Time to replace the stove, I think. Thoughts?

[snowleopard]

i’ve been off the forum for many years, and happily burning. I still love my Hearthstone heritage, but it’s kind of like when you notice that puppy you got 14 years ago isn’t getting around so good anymore. I can’t load it up and shut it down like I used to and get a good overnight burn. There’s faint smell of wood smoke being released out the top. This thing has done really well for me, and served for 10 or 12 years as a primary heater after the boiler failed three months post installation.

We’ve got about six weeks left on the tax credit, and this thing is in good enough shape at this point to be able to resell it to someone who wants to do a rebuild, which I do not. I think that the signs are pointing towards a replacement, which would be another heritage, but part of me is in denial. Don’t want to take the old girl to the vet today. I just think if it’s showing these signs, it’s not gonna get better. And if I get a new one now, I’ll probably get another 20-25 years out of it, because it’s no longer functioning as my only source of heat. I finally got the boiler replaced a few years ago and it’s working really well with the woodstove.

It just feels like the stars are lining up to do this, but maybe I’m being hasty here? I’ve heard it said that there is a hearthstone stove in the manufacturers facility that’s been burning every day for the last hundred years. Thoughts?
And thanks

 

[begreen]

Hey hey, welcome back snow leopard. The good news is that this stove is rebuildable with good documentation from Hearthstone. How are the door hinges doing? For Highbeam, that was the quitting point. If not, the front casting may need replacement. If they are still good, then the stove can be broken down, resealed and rebuilt for a fairly low cost.

Stove supply is dwindling as many rush to get their new stoves in by Dec. 31st. Also, many of the new stoves that qualify are more complex and require a bit more maintenance than the older Heritage does. Is there any stove in particular that caught the eye?

 

[snowleopard]

Thank you for the welcome home, and the reply, and the information.

Hinges are good, although the front latch and the side latch were wearing out some years back, but since one rotated clockwise and the other counterclockwise, I took them out and swapped them, so they both had a good leading edge. Front one is wearing again. Minor issue. I think it’s just a matter of the cement holding the soapstone panels starting to wear out, especially on top because that’s where I’m getting those occasional puffs of smoke.

What I’m looking at for replacement is the newer heritage, with the catalyst. I really love this one. I have a new foster cat, and he was up on a shelf around the corner from the stove. He was telegraphing his intent, and I told him no no no no no no no no no hot no, and he said, hold my beer, and went for it, and immediately departed. If it had been a metal top stove, we would’ve been headed for the vets office, instead of him sitting down quietly afterwards and contemplating how his choices led him there. This has been a great stove.

Last week I heard that Hearthstonestone still had two left-handed stoves in their warehouse.

Where could I learn more about doing a rebuild? I’m not adverse to trying that, but I’m not someone who has access to a shop full of tools, and a lot of muscle. And these things are very heavy, so if I were to do that, it would probably be right in place in the living room.

I should know that I’m the original owner, and I’ve been pretty scrupulous about taking care of it. I don’t think it’s been over. Fired, I don’t burn trash in it, I burn seasoned wood, clean the stove pipe twice a year. It’s also in an ideal location, stove pipe is a straight shot up, lee side of the house, lee side of the hill, so a really good draw.

I have an old washing machine that had some issues, and I figured I had to replace it. Some people counseled me to keep the old one running because the new ones were not fixable by owner, and didn’t last. So I took their advice and bought some inexpensive parts off of eBay, and it’s still running fine. I’m not opposed to trying to fix the stove myself, as long as it’s something I could bring to a reasonable conclusion. And I’m not adverse to waiting until summer to do something about it, cause it’s still working OK.

 

[begreen]

There are some Hearthstone rebuild threads here, mostly for the older ones. The principle and methods are the same. @Kevlar_vw did some nice documentation in the Classics forum of a rebuild.

I hear you about the cat. Fortunately, our cat hasn't tried jumping on it, though the T6 trivet top on our stove would offer a degree of protection.

 

[snowleopard]

Thanks. I think I’m gonna hold off pulling in the lever on a new one until I’ve looked into that. I have several cats here, and a couple of them just had to figure that out for themselves, but most just seemed to know. It’s funny too because it’s on their parkour course in the summer, but they somehow have the wit to not include that in the route in the winter.

This was installed in about 2010, I think, so it’s not one of the old square ones. I’ve been running it with a damper, which I find really helpful, although the manufacturer does not recommend a damper.

ETA: OK now I’m having a hold my beer moment. I just started poking around in there and I realized that the door panel is loose enough to perhaps being the source of my problem. I’ve got a fire going at the moment so I am exercising great self-control and not actually removing it to see what the problem is. Maybe a missing screw or just a couple of loose screws?

Also, I got curious about when I actually bought this and started poking around at some of my first posts 16 years ago. Brought it all back like yesterday.

 

[John Lehet]

I don’t have only experience, only thought about buying a used older then also a newer Heritage, so I searched and read a lot. One of my conclusions is that the newer model is a different beast altogether, for better and/or worse. On the plus side, it has a much better, more robust door frame/hinge/latch design and build quality. I guess on the down side there seems to be a certain amount of love it or hate it split about down the middle in terms of use and function, and maybe having to do with relationship of stove to chimney.

I decided to buy a Woodstock Soapstone Progress instead, which I am still waiting for.

So I’d say if you love your current model, might be worth fixing and keeping it. You might love the new one just as much, or more, or you might find it a different stove from what you are used to.

I’m not sure about cost/hassle/need, but I wonder if it might be worth replacing the door frame and whatever parts those are that commonly fail on the pre-cat heritages while you are working on it, even if yours are fine. If it’s easy to do and just a bit more money it might future proof the rebuild a bit. Or maybe however you treat the stove doesn’t wear those parts. Door problems on the pre cat Heritage kept me from buying a used one this fall. Not that the one for sale had a problem I knew of, just that the failure is so common.

 

[snowleopard]

One more question… Do you think the problem could have anything to do with the three broken off screws, holding the door panel to the door frame? Or more accurately, not holding it? I noticed the gasket was gapping, and started probing and realized that I could get a quarter inch of air by pressing slightly on the panel.

I think I’d better start with four new screws instead of a new stove. I am in equal measures, feeling stupid and relieved. This might not solve the whole problem, but it seems like a good place to start.

 

[snowleopard]

I don’t have only experience, only thought about buying a used older then also a newer Heritage, so I searched and read a lot. One of my conclusions is that the newer model is a different beast altogether, for better and/or worse. On the plus side, it has a much better, more robust door frame/hinge/latch design and build quality. I guess on the down side there seems to be a certain amount of love it or hate it split about down the middle in terms of use and function, and maybe having to do with relationship of stove to chimney.

I decided to buy a Woodstock Soapstone Progress instead, which I am still waiting for.

So I’d say if you love your current model, might be worth fixing and keeping it. You might love the new one just as much, or more, or you might find it a different stove from what you are used to.

I’m not sure about cost/hassle/need, but I wonder if it might be worth replacing the door frame and whatever parts those are that commonly fail on the pre-cat heritages while you are working on it, even if yours are fine. If it’s easy to do and just a bit more money it might future proof the rebuild a bit. Or maybe however you treat the stove doesn’t wear those parts. Door problems on the pre cat Heritage kept me from buying a used one this fall. Not that the one for sale had a problem I knew of, just that the failure is so common.

Thank you for sharing those ideas. I think the Woodstock stone stoves are beautiful. I ended up going with the heart stone in part because there was a local dealer and I thought it would be easier to get it installed that way.

I really haven’t had any problems to speak of with this, but I just discovered that three of the four screws that hold the door panel on are broken off. So the whole thing with being held together with one screw. So I kinda have to solve that before I get another fire going. Imagine if that last one had failed in the middle of the night, or when I was away, or when it’s 40 below.

Well, damn. I know how I’m gonna spend the rest of today.

 

[snowleopard]

Four screws plus postage from Hearthstone=$94.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

Four screws plus postage from Hearthstone=$94.

are they gold plated?

 

[John Lehet]

They need to be very special screws for sure, not off the shelf from the hardware store. I think we have evidence that those screws get more stress than they can sometimes handle. I guess we don’t know whether they in fact are supplying extra strong screws or whether the original hardware was of proper spec. But clearly the combo of materials and design stress was not a high point of engineering. Dangerous. Yikes.

 

[snowleopard]

are they gold plated?

At that price, it better be solid.

 

[snowleopard]

They need to be very special screws for sure, not off the shelf from the hardware store. I think we have evidence that those screws get more stress than they can sometimes handle. I guess we don’t know whether they in fact are supplying extra strong screws or whether the original hardware was of proper spec. But clearly the combo of materials and design stress was not a high point of engineering. Dangerous. Yikes.

You know, 15 years of hard use, high temperatures, no doubt, some moisture burning off. I don’t fault them for wearing out. But I just talked to the local stove dealer, and they told me they just buy stuff right off the shelf at the hardware store so I think just to get me back in the saddle right now, that’s what I’m gonna do. It will allow me to evaluate whether that was the problem.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

yeah, I think that is a great idea. Hardware stores sell different grades of screws, bolts etc, Find one of the workers, tell them what it's for, show them what you've got and they will get the best hardware for the job. My local Ace Hardware is super when it comes to customer service, so I'm sure you won't have issues finding what you need.

 

[John Lehet]

I know there are different grades of screws, but I don’t know if there are trade-offs. I assume it’s safe to assume that harder = better, but I wonder if there is any trade off between hardness and shear strength, brittleness, or heat resistance. I have no idea, but I wonder if it might possibly be more complicated than I understand, or than a kid at the hardware store understands. A materials engineer would be good. Or call Hearthstone, in case someone there has given it some thought.

I wouldn’t even think about it twice, except that the safety of that door staying on is so important, and the screws as designed are obviously on the hairy edge of being sufficient for their application, at least the original ones were. Sure, 12 years of use or whatever, but a Woodstove door should not be falling off as the first failure point. I don’t know the manufacture date of the Jotul that’s burning here in front of me right now, but I assume it’s about 25 years old. I bought it used and abused and have used it for 15 years myself. It’s had some work done on it. But I would have to go at it hard with a sledgehammer to get the door to fall off. I assume I could get those sturdy casting pins the hinge hangs on to break if I hit them hard enough with a 20 pound hammer.

 

[Burnin Since 1991]

I know there are different grades of screws, but I don’t know if there are trade-offs. I assume it’s safe to assume that harder = better, but I wonder if there is any trade off between hardness and shear strength, brittleness, or heat resistance. I have no idea, but I wonder if it might possibly be more complicated than I understand, or than a kid at the hardware store understands. A materials engineer would be good. Or call Hearthstone, in case someone there has given it some thought.

I wouldn’t even think about it twice, except that the safety of that door staying on is so important, and the screws as designed are obviously on the hairy edge of being sufficient for their application, at least the original ones were. Sure, 12 years of use or whatever, but a Woodstove door should not be falling off as the first failure point. I don’t know the manufacture date of the Jotul that’s burning here in front of me right now, but I assume it’s about 25 years old. I bought it used and abused and have used it for 15 years myself. It’s had some work done on it. But I would have to go at it hard with a sledgehammer to get the door to fall off. I assume I could get those sturdy casting pins the hinge hangs on to break if I hit them hard enough with a 20 pound hammer.

Agreed. Go to the store during the morning on a weekday when the old timers are working (yes, I'm of that class). If you get them and they don't get you that warm/ fuzzy, then you can do a plan B.

 

[Megunticook]

I know there are different grades of screws, but I don’t know if there are trade-offs. I assume it’s safe to assume that harder = better, but I wonder if there is any trade off between hardness and shear strength, brittleness, or heat resistance. I have no idea, but I wonder if it might possibly be more complicated than I understand, or than a kid at the hardware store understands. A materials engineer would be good. Or call Hearthstone, in case someone there has given it some thought.

I just tore down and reassembled my Vermont Castings stove and replaced all the hardware. It looked like VC used Grade 5 hardened bolts (3 lines on top of the hex bolt head); I ended up using stainless steel with high-temp. copper antiseize. Got differing opinions on this but finally decided stainless was plenty strong for this application and would be easier to remove if needed down the road. But I probably should've checked with a VC engineer to be sure. Be curious what your stove manufacturer says.

In my experience the staff at your local hardware store more likely than not has minimal knowledge of wood stoves. Hell, I've even been surprised at how little some of the dealers around here know (one local VC dealer told me I could only get "aftermarket" parts for my 25-year old Encore--a 1 minute Google search proves that wrong--I think he was just trying to sell me a new stove).

 

[snowleopard]

I know there are different grades of screws, but I don’t know if there are trade-offs. I assume it’s safe to assume that harder = better, but I wonder if there is any trade off between hardness and shear strength, brittleness, or heat resistance. I have no idea, but I wonder if it might possibly be more complicated than I understand, or than a kid at the hardware store understands. A materials engineer would be good. Or call Hearthstone, in case someone there has given it some thought.

I wouldn’t even think about it twice, except that the safety of that door staying on is so important, and the screws as designed are obviously on the hairy edge of being sufficient for their application, at least the original ones were. Sure, 12 years of use or whatever, but a Woodstove door should not be falling off as the first failure point. I don’t know the manufacture date of the Jotul that’s burning here in front of me right now, but I assume it’s about 25 years old. I bought it used and abused and have used it for 15 years myself. It’s had some work done on it. But I would have to go at it hard with a sledgehammer to get the door to fall off. I assume I could get those sturdy casting pins the hinge hangs on to break if I hit them hard enough with a 20 pound hammer.

I talked to someone at an industrial supply store yesterday, and he explained about different grades of heat resistance: number two, number five, number eight, and number nine. I also talked to one of the people who assemble in repair stoves at the local dealer, and he said they get their hardware right out of the local hardware store. So that’s what I’m gonna do as a temporary measure to see if that solves the problem I had.

Just to be clear, this is not a matter of the door falling off. Hearthstone makes their stoves with a combination of cast frames with soapstone panels set in them. The screws that are holding the panel in are the ones that failed. I knew going into this that I wasn’t buying a blaze king, and I was OK with that. You have to baby these a little bit more, and I think people who buy soapstone decide that the trade-off is worth it. The other thing I will say in defense of this line of stoves is that our winters are very long, very cold, and for most of the time I’ve used it, it was the only heater in a 2000 square-foot house. I didn’t buy thinking it was gonna be my primary heater, but three months later when the boiler went belly up, it moved into that position. So 15 years of the life of that stove is probably the equivalent of several more years in a different application. I would hate for this to scare somebody off, because I have been nothing but pleased with this heater.

 

[snowleopard]

I just tore down and reassembled my Vermont Castings stove and replaced all the hardware. It looked like VC used Grade 5 hardened bolts (3 lines on top of the hex bolt head); I ended up using stainless steel with high-temp. copper antiseize. Got differing opinions on this but finally decided stainless was plenty strong for this application and would be easier to remove if needed down the road. But I probably should've checked with a VC engineer to be sure. Be curious what your stove manufacturer says.

In my experience the staff at your local hardware store more likely than not has minimal knowledge of wood stoves. Hell, I've even been surprised at how little some of the dealers around here know (one local VC dealer told me I could only get "aftermarket" parts for my 25-year old Encore--a 1 minute Google search proves that wrong--I think he was just trying to sell me a new stove).

Thanks for the tip about the bolt head. It’s looking like grade 5 is gonna be the best I can find around here. Was the high temp copper anti-seize on the bolts already? Or was that a spray on application? Where did you find them?

 

[John Lehet]

You should definitely rebuild this stove. I’d guess maybe only about half of stove owners would say, “I’ve been nothing but pleased with this heater.”

Me, my Jotul has been OK, but now that I’m ready to move on I can’t wait for the new stove to come. It can’t be soon enough. (My installer is taking of these two weeks for deer season, so even if they call me tomorrow I have to wait.)

 

[snowleopard]

You should definitely rebuild this stove. I’d guess maybe only about half of stove owners would say, “I’ve been nothing but pleased with this heater.”

Me, my Jotul has been OK, but now that I’m ready to move on I can’t wait for the new stove to come. It can’t be soon enough. (My installer is taking of these two weeks for deer season, so even if they call me tomorrow I have to wait.)

What kind of a stove are you getting? And if you don’t mind me asking, why do you need an installer? If you already had a stove in place, isn’t it pretty much plug-and-play?

 

[Megunticook]

Thanks for the tip about the bolt head. It’s looking like grade 5 is gonna be the best I can find around here. Was the high temp copper anti-seize on the bolts already? Or was that a spray on application? Where did you find them?

It's a paste you apply by brush--sticky, gooey stuff (wear gloves). Manufacturer is Permatex. I used the copper because it was recommended but check out the temperature range on the Nickel...

 

[snowleopard]

It's a paste you apply by brush--sticky, gooey stuff (wear gloves). Manufacturer is Permatex. I used the copper because it was recommended but check out the temperature range on the Nickel...

View attachment 342409

I appreciate that and I will definitely use that if and when I get these screws out.

So I took another run at it today and I definitely cannot get that fourth screw out without drilling it out. Here’s an idea that occurred to me. Could I just more or less glue the panel to the cast frame with something like a gasket sealant, just to get me through the winter? I’m not afraid to tackle a rebuild, but I am afraid to have my stove down for an indefinite period of time during the winter.

 

[begreen]

One more question… Do you think the problem could have anything to do with the three broken off screws, holding the door panel to the door frame? Or more accurately, not holding it? I noticed the gasket was gapping, and started probing and realized that I could get a quarter inch of air by pressing slightly on the panel.

I think I’d better start with four new screws instead of a new stove. I am in equal measures, feeling stupid and relieved. This might not solve the whole problem, but it seems like a good place to start.

Yes, try the dollar bill test, all around the door perimeter. Sounds like it may be leaking on the hinge side. Does the glass get darker on that side?

 

[begreen]

are they gold plated?

Maybe hand carried from Spain. I would probably just use the stainless equivalents from the hardware store.