basic level - the foundation of thier complaints is nonsensical - I need data that shows without a doubt that the prevailing winds in this area are from the West (these folks live to the west of us) meaning that the smoke is blowing away from them for the vast majority of days throughout the heating season.

2. data showing the polution numbers of the pacific energy summit insert -- the stove came with some info - but nothing comprehensive.

3. any information from other similar case rulings about INDOOR woodburning heaters -- I know there have been many many storied complaints about the outdoor wood burners - I need to stay clear of those.

Any other ideas?

We've recently had a change in the township, new supervisor and board members - so the folks I've made the arguement with already - are gone.

 

[Delta-T]

the NOAA may have data on prevailing winds for you. I do wish you luck on this.

On the lighter side, if indeed you are killing them, complaints should end sometime in Oct/Nov.

 

[EatenByLimestone]

Check the local tv station. Their metiorologist should be able to point you to info.

Matt

 

[Hiram Maxim]

Your Google Foo is weak.......... ;-P

I would go and talk to the Mayor and the City Attorney.

Its safe to say that most people know that the wind comes from the West 90% of the time in our area!

(broken link removed to http://www.windfinder.com/windstats/windstatistic_mapreat_lakes_2.htm)
http://www.windfinder.com/grafiken/windstats/map_great_lakes_11.png
http://www.windfinder.com/grafiken/windstats/map_great_lakes_12.png
http://www.windfinder.com/grafiken/windstats/map_great_lakes_1.png
http://www.windfinder.com/grafiken/windstats/map_great_lakes_2.png
http://www.windfinder.com/grafiken/windstats/map_great_lakes_3.png
http://www.windfinder.com/grafiken/windstats/map_great_lakes_4.png

 

[meathead]

Man, this really rubs me the wrong way. Sounds like you have done everything you should and then some. Short of banning wood as a heating fuel in town, I don't see how anyone could bother you. You've put your time in, I'd say the best approach may be to just ignore it. Why bother keeping up the argument and wasting your personal time? If any town officials call or come to the door, tell them you have already been through it. Tell them the stove is legal, EPA certified, inspected, and approved, and they can have a wonderful day and you'd appreciate it if they didn't bother you about it again. Burn your wood, wave at the neighbor when you see them, and forget about it. Let them waste their time trying to build a case against a well constructed, properly installed heat source. And if the town asks for any more “mediation meetings”, I’d tell them to go pound sand and mediate each other unless they want to compensate you for your time.

Well...first throw rotting fish carcasses into their yard...then forget about it.

 

[milner351]

You guys are the best!

Thanks for the wind info - not sure why I couldn't find that!

I've searched some on the noaa michigan site too. I'd love to have some kind of data - daily or even hourly averages - something I could put into a spreadsheet and summarize and come up with some statistics on (yea- I'm an engineer geek sometimes)

I would love to ignore this - and I have been for almost a year - the problem is they obviously aint gonna give up

(they've already put up a line of about 20 20 foot tall trees along the lot line to "block the smoke)

We live in a town ship - so there is no mayor - but there is an elected township supervisor, board, and environmental officer - whom I've already spoken with several times.

I can't ignore someone that is trying to have an effect on my liberty as a free American citizen - I may be getting a bit dramatic here - but this really really T's me off!
They've even suggeste WE MOVE -- um NO -- you have the complaints, it's your problem YOU MOVE.
Even worse - this guy pretends to be a good catholic - he's a decon and wears a huge crucifix around his neck.... such a hypocrit!

 

[Delta-T]

you may be able to put this whole thing to bed by telling him "the lord told me to burn wood".

I second the idea of the fish in the yard, no very effective, but very very funny. Heck, thats funny weeks later.

 

[daveswoodhauler]

Hmmm...maybe next meeting you can (friend) perhaps video the meeting and you can youtube it?

To take the trial burning a bit further....why not burn on a certain schedule for the next 2-3 weeks and document each time your appliance was burning. (Perhaps every other day, and mix up the days/times)
Ask the town to have the Ahole neighbors write down each time they have a problem and compare....just sounds like you have a hypo on your hands.
Good luck...read the whole last post.

 

[rdust]

How close are the neighbors?

 

[firefighterjake]

After reading the old thread and this thread all I can say is I'm glad I live where I do with the neighbors I have . . . most of whom burn wood . . . or at the very least realize that around here burning wood is normal and expected.

You have my sympathy . . . but honestly short of the town putting a moratorium on burning wood I could not see how they could stop you if you're burning using good practices . . . i.e. not burning those tires in the stove, burning painted wood, etc.

That said, I am sure they are smelling smoke . . . it can happen . . . I sometimes smell my neighbor's woodstove in middle of the winter . . . of course I'm outside at the time. I think, once again, that folks last March were right . . . generally folks don't have smoke penetrating a house unless there's something funky going on with the home's air pressure/air intake. Heck, my neighbor isn't using an EPA stove and my house isn't the best insulated house (certainly not the worse though) and I can't smell any smoke in winter.

 

[begreen]

Here's what I'd like to find that I'm having a hard time locating...

1. wind data for washtenaw / wayne counties in SE Michigan - I want to prove at the most basic level - the foundation of thier complaints is nonsensical - I need data that shows without a doubt that the prevailing winds in this area are from the West (these folks live to the west of us) meaning that the smoke is blowing away from them for the vast majority of days throughout the heating season.

2. data showing the polution numbers of the pacific energy summit insert -- the stove came with some info - but nothing comprehensive.

3. any information from other similar case rulings about INDOOR woodburning heaters -- I know there have been many many storied complaints about the outdoor wood burners - I need to stay clear of those.

Sorry to hear that this is still going on.

For hourly weather history information, go to www.wunderground.com and type your zipcode. Then look on the middle left side for the weather history. Here's a link for Ann Arbor: (broken link removed to http://www.wunderground.com/weatherstation/WXDailyHistory.asp?ID=KMIANNAR24) . If you start again at the root of the website with your zipcode and scroll down to the bottom of the page, you should see multiple local weather stations (on houses) listed. Choose a few of the closest. Then look at the recorded history for that site.

For testing data, you might try to contact John Gulland to see if he can refer you to Canadian testing. http://www.gulland.ca/

 

[fossil]

...Well...first throw rotting fish carcasses into their yard...then forget about it.

Now there's a swell idea. Toss rotting animal carcasses into the neighbors' yard that's generally upwind of your own. Why not just go out in the garage and smash your own thumb with a ball peen hammer and then yell "There, how'd you like them apples?" toward your neighbors' house? %-P I've a feeling this thread is headed straight toward the can, if it goes the same direction as the one about the complaints of unsightly stacks of wood...with all of the ludicrous suggestions of how one might "retaliate" against a neighbor who's doing something annoying. Rick

 

[gzecc]

Milner, what kind of wood are you burning and how long do you season it?

 

[Wood Duck]

The most convincing wind data will be collected at or very near your house. You can collect this yourself. The simplest way is to mount a wind vane, and each time to light a fire (and remember) look at the vane and write down the direction. You can also write down wind direction every morning, evening, etc. There are electronic vanes that give a readout inside your house if you want to go high tech. I think what you're trying to show is that usually the wind goes away from the neighbors' house. This won't take a ton of data - you'll have a nice set of data this year, and if your neighbors continue to report problems at a time when the wind was blowing the other way, then you have a good argument that it is not your fault. Keep in mind that the days when you burn are probably also days when others burn, when oil furnaces light up, etc. The simple fact that they have problems when you have a fire doesn't prove that the problems are due to your fire, but I think it is likely that if they smell wood smoke, they'll smell it on cold days when you will have a fire even if the smoke is coming from somewhere else. Similarly, if their own furnace is causing a problem, it is likely to occur when you have a fire because both things happen on cold days.

 

[Delta-T]

Sorry fossil. Warning taken. I think that most of us here just know that trying to fend off the irrational with.....rationale, is futile at best. Frustration brings out the sadist in us all. I retract my "seconding" of the fish throwing, agreeing that it is akin to smashing one's own thumb (since neighbors are upwind).

On a more constructive path......I assume the neighbors are not wood burners, but could it be possible that what they think is wood smoke is actually a problem with something in their own house? Leaky oil tank or something? In my experience it is hard to smell wood smoke after the initial contact. Who can still small a campfire after you've stood near it for 5 minutes?

 

[JustWood]

My attorney on many occasions (involving zoning,environmental and basic disputes)( I have a prick CS of a neighbor) has told me that until a COURT summons has been issued to do NOTHING. You haven't broken the law until a summons is issued. Don't worry about it and try and catch your neighbor breaking the law with camera or video so you have leverage.

As a good neighbor I mind my own business until someone minds mine.

 

[i3bpvh]

This thread makes me a little nervous. I live in a suburb of minneapolis, and am going to pick up an insert next month. I checked with the city and there are no bans or restrictions on home heating with wood, but I dont want to be "that guy". I have burned in our masonry fireplace for the last 2 winters (started the day we moved in) with no complaints from neighbors, but I want to burn 24/7 now to get get the bills down... plus I love to burn. Do I need to be worried? All the homes in the area are are roughly the same height, is that enough??

 

[Later]

Ask them why in hell they have their windows open far enough to suck in massive amounts of stove exhaust in the winter.

 

[i3bpvh]

That's what I'm thinking but apparently that's not enough. I try to be mindful of the neighbors and dont burn until it's cold enough that people don't have their windows open anymore.

 

[maplewood]

...I'll bet the neighbours don't believe in Santa, either. He came down the chimney, despite the soot and ash.

Twas the night before Christmas, when all through the house
Not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse.
The stockings were hung by the chimney with care,
In hopes that St Nicholas soon would be there.

The children were nestled all snug in their beds,
While visions of sugar-plums danced in their heads.
And mamma in her ‘kerchief, and I in my cap,
Had just settled our brains for a long winter’s nap.

When out on the lawn there arose such a clatter,
I sprang from the bed to see what was the matter.
Away to the window I flew like a flash,
Tore open the shutters and threw up the sash.

The moon on the breast of the new-fallen snow
Gave the lustre of mid-day to objects below.
When, what to my wondering eyes should appear,
But a miniature sleigh, and eight tinny reindeer.

With a little old driver, so lively and quick,
I knew in a moment it must be St Nick.
More rapid than eagles his coursers they came,
And he whistled, and shouted, and called them by name!

"Now Dasher! now, Dancer! now, Prancer and Vixen!
On, Comet! On, Cupid! on, on Donner and Blitzen!
To the top of the porch! to the top of the wall!
Now dash away! Dash away! Dash away all!"

As dry leaves that before the wild hurricane fly,
When they meet with an obstacle, mount to the sky.
So up to the house-top the coursers they flew,
With the sleigh full of Toys, and St Nicholas too.

And then, in a twinkling, I heard on the roof
The prancing and pawing of each little hoof.
As I drew in my head, and was turning around,
Down the chimney St Nicholas came with a bound.

He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot,
And his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot.
A bundle of Toys he had flung on his back,
And he looked like a peddler, just opening his pack.

His eyes-how they twinkled! his dimples how merry!
His cheeks were like roses, his nose like a cherry!
His droll little mouth was drawn up like a bow,
And the beard of his chin was as white as the snow.

The stump of a pipe he held tight in his teeth,
And the smoke it encircled his head like a wreath.
He had a broad face and a little round belly,
That shook when he laughed, like a bowlful of jelly!

He was chubby and plump, a right jolly old elf,
And I laughed when I saw him, in spite of myself!
A wink of his eye and a twist of his head,
Soon gave me to know I had nothing to dread.

He spoke not a word, but went straight to his work,
And filled all the stockings, then turned with a jerk.
And laying his finger aside of his nose,
And giving a nod, up the chimney he rose!

He sprang to his sleigh, to his team gave a whistle,
And away they all flew like the down of a thistle.
But I heard him exclaim, ‘ere he drove out of sight,
"Happy Christmas to all, and to all a good-night!"

...Tell them they are on Santa's naughty list. That should shut them up!

Really - fight the good fight and good luck - we're all with you.

 

[CTburning]

There is nothing than can be done until burning season starts. It is up to them to prove that you are doing something wrong. I wouldn't worry about it to this fall. Have you talked to any of your other neighboors to see how they feel. Maybe they can shed some light on why you have been targeted.

 

[RIDGERUNNER30]

I hate to hear that you have people like that around you, around here where i live if you don't like the smell of smoke you can always move, some people i know would give them a helping hand on relocating. screw up world we live in dude.

 

[DeePee]

This thread makes me a little nervous. I live in a suburb of minneapolis, and am going to pick up an insert next month. I checked with the city and there are no bans or restrictions on home heating with wood, but I dont want to be "that guy". I have burned in our masonry fireplace for the last 2 winters (started the day we moved in) with no complaints from neighbors, but I want to burn 24/7 now to get get the bills down... plus I love to burn. Do I need to be worried? All the homes in the area are are roughly the same height, is that enough??

I wouldn't be overly concerned, just be considerate. I live in possibly the least ideal situation for a wood-burner, but with a few compromises it is working out happily. Just burn clean and safe and you shouldn't have any complaints. For me, production and storage are the main factors to consider in avoiding being "that guy". I don't put wood on the driveway, don't cut when neighbours are enjoying their yards and use a quiet electric splitter. We don't have fences, a wall of tall daisies keeps eyes off the wood piles. Surrounded by some of the most particular when it comes to lifestyle, even the two folks with their wet wood and billowing smokestacks (red dots) don't get grief. So long as you keep it clean and friendly, I doubt most will even know you're burning. Don't stress out, enjoy it!

 

[Bobcatter]

I caught the part of the neighbors putting in 20 foot tall trees and I thought about how that would introduce new aerodynamics into their problem. Could it be possible they are magnifying any smoke in the air? In top half of this simple diagram, the big square would be like their tree line. Their house could be in the back wash the trees are causing, they could be sucking in the air that should be blowing past them.

 

[rustynut]

351,
Heres a story out of Fraser
Lived in an older neighborhood with a mix of young and old.
Took care of the neighbors when it snowed if they weren't done
when I got out. I would do 4 or 5 houses each way and even both
sides of the street. Gave me a chance to run the 4 wheeler.
So one year I get this little old lady moves in next door.
Now I was trying to raise 3 teens and you all know what that can be like.
This little old lady decideds that every chance she got she would call the police. The noise from a basketball. The noise from a spraygun.
You get the idea. Nothing mattered but they had to come out and answer the call. So we delt with it.........
So I had to ask myself "why in the heck am I pushing snow for this B*%"
humm.........
Snowed like crazy that winter. Especially on her driveway.........
Really enjoyed plowing the rest of the neighbors that season.
She figured it out when she had to call distant family to help her
every time it snowed.
The trivial calls stopped. No calls all summer.
Plowed her again next season and we all lived happily ever after.
just a little food for thought
best of luck
rustynut

ps: was that a Clevland or Windsor