To insulate or not to insulate?

[MoDoug]

Looking for opinions on what seems to me is an odd situation. I'm installing a wood stove to manufacturer specs and will have it inspected for insurance purposes. My pipe is straight up through a cathedral box. I've been told by the inspector to not install insulation in the box because it will not dissipate the heat properly and potentially cause a fire. The manufacturer, Selkirk, makes insulation just for this purpose. The insulation wraps around the chimney pipe in the cathedral box to prevent air from infiltrating back into the living space from the roof flange, and provides additional protection against radiant heat. I'm installing double wall pipe all the way up, don't know if that matters of not.

Is the inspectors concern about the insulation valid? My gut says as long as I'm installing per the manufacturers specs I should be good to go. It basically boils down to the inspector vs. the manufacturer.

Thanks in advance!

Cathedral box is Supervent p/n JSC6CCSB
Supervent class A pipe p/n JSC6SA3
Insulation is Selkirk p/n JUSI

 

[kennyp2339]

I've had two different set up with a ceiling support box into my vented attic, I left the inside of the box empty and never had any issues with feeling a draft, condensation and actually like the insurance that if I were to have a small chimney fire / stove over-fire the class a pipe will be cooling itself by sucking in air at the bottom of the pipe.

 

[begreen]

It is ok to use the factory tested and approved insulation as instructed. Print out the directions for the inspector.

 

[bholler]

What begreen said

 

[Bad LP]

Manufacturers instructions overrule any local inspector as they are UL listed. The inspector must follow the building code and the instructions. He’s not allowed to interpret them differently.

That came straight to me by the local inspector who was a really good guy and even though he left we remain in contact.

 

[bholler]

Manufacturers instructions overrule any local inspector as they are UL listed. The inspector must follow the building code and the instructions. He’s not allowed to interpret them differently.

That came straight to me by the local inspector who was a really good guy and even though he left we remain in contact.

Actually the authority having jurisdiction has final say. Of course you can always go over their head if they are not following code but that can open up a whole other can of worms.

That being said I would bet if you showed this inspector the instructions he would be fine with it.

 

[MoDoug]

I've had two different set up with a ceiling support box into my vented attic, I left the inside of the box empty and never had any issues with feeling a draft, condensation and actually like the insurance that if I were to have a small chimney fire / stove over-fire the class a pipe will be cooling itself by sucking in air at the bottom of the pipe.

I'm new to this, my first wood stove. I have a stick built cathedral ceiling, no attic space, just the 2x10"s, 1x car siding and roofing to go through.

 

[MoDoug]

Manufacturers instructions overrule any local inspector as they are UL listed. The inspector must follow the building code and the instructions. He’s not allowed to interpret them differently.

That came straight to me by the local inspector who was a really good guy and even though he left we remain in contact.

I live in an area with no codes, other than sewage. Even the fire department won't inspect. Safety is foremost, but as long as my insurance company covers me is all I care about. I think as long as everything meets the manufacturers requirements I should be fine.

 

[bholler]

I live in an area with no codes, other than sewage. Even the fire department won't inspect. Safety is foremost, but as long as my insurance company covers me is all I care about. I think as long as everything meets the manufacturers requirements I should be fine.

Your state has adopted pretty much the same codes as the rest of the country. Yu have codes just no enforcement. Who is inspecting this with no codes?

 

[MoDoug]

Your state has adopted pretty much the same codes as the rest of the country. Yu have codes just no enforcement. Who is inspecting this with no codes?

He is a guy that installs wood stoves, and apparently has for 20+ years. When I say we have no codes, I mean no building codes, I realize there is the National Building Code, which mostly comes into play when selling a house for loans and such. The wood stove and pipe inspection is to ensure it meets the manufacturers specs.

 

[bholler]

He is a guy that installs wood stoves, and apparently has for 20+ years. When I say we have no codes, I mean no building codes, I realize there is the National Building Code, which mostly comes into play when selling a house for loans and such. The wood stove and pipe inspection is to ensure it meets the manufacturers specs.

Your state has adopted those building codes and therefore they apply to you whether they are enforced or not. If the inspection is to confirm it meets manufacturers specs. Show him the specs saying you can insulate it.

For the record I never insulate the box. And have never had a problem

 

[kennyp2339]

For the record I never insulate the box. And have never had a problem

Upon further though on this, looking at the op's location, if he was running the ac (lots of summer heat and humidity over there) and the insulation has an r- value he might be mitigating a potential condensation point in the summer, not quite sure though and it may take a little more research.

 

[Bad LP]

I’m shocked that the lack of insulation is allowed. Period.
I’ll not drag this into what should or shouldn’t happen with .gov but common sense should prevail.

I had an energy audit done on my 13 yo house this past Sept. I’ve been involved in many aspects of building for over 30 years and the last 30 was very, very high end as a manager.
I was shocked in what the blower door test showed. I’m sure the many hundreds of hours and dollars I’ll spend addressing the list will ever really pay ME back but I got paper proof on the scam the LED light bulbs hoax has paid me back. That would be no measurable reduction on my bill.

 

[bholler]

I’m shocked that the lack of insulation is allowed. Period.
I’ll not drag this into what should or shouldn’t happen with .gov but common sense should prevail.

I had an energy audit done on my 13 yo house this past Sept. I’ve been involved in many aspects of building for over 30 years and the last 30 was very, very high end as a manager.
I was shocked in what the blower door test showed. I’m sure the many hundreds of hours and dollars I’ll spend addressing the list will ever really pay ME back but I got paper proof on the scam the LED light bulbs hoax has paid me back. That would be no measurable reduction on my bill.

???? LED bulbs have saved me quite a bit.

 

[Bad LP]

???? LED bulbs have saved me quite a bit.

Not for me. I seriously don’t get the hype. Have the bills to prove it.

 

[bholler]

Not for me. I seriously don’t get the hype. Have the bills to prove it.

As do I proving it the other way. But regardless the amount of heat loss through a support box is so minimal I really don't see it as an issue

 

[MoDoug]

regardless the amount of heat loss through a support box is so minimal I really don't see it as an issue

The inspector said the amount of energy loss is less than 1%. However his main point is the insulation is a fire hazard, he is really adamant about the safety of using it. Very close to his comment is "When your house burns down, you better have something from the manufacturer saying it's ok to use the insulation". That got me to wondering if there's more to this than what the manufacturer is claiming, and that is what prompted me to reach out to this group for opinions. Sometimes people with real world experience have reasons for what they think, but so far I'm not convinced.

 

[bholler]

The inspector said the amount of energy loss is less than 1%. However his main point is the insulation is a fire hazard, he is really adamant about the safety of using it. Very close to his comment is "When your house burns down, you better have something from the manufacturer saying it's ok to use the insulation". That got me to wondering if there's more to this than what the manufacturer is claiming, and that is what prompted me to reach out to this group for opinions. Sometimes people with real world experience have reasons for what they think, but so far I'm not convinced.

If it is part of a ul listed system and in their instructions it has been tested and proven to be safe. If I used that system I would not be afraid to use it. I just don't see the lack of insulation there to be an issue either.

 

[AlbergSteve]

That would be no measurable reduction on my bill.

Then I would be talking to my power provider and getting the meter looked at.

 

[weatherguy]

I've lowered my bill quite a bit with led bulbs, sorry op, I know this is straying from your question.

 

[trail guy Mike]

A chipmunk got into our attic and found his way into the sun-room stove ceiling thimble -- I think this is aka chimney support box -- and seemed to be storing nuts. Wife banged on it with a broom stick over a couple of days, and eventually the noise stopped.
Now she's concerned it's a fire hazard to use that stove. It's quite inaccessible to clean it out -- low end of a very low-pitch roof.

My opinion is that it's an insulated stainless chimney and would make an open space only slightly warm, and far short of a combustible temperature. But she's gone and bought an electric heater to keep that end of the house warmer.
We'd be putting a fire in that stove when the temps go below 20 at night.

I'd think a few inches of non-flammable insulation would be a good investment and zero fire hazard. Rodent proof would be even better.

 

[peakbagger]

Probably worth a seperate thread on LED bulbs energy savings.

 

[bholler]

A chipmunk got into our attic and found his way into the sun-room stove ceiling thimble -- I think this is aka chimney support box -- and seemed to be storing nuts. Wife banged on it with a broom stick over a couple of days, and eventually the noise stopped.
Now she's concerned it's a fire hazard to use that stove. It's quite inaccessible to clean it out -- low end of a very low-pitch roof.

My opinion is that it's an insulated stainless chimney and would make an open space only slightly warm, and far short of a combustible temperature. But she's gone and bought an electric heater to keep that end of the house warmer.
We'd be putting a fire in that stove when the temps go below 20 at night.

I'd think a few inches of non-flammable insulation would be a good investment and zero fire hazard. Rodent proof would be even better.

The top of that box should be closed off to prevent that

 

[St. Coemgen]

The inspector said the amount of energy loss is less than 1%. However his main point is the insulation is a fire hazard, he is really adamant about the safety of using it. Very close to his comment is "When your house burns down, you better have something from the manufacturer saying it's ok to use the insulation". That got me to wondering if there's more to this than what the manufacturer is claiming, and that is what prompted me to reach out to this group for opinions. Sometimes people with real world experience have reasons for what they think, but so far I'm not convinced.

Well, the inspector is just one guy. He may be biased. The OM may be biased. But you have one saying this, and another saying that. So you are stuck in 50-50 town. A terrible place to be. Maybe the inspector has local knowledge that trumps the OM, or maybe the local inspector is spitting nonsense....

So, when in doubt, I myself, and so suggest to, hire a local private professional rated to make a call, for a third party assessment. Get the professional opinion in writing, and go with that (whatever it is). In case of fire, you have something you can show in court, with insurance, etc.

 

[Bad LP]

Probably worth a seperate thread on LED bulbs energy savings.

Ya. Didn't mean for the drift. It was just part of an energy audit.
Point remains the manufacturer who obtained UL listing is the governing authority. The BI only confirms it was installed per those directions.