I am thinking of upgrading to a new Jotul. I am currently burning an old Vermont Castings Defiant model 1975. I am heating a 3200 square foot post and beam with structural insulated panel construction in Massachusetts. On a typical winter day I burn the stove in the morning for 3 or 4 hours or so and have to let it go out. The house holds the heat for the most part during the day. Then, I rekindle the stove at about 7 at night and I let it go out at about midnight. On a recent 20 degree day, I burned the stove from 6 AM until about 11AM, let the coals burn down some and then threw two or three more logs on. The fire was out by 1:00. At 9:30 at night the house was still 68 to 70 degrees. I would like to eventually upgrade to a Jotul. I'm thinking about either the Oslo or the Firelight. I don't want to get a stove that is too big. My goal is to heat the whole house, but keep the fire going so I don't have to constantly rekindle. Anyone have any thoughts?
Thinking of upgrading to Jotul, wondering about sizing
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Welcome. The F500 may work fine for this house. SIP homes usually are pretty tight and energy efficient. How large is the house? How high are the ceilings? How did the Defiant work out during the recent drop below zero?
The stove is in the great room. It's 24 x 24 with 18 foot high ceilings. The main part of the house is 32 x 32 with cathedral ceilings upstairs. The great room is open into the downstairs and the loft upstairs. There's also a room above the attached garage that's about 24.5 x 24.
I can get heat into the room above the garage. The slowest part of the house to heat is downstairs in the 32 x 32 section. I had 15 below in the recent cold snap overnight. Then 5 below the following night. The 15 below night I tried to run the stove overnight. I don't ever really load the Defiant up, but rather add a few logs on at a time. The fire went to coals a few times cause I fell asleep. But, I kept it going til maybe 2:00 AM. I woke up at 4:00AM and there were hot coals. The house may have cooled down to about 62-65. I started the stove back up at about 6:30AM and burned it until maybe 2PM to recover the heat and bring the house back up to 68-70 or above in some parts. The daytime temps only got to about 5 above. I didn't restart the stove til about 6:30 or 7:00 pm.
I burn the Defiant for about 35-40 minutes open every day, then I close the damper and burn it at the lower end of the burn zone (300-350 degrees). Someone I talked to at a stove shop recently thought maybe I've lost some control over the fire in the Defiant because perhaps some of the seals have been compromised over time. I don't exactly know what he means, but the stove was taken apart and resealed when I got it about 6 or 7 years ago.
I can get heat into the room above the garage. The slowest part of the house to heat is downstairs in the 32 x 32 section. I had 15 below in the recent cold snap overnight. Then 5 below the following night. The 15 below night I tried to run the stove overnight. I don't ever really load the Defiant up, but rather add a few logs on at a time. The fire went to coals a few times cause I fell asleep. But, I kept it going til maybe 2:00 AM. I woke up at 4:00AM and there were hot coals. The house may have cooled down to about 62-65. I started the stove back up at about 6:30AM and burned it until maybe 2PM to recover the heat and bring the house back up to 68-70 or above in some parts. The daytime temps only got to about 5 above. I didn't restart the stove til about 6:30 or 7:00 pm.
I burn the Defiant for about 35-40 minutes open every day, then I close the damper and burn it at the lower end of the burn zone (300-350 degrees). Someone I talked to at a stove shop recently thought maybe I've lost some control over the fire in the Defiant because perhaps some of the seals have been compromised over time. I don't exactly know what he means, but the stove was taken apart and resealed when I got it about 6 or 7 years ago.
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The Defiant is a radiant heater. The high ceilings make it harder to warm up at floor level. You may be better off with a convective stove with a blower to circulate the heat better and get more even heating. The F500 and F600 can have a blower added to assist convection or Jotul makes the F50 which is a more convective design. Also worth looking into would be the PE Alderlea series and the catalytic Blaze King Ashford 30. The latter is thermostatically regulated.
So the Jotul 500 and 600 are not convective stoves? I have my heart set on one of these stoves. I run ceiling fans in the great room and in the open loft to circulate the air. I have never had much difficulty circulating the air to heat the house with the Defiant. I was thinking about getting a blower kit with a Jotul if/when I get one.
With a blower kit either model can be made more convective. Have you ever tried setting a fan behind the Defiant, blowing across the top to help convection?
No, I haven't. But I've seen those fans that you can set on the top of a stove that operate from the heat generated by the stove. Would that achieve the same effect? Thanks for all of your help. Do you think the Jotul 500 Oslo would be adequate for heating the whole house if a blower kit and a top fan were in use. My ultimate goal is to get a stove that I can use to heat the entire house and can pretty much keep burning with minimally having to rekindle. Right now I only burn the Defiant when I am home, but I would like to trust a stove and be able to load it up, get it set, and leave for work.
Thanks
Thanks
Based on what you are saying I am wondering if a catalytic stove like the BK Ashford would be a better fit. That would give you the low and slow burn for milder days with more horsepower for the coldest weather. The Ashford is a cast iron clad, steel convectional stove with >24hr burn times on low. It's nicely finished and has a growing following here.
The Oslo F500 would be the model closest to the output of your Defiant. It will (just barely) hold a fire overnight well enough to have coals to start a new load of a morning. If you are considering using a stove mounted blower I have heard the one sold with the Oslo and it is amazingly quiet. However, I should think you really need a ceiling fan - probably two.
If you do not mind more frequent reloading, the smaller Firelight operates efficiently at lower btu outputs - smaller fire box, smaller surface area.
Either of your choices will burn at least a third less wood for the same heat output.
Lower and slower burns are easier with cat stoves. I have an Oslo and a well insulated house and my problem is similar to yours. Today it is 45 degrees out so I let the fire go out last night. I may start one this evening, depending on how far the temperature falls after sunset. If I had to start over I would strongly consider the Woodstock Progress.
If you do not mind more frequent reloading, the smaller Firelight operates efficiently at lower btu outputs - smaller fire box, smaller surface area.
Either of your choices will burn at least a third less wood for the same heat output.
Lower and slower burns are easier with cat stoves. I have an Oslo and a well insulated house and my problem is similar to yours. Today it is 45 degrees out so I let the fire go out last night. I may start one this evening, depending on how far the temperature falls after sunset. If I had to start over I would strongly consider the Woodstock Progress.
I heat with the Oslo. The great room like yours 28 x 16 with 18 foot ceilings. The second floor is open to this room. This heats easily and evenly at the -18 temps we had this weekend. The back bedrooms on the stove floor are normally 5 degrees lower, although I didn't check them Saturday night. I don't count the basement, as the stove heat doesn't gets there. The stove does 1500 sq ft. Overnight burns, come and go. Most of the time my wife keeps it going. And other times we let it burn down and let the house temp drop 10 degrees. For me the Oslo is perfect size.
If your heating 3200 sq ft with only the VC stove, I think the Oslo could work, but I would look at something bigger like the 600 or another stove,
If your heating 3200 sq ft with only the VC stove, I think the Oslo could work, but I would look at something bigger like the 600 or another stove,
I heat 3200 Square feet with the Oslo. I have 10ft Ceilings with a large open foyer and the house is new. It does well until the teens with wind or in single digits. You like the looks of the F600 I would go with that. If not the Oslo will work too
claydogg84
Minister of Fire
I switched from a Defiant like yours last year. I choose the Oslo only because the Firelight (F600) wouldn't fit in my hearth. I love the Oslo, but don't think it puts out the same heat as the Defiant. Go with the bigger 600.
If I understand the OP, they don't need more heat. For the most part it sounds like they need less heat over a longer period of time. For that reason I think I would be looking into either a cat stove like the BK Ashford or something with mass like a cast iron clad stove like the PE Alderlea or Enviro Boston or a soapstone stove with a blower.
claydogg84
Minister of Fire
That may be, but he specifically stated he wished to upgrade to a Jotul, hence my suggestion.
Rearscreen
Minister of Fire
If you are talking Jotul I'd buy 2 and put them side by side then do hopscotch loading. That will give you the heat and longevity you are looking for. Take heed from Begreen, I know he's on the right track. Hey are there any dealers on this forum? I'm just curious what Jotuls commission is compared to other brands sold in the showroom.
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claydogg84
Minister of Fire
While there are many extremely knowledgeable members like begreen on this forum, there are also members that are the complete opposite. Rearscreen is one of them. His dislike of Jotul comes from his own ignorance and misuse of their product.
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Rearscreen
Minister of Fire
Ok as far as ignorance, what stoves have you owned in your lifetime?
All stoves heat when you put wood in. It comes down to how much wood you put in to make X amount of heat over X amount of time. I guess all of my Jotul friends are ignorant as they burn twice as much as I do. Maybe they/I need to go to Jotul U?
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heavy hammer
Minister of Fire
I upgraded to an Oslo five years ago and the stove has been a true workhorse. With that being said I heat about 1600 square feet about half of what you have but the stove is very capable of heating much more. We purchased a newer stove for something that would heat overnight and with the locking doors we could both go to work and leave a fire going and not worry about the doors opening and the house burning down, like on our old stove. Begreen would have a much better view and knowledge on the different stoves out there than myself. I can only speak about my personal experience with the Oslo. I think the Oslo or the firelight would easily accomplish you goals, but there may be a better fit out there. Let us know what you decide on.
As much as I like Jotuls I would not get fixated on one brand. There are a lot of fine stoves out there. The difference for us going from the radiant Jotul Castine to the softly convective Alderlea was surprisingly larger than anticipated. Be open minded and try to be objective. It's important to decide what one's core needs are and then look for stoves that best satisfies them. For us, that was large firebox, N/S loading, close corner install clearances and a classic look. The F600 would not work for our corner install due to side loading and clearances. That has changed since then. Jotul now makes both classic cast iron stoves and cast iron clad steel stoves so there are more options even within the Jotul brand. That was not an option when we got the T6. FWIW, I still miss the beautiful blue-black enamel finish on the F400.
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Thanks for all of your input. I appreciate all of your suggestions. However, without any disrespect meant, I am not interested in hearing about people's personal preferences or biases for brands of stove. I would simply like to hear anyone's ideas on sizing a Jotul stove for the size (3200 square feet with cathedral ceilings in the great room and upstairs) and the unique construction of my house (structural insulated panels, very tightly insulated).
I will admit that there are inherent problems with being narrow minded about brand, but since I built the house, I've always dreamed of getting a Jotul stove. I want the look and I want non-catalytic. I want either the Jotul 400 Castine, the Jotul 500 Oslo, or the Jotul 600 Firelight. And talking with people at stove shops, I think the Jotul 600 Firelight is too big for my house.
The Vermont Castings Defiant Model 1975 is too big for my house. I want to minimize having to start a fire from scratch twice a day (newspaper, kindling, small splits, then larger pieces). I want to be able to heat my entire space with a controlled burn, and I want to be able to call on the stove to work more when I need it to in colder weather. My house retains the heat, and I'm able to get the heat distributed for the most part throughout the house by using two ceiling fans. In general, though, with the Defiant, I'm only able to burn it for 3 to 4 hours in the morning then have to let it go out, and 4 to 5 hours at night, then I have to let it go out. Obviously, colder weather, I'm able to burn it for somewhat longer, but the stove's more than capable of heating the house still.
What I don't completely understand, and what I'd like to learn more about, is, when I was in a stove shop talking to a dealer, he talked about not knowing how much of the control over the fire I've lost because it's an older stove and the seals have probably been compromised to some degree. I usually burn the Defiant open, but in the burn zone for 35-40 minutes, then shut the damper and burn the stove at 300 to 350 (usually closer to 300, stove thermometer on the stove pipe). Does this mean I am burning a hotter fire than I would if I was burning a modern stove at the same temperature, and therefore, the stove is throwing more much more heat than a modern stove would? I realize comparing the Defiant and a modern stove is apples and oranges. You're not comparing the same thing. Does anyone know how many BTU's the Vermont Castings Defiant Model 1975 puts out?
Anyway, I love the Oslo and the fact that it has a side load door, and I think it would be capable of heating my house, but I worry some; would that be too big for my house and would I therefore have the same problem I have now? I like the Castine too, but when I look at that stove I worry that that wouldn't be capable of performing the way I want it to.
Anyone have any thoughts?
I will admit that there are inherent problems with being narrow minded about brand, but since I built the house, I've always dreamed of getting a Jotul stove. I want the look and I want non-catalytic. I want either the Jotul 400 Castine, the Jotul 500 Oslo, or the Jotul 600 Firelight. And talking with people at stove shops, I think the Jotul 600 Firelight is too big for my house.
The Vermont Castings Defiant Model 1975 is too big for my house. I want to minimize having to start a fire from scratch twice a day (newspaper, kindling, small splits, then larger pieces). I want to be able to heat my entire space with a controlled burn, and I want to be able to call on the stove to work more when I need it to in colder weather. My house retains the heat, and I'm able to get the heat distributed for the most part throughout the house by using two ceiling fans. In general, though, with the Defiant, I'm only able to burn it for 3 to 4 hours in the morning then have to let it go out, and 4 to 5 hours at night, then I have to let it go out. Obviously, colder weather, I'm able to burn it for somewhat longer, but the stove's more than capable of heating the house still.
What I don't completely understand, and what I'd like to learn more about, is, when I was in a stove shop talking to a dealer, he talked about not knowing how much of the control over the fire I've lost because it's an older stove and the seals have probably been compromised to some degree. I usually burn the Defiant open, but in the burn zone for 35-40 minutes, then shut the damper and burn the stove at 300 to 350 (usually closer to 300, stove thermometer on the stove pipe). Does this mean I am burning a hotter fire than I would if I was burning a modern stove at the same temperature, and therefore, the stove is throwing more much more heat than a modern stove would? I realize comparing the Defiant and a modern stove is apples and oranges. You're not comparing the same thing. Does anyone know how many BTU's the Vermont Castings Defiant Model 1975 puts out?
Anyway, I love the Oslo and the fact that it has a side load door, and I think it would be capable of heating my house, but I worry some; would that be too big for my house and would I therefore have the same problem I have now? I like the Castine too, but when I look at that stove I worry that that wouldn't be capable of performing the way I want it to.
Anyone have any thoughts?
I would suggest you also consider Jotul's more convective stoves like the F50 and get away from strongly radiant stoves like the Defiant or F500.
Simonkenton
Minister of Fire
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