To rebuild or not to rebuild...

[bukes007]

Hello everyone, thanks for stopping by and sharing my misery...

Ok, it's not that bad... but still, I wasn't expecting my chimney to be completely dead.

I posted this back in January and I was very happy with everyone that took the time to respond to my post. https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads...-in-existing-masonry-with-rigid-liner.138929/

I just had two chimney companies come in and basically tell me that my chimney is going to have to be rebuilt and that it's pretty much junk. Rebuilding would basically mean that I would have to take my house apart (drywall in the living room to expose the chimney and all that... to my understanding).

So with that newly acquired information I have been playing around with the idea of simply installing my stove in a different location and not even using my chimney. My question is, what are your thoughts on rebuilding the chimney for my woodstove (25 feet straight up and out, in the middle of the house) vs installing the stove against the wall and having an up and out the side with the metal chimney run up the side of the house? From what I have read so far people really hate those metal chimneys that run along side the house.

Again, thank you to everyone who takes the time to help me figure out this mess I am in.

 

[Grisu]

Sorry for the bad news. Did they elaborate why the chimney is junk and needs to be rebuilt? Will the chimney need to be torn down at some point because it is unstable?

If it is possible to tear it down in the middle of the house I would not think about putting another brick chimney in there. Instead, class A in a chase will give you better performance and probably some more room to boot. Of course, the same could be done outside and more easily done in steps if you can only afford the stove and class A now while holding of on the chase.

 

[begreen]

Can you explain a bit more about why they are calling the chimney "junk". The mortar looks pretty good down in the basement. Is it just poorly designed or did they find specific faults that would prohibit running an insulated liner in it for the stove? Have you had a certified sweep look at the installation from this point of view?

Another option, if the chimney shows signs of serious deterioration above, then after it's removed consider replacing it with a metal chimney in the chase that will remain after the brick chimney is removed.

 

[firefighterjake]

If I had to rebuild or go with Class A . . . Class A.

Incidentally, I have Class A going out and up . . . wasn't sure I would like it . . . turns out due to the angle of the house no one really can see the chimney and draft issues have been a non issue. The nice benefit . . . sweeping the chimney is simple and relatively clean -- release three screws, pull out the cap in the T and sweep with the creosote falling down to the ground.

 

[bukes007]

Thanks for responding, guys.

Basically they said it was no good because it's in bad shape at the top. One chimney company went up in the attic and showed me pictures. There was tar etc everywhere and the mortar wasn't looking too good I guess. Here are some pics of the roof. They tarred the outside "in order to hide damage" is what they said. There is bubbling which isn't good either. They said that they can't say for sure until they get the cap (or whatever it's called) off and look down.

http://i.imgur.com/kamWmqj.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/qaty10P.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ZUMk37G.jpg

To add to this, there is what looks like creosote here:

http://i.imgur.com/B8QtoAb.jpg

The bottom of the chimney has been cemented, which I can't imagine being a good thing either.

If I had to put my money on a scenario here I would guess that the previous owners ran a wood burning appliance in this chimney without a liner.

I am leaning towards going with a class A chimney (I think that's what I mean). It would be out and straight up. Here's a pic of the location where it would go.

http://i.imgur.com/GD9xU7J.jpg (please hold your applause on my photoshop work lol)

From top of the foundation to the roof if about 12ft.

The only thing that bugs me is leaving the chimney as is and it just being a useless pile of brick...

 

[begreen]

12 ft is a short chimney. Be sure the new stove is an easy breather. Most modern stoves are going to want more like a 16ft chimney, but there are a few exceptions.

 

[bholler]

I dont see a reason from those pics to tear it all down. Roof line up rebuild yeah maybe even attic floor up But you already have a liner i would just rebuild the top. Are they saying the entire height of the chimney needs taken down and rebuilt?

 

[jotul?]

You need to have a bricklayer look at that chimney. That is a very simple chimney and easy to access. One man could tear that down below the roofline, rebuild, and install new flashing in a weekend at most. Unless the interior portion is faulty, which is rare, you should spend between $400 and $600 on that repair. It will still need a liner, but you need a second opinion IMHO.

 

[bholler]

you should spend between $400 and $600 on that repair. It will still need a liner, but you need a second opinion IMHO.

We charge quite a bit more than that for a rebuild hell there is $150 to $200 in materials there. They already have a liner it needs insulated but it is there

 

[jotul?]

there is $150 to $200 in materials there

Yep. I'd have $200 in material, put in an eight hour day, and put $400 cash in my pocket. Not a bad Saturday. String a bunch of those together, and you get yourself a trip to Jamaica in February.

 

[bholler]

Yep. I'd have $200 in material, put in an eight hour day, and put $400 cash in my pocket. Not a bad Saturday. String a bunch of those together, and you get yourself a trip to Jamaica in February.

Well yeah if someone is doing it as a side project maybe. But a pro with a helper and insurance and possibly permits ect. that is not near enough.

 

[Jo191145]

I'd agree that's a very easy rebuild from the roof up.

My biggest concern would be safety orientated.
How old is this chimney? Is it all brick that's been parged/stuccoed and why?
Is there a flue?

You stated a fear that the previous owner ran a woodstove without a flue in it.
If that's true that can be a bigger problem than what I see in the pictures. This creosote you see dripping can be created by rain water seeping through the masonry, mixing with creosote and running throughout the chimney. It can also be from improper usage of the stove with wet wood. Neither are great scenarios.
Once the masonry chimney is saturated with creosote the danger level increases.

You also mentioned bubbling? Are we to understand in the attic or roofline someone thought the chimney had at one time gotten hot enough to boil tar/roofing cement? I've never seen that myself but that would be a huge red flag if true.
Any bubbling of tar I've ever seen I attributed to sloppy installation practices.

Good time to go on record here. Anyone who has a bucket of tar should be promptly asked to leave the property. keep that in mind.

As you stated I think the real test is getting the cap/crown off and seeing what's inside that chimney. If it's not being used anyway that shouldn't be a big deal.
If there's no flue and it looks saturated with shiny creosote it may be best to abandon it.
If it still looks halfway decent how about putting a double wall preinsulated flexible liner down it?? This is more of a question for the pros on this forum wether that's a possible fix. It would have to be better than a single wall insulated or not but is it good enough? I don't know.

 

[bholler]

If there's no flue and it looks saturated with shiny creosote it may be best to abandon it.

no not necessarily. you clean it and line it with an insulated liner. it is done all the time.

 

[bukes007]

12 ft is a short chimney. Be sure the new stove is an easy breather. Most modern stoves are going to want more like a 16ft chimney, but there are a few exceptions.

It's 12 ish feet to the roof but the pipe would extend another 4-5 feet though?

 

[bukes007]

I dont see a reason from those pics to tear it all down. Roof line up rebuild yeah maybe even attic floor up But you already have a liner i would just rebuild the top. Are they saying the entire height of the chimney needs taken down and rebuilt?

They are saying that it doesn't look good but they won't know until they start taking it apart.

 

[begreen]

It's 12 ish feet to the roof but the pipe would extend another 4-5 feet though?

No, 12-18" maybe, but not 4-5ft unless class A chimney was attached to the top.

 

[bholler]

They are saying that it doesn't look good but they won't know until they start taking it apart.

well i would agree with that but honestly it is rare to see a chimney that needs to be completely taken down.

 

[bukes007]

well i would agree with that but honestly it is rare to see a chimney that needs to be completely taken down.

Thanks. This gives me hope actually. Since I have my 4 cords of wood sitting in the yard and my furnace is disconnected do you think it would be smart to install the stove with class A pipe out the side and up as discussed above and then this fall or next year look into fixing the chimney? End goal being to use the chimney eventually? Would a 6" hole in the foundation be easy enough to plug?

Sorry again guys, I'm a first time home buyer and am trying to learn the ropes. I just don't want to do anything that will result in a lot of money later kinda thing.

 

[bholler]

Thanks. This gives me hope actually. Since I have my 4 cords of wood sitting in the yard and my furnace is disconnected do you think it would be smart to install the stove with class A pipe out the side and up as discussed above and then this fall or next year look into fixing the chimney? End goal being to use the chimney eventually? Would a 6" hole in the foundation be easy enough to plug?
Sorry again guys, I'm a first time home buyer and am trying to learn the ropes. I just don't want to do anything that will result in a lot of money later kinda thing.

I am not there so i cant really advise that well but i would not spend the money on a class a chimney if you only plan on using it for a year or 2. Just spend the money and fix the chimney you have as long as it can be done.

 

[jotul?]

a pro with a helper and insurance and possibly permits ect. that is not near enough.

I am a pro. Local 9 Bricklayers Western Pa. 13 year Journeyman. I do agree that it's not enough, but where I live, you'd be lucky to get an easy little job like that. Abe the Amish man and his 12 year old son/daughter/laborer would under bid you by $100. I do agree too, that it is rare to find a chimney that needs completely removed. Keep the central location, put the money into the masonry and liner, be done for 20 or 30 years. After finding a reputable contractor that is; anyone who tars stuff that they're not being paid to tar, or have permission to tar, is trying to sell something that may not need sold.

 

[bholler]

but where I live, you'd be lucky to get an easy little job like that.

we get jobs like that all the time actually more than we can get done and we live in central pa surrounded by Amish and Mennonite. we just have the reputation for quality they do not.

 

[firefighterjake]

No comment about your situation bukes . . . but I was just in your city a few weeks ago . . . great place to visit. Loved seeing the Tidal Bore, folks were wicked friendly, good food . . . and even your hospital ER was fantastic!

 

[bukes007]

I am a pro. Local 9 Bricklayers Western Pa. 13 year Journeyman. I do agree that it's not enough, but where I live, you'd be lucky to get an easy little job like that. Abe the Amish man and his 12 year old son/daughter/laborer would under bid you by $100. I do agree too, that it is rare to find a chimney that needs completely removed. Keep the central location, put the money into the masonry and liner, be done for 20 or 30 years. After finding a reputable contractor that is; anyone who tars stuff that they're not being paid to tar, or have permission to tar, is trying to sell something that may not need sold.

Thanks so much for your professional input. I managed to get in there with the ol' camera phone. I hope this gives you a better idea... Seemed ok to me. I scraped at it with my fingernails and it seemed sturdy but I am no expert. I just can't wrap my head around the fact that they want me to tear it all down... I mean, there is a stainless steel liner there... all the smoke/burnt gases will be going up and out... why is my chimney a huge deal to all these installers? Again, as someone looking at this from a high level... it just doesn't make sense to me.

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No comment about your situation bukes . . . but I was just in your city a few weeks ago . . . great place to visit. Loved seeing the Tidal Bore, folks were wicked friendly, good food . . . and even your hospital ER was fantastic!

That's awesome! Yeah we can be pretty friendly... Watch out for the bad driving (especially in Dieppe ). Glad you enjoyed your stay.

 

[bholler]

Thanks so much for your professional input. I managed to get in there with the ol' camera phone. I hope this gives you a better idea... Seemed ok to me. I scraped at it with my fingernails and it seemed sturdy but I am no expert. I just can't wrap my head around the fact that they want me to tear it all down... I mean, there is a stainless steel liner there... all the smoke/burnt gases will be going up and out... why is my chimney a huge deal to all these installers? Again, as someone looking at this from a high level... it just doesn't make sense to me.

Well From what i can see i would say the liner needs pulled the chimney cleaned top rebuilt Patch any extra holes then insulate the liner and drop it again.

 

[jotul?]

we get jobs like that all the time actually more than we can get done and we live in central pa surrounded by Amish and Mennonite. we just have the reputation for quality they do not.

Congratulations. To the OP; find a union construction site and ask for the bricklayers trailer/foreman. Explain that you have a possible side job, and be prepared to leave your name and number. From the video you posted, someone burned a stove in that chimney for sure, liner or no. Every old house that has an uninsulated, unlined chimney has had a wood stove or fireplace burned in it; thats why the chimney was built in the first place. That doesn't make it appropriate for a modern stove or insert. Find someone who can tell you honestly if the chimney needs rebuilt. Keep in mind that the chimney at this point is really only a chase for the liner to live in. As long as the masonry is physically capable of standing up, the correct diameter, correctly installed liner that you purchase will do the rest.